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torbjornsaw 09-23-2010 07:31 AM

Breaking the will of the ego.
 
There is a fundamental requirement in spiritual pursuit that involves surrendering ones will. As long as there is repository of self-will that won't give up control there can't be an opening to something new. For example, if in the dojo we bring our own rules of conduct (whether religious injunctions, cultural and social norms, or personal preferences) we set ourselves in opposition to the prevailing standard. We impose our ways above the ones that are common to the dojo.

Many teachers allow this and see no imposition on their authority. But I would contend it because if our dojo is a place where we train in a spiritual discipline (as O Sensei would point out) then it is of utmost importance that we come to understand that the dojo is a sacred room where subduing our ego is the main aim of our practice. Without it we will never have to confront the strongholds in our belief structure. Upholding a set of rules in a religious context that where set in place in order to facilitate ego-death and self-surrender can not be used as the very reason not to obey dojo etiquette. Can you see how it contradicts the very essence of spiritual pursuit?

That's why it has been said that the back of the ego has to be broken. So it looses its tenacity to always have the last word. Once broken, or given up, it no longer serves as a justification for following ones owns rules. Spiritual freedom implies much more than rigid adherence to form, structure and tradition. True freedom lies in understanding surrender of ones owns mind. In the end even religious injunctions must be given up if the goal is absolute surrender to God, or truth if you prefer.

Dojo etiquette is there to facilitate self surrender: Be on time, be clean, behave, bow. So if this rubs you the wrong way it serves its purpose. The dojo is not less sacred than the church or the mosque so we can't allow ourselves to view it that way when it comes to our attitude. In foreign lands we are strangers and guests, so it's good form to humble ourselves and learn the ways of the hosts. This is itself self-surrender; not for your self but for the other.

Breaking the will of the ego will never be an acceptable practice to the ego. Self-surrender means letting go of fixed ideas, even good ones. It is my role as a teacher to point out these personal strongholds until they are all surrendered and given up. This is Aikido discipline. It is deeply spiritual.

Rabih Shanshiry 09-23-2010 07:58 AM

Re: Breaking the will of the ego.
 
Intersting post - thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I admit that I don't see Aikido as a spiritual discipline - although I do believe there are spiritual dimensions to it. Nor would I equate the sanctity of traditional houses of worship with the dojo.

If spiritual pursuit is the goal, I can think of many more fruitful paths than Aikido. Serving the less fortunate would be towards the top of that list.

In some ways, Aikido can be a selfish pursuit. And we find that inflated egos, politics, and greed are fairly commonplace among the teachers of the art. I never truly understood the idea of Aikido being a vehicle for world peace and conflict resolution when Aikido's highest ranked fail to exhibit these ideals among themselves.

Aikibu 09-23-2010 10:06 AM

Re: Breaking the will of the ego.
 
The idea that something like the ego must be "broken" in order to be "fixed" is an interesting one...Good luck with it. :)

William Hazen

C. David Henderson 09-23-2010 10:52 AM

Re: Breaking the will of the ego.
 
Is this violence directed towards perceived imperception?

If it is, won't that kind of self-denial feed the ego?

Since the ego is illusion, does not treating it as a thing to be bested give more energy to the illusion just as treating it as a thing to be heeded?

What is the middle way, with regard to one's ego?

Marc Abrams 09-23-2010 11:40 AM

Re: Breaking the will of the ego.
 
Quote:

Bjorn Saw wrote: (Post 264896)
There is a fundamental requirement in spiritual pursuit that involves surrendering ones will. As long as there is repository of self-will that won't give up control there can't be an opening to something new. .

Who's requirement? That "line," frequently given by the "shepherd"s to their "sheep" is simply a power player by the leader. Last time I checked, my self-will allows me to open myself up to something new all of the time. Frankly speaking, I far prefer autonomy to the idea that my own "self-will" is somehow not sufficient for me to live a sane, spiritual,..... life. If YOUR will is problematic for you to that extent, I am truly sorry!

Quote:

Bjorn Saw wrote: (Post 264896)
For example, if in the dojo we bring our own rules of conduct (whether religious injunctions, cultural and social norms, or personal preferences) we set ourselves in opposition to the prevailing standard. We impose our ways above the ones that are common to the dojo.

WOW! I am getting concerned about what your own rules of conduct must be if they are some how in opposition to prevailing standards. It has been my experience that the VAST MAJORITY of people that I have encountered in the martial arts world seem to have come to the dojos with their own rules of conduct that need little if any "tweeking" in order to work well in a dojo environment.

Quote:

Bjorn Saw wrote: (Post 264896)
Many teachers allow this and see no imposition on their authority. But I would contend it because if our dojo is a place where we train in a spiritual discipline (as O Sensei would point out) then it is of utmost importance that we come to understand that the dojo is a sacred room where subduing our ego is the main aim of our practice. Without it we will never have to confront the strongholds in our belief structure. Upholding a set of rules in a religious context that where set in place in order to facilitate ego-death and self-surrender can not be used as the very reason not to obey dojo etiquette. Can you see how it contradicts the very essence of spiritual pursuit?

When exactly was the last time that you had a conversation with O'Sensei regarding our training as a spiritual discipline? If YOUR ego needs subduing as a main aim of your practice, then I am once again concerned about you (as opposed to the Aikido community at large). Are you trying to start a religious sect called "Aikido"? Please do not assume that we need to "facilitate ego-death" and "self-surrender" in order to train sincerely. That kind of philosophical/religious/pseudo-psychological talk can be your own parameters. It is a whole other "ball of wax " asking others to assume them as part of their training.

Quote:

Bjorn Saw wrote: (Post 264896)
That's why it has been said that the back of the ego has to be broken. So it looses its tenacity to always have the last word. Once broken, or given up, it no longer serves as a justification for following ones owns rules. Spiritual freedom implies much more than rigid adherence to form, structure and tradition. True freedom lies in understanding surrender of ones owns mind. In the end even religious injunctions must be given up if the goal is absolute surrender to God, or truth if you prefer.

True freedom exists in one's ability to be responsible for one's choice of thoughts, feeling and actions. If you would like to surrender your mind, please be my guest. However, do not try to sell to autonomous beings the nonsense that a surrendered mind is even remotely akin to freedom.

Quote:

Bjorn Saw wrote: (Post 264896)
Dojo etiquette is there to facilitate self surrender: Be on time, be clean, behave, bow. So if this rubs you the wrong way it serves its purpose. The dojo is not less sacred than the church or the mosque so we can't allow ourselves to view it that way when it comes to our attitude. In foreign lands we are strangers and guests, so it's good form to humble ourselves and learn the ways of the hosts. This is itself self-surrender; not for your self but for the other.

Talk about dojo etiquette as it related to YOUR DOJO ONLY! If you consider pro-social behaviors to facilitate "self-surrender" then it it assumes that the self is not capable of pro-social behaviors? To me, that is a bizarre assumption. This may come as a surprise to you, but a dojo IS NOT a religious institution and should not be treated as such. Being culturally sensitive and pro-social is NOT a form of self-surrender, but appropriate, autonomous actions of a person with a healthy sense of self and interpersonal skills.

Quote:

Bjorn Saw wrote: (Post 264896)
Breaking the will of the ego will never be an acceptable practice to the ego. Self-surrender means letting go of fixed ideas, even good ones. It is my role as a teacher to point out these personal strongholds until they are all surrendered and given up. This is Aikido discipline. It is deeply spiritual.

You sound more like a cult leader than an Aikido instructor. If ANY one told me that a martial arts instructor was acting and speaking in this manner, I would tell them to not to join that dojo, or if he/she were already a student, leave ASAP! Your first post on "peace" I considered nothing more than someone "waxing poetic" about a topic with little real-life experience regarding the realities of peaceful and violent encounters. Your post is something that I find disturbing and needs to be talked about. I would be surprised to find even a good size minority of teachers who would support your views.

Marc Abrams

Russ Q 09-23-2010 12:33 PM

Re: Breaking the will of the ego.
 
Hi Bjorn,

You speak your mind (notice the lower case "m") as you see/understand "now"....hope you can take the heat buddy cause you have a long way to go to understanding aikido practice or how to observe your ego...as part of your whole Conciousness...you can enjoy ridding yourself of ego entirely when you're dead.

Cheers,

Russ

Nicholas Eschenbruch 09-23-2010 12:55 PM

Re: Breaking the will of the ego.
 
Bjorn,
maybe once a year we both enjoy a course in a dojo where the direction is very clear but the atmosphere free and caring, and where no wills are broken.

Surrendering the ego in practice is quite another thing than breaking the will through rules.

I think I would benefit more from your recent writing if it were more personal and less abstract and preachy. What is your concrete experience with all this stuff you write about? How has it moved you so much that you feel the need to relate it?

I look forward to training with you again some time next year, until then all the best

Nicholas

jbblack 09-23-2010 12:58 PM

Re: Breaking the will of the ego.
 
Bjorn Saw wrote:

"Breaking the will of the ego will never be an acceptable practice to the ego. Self-surrender means letting go of fixed ideas, even good ones. It is my role as a teacher to point out these personal strongholds until they are all surrendered and given up. This is Aikido discipline. It is deeply spiritual."

Marc Abrams wrote:

"You sound more like a cult leader than an Aikido instructor. If ANY one told me that a martial arts instructor was acting and speaking in this manner, I would tell them to not to join that dojo, or if he/she were already a student, leave ASAP! Your first post on "peace" I considered nothing more than someone "waxing poetic" about a topic with little real-life experience regarding the realities of peaceful and violent encounters. Your post is something that I find disturbing and needs to be talked about. I would be surprised to find even a good size minority of teachers who would support your views."

Interesting thoughts - however it sounds more like folks using different words to say something very much the same.

From: Aikido Arts of Shin-Budo Kai

"Training in this dojo is based upon two philosophical "pillars." The first, is "Mu Shin," which can be translated to mean "empty mind." It is important to clear our mind from the day and focus upon the immediate experience when entering the training area. At a deeper level, all of us must put aside our preconceived notions about what we can and cannot do, so that we can open ourselves up to truly learn from the training experience.

Our ability to execute Aikido techniques will greatly improve, when we can learn to "be in the moment". The second philosophical "pillar" is "Sho Shin," which can be translated to mean "beginner mind." All of us, including the instructors, must put our egos aside and be open to learn from all that we experience in the dojo."

http://www.aasbk.com/training.php#aik

However you say it, perhaps Breaking the Will of the Ego is a strong part of Aikido.

As we all know, if our cup is already full nothing new can enter.

Cheers,
Jeff

Marc Abrams 09-23-2010 01:20 PM

Re: Breaking the will of the ego.
 
Quote:

Jeff Black wrote: (Post 264910)
Bjorn Saw wrote:

"Breaking the will of the ego will never be an acceptable practice to the ego. Self-surrender means letting go of fixed ideas, even good ones. It is my role as a teacher to point out these personal strongholds until they are all surrendered and given up. This is Aikido discipline. It is deeply spiritual."

Marc Abrams wrote:

"You sound more like a cult leader than an Aikido instructor. If ANY one told me that a martial arts instructor was acting and speaking in this manner, I would tell them to not to join that dojo, or if he/she were already a student, leave ASAP! Your first post on "peace" I considered nothing more than someone "waxing poetic" about a topic with little real-life experience regarding the realities of peaceful and violent encounters. Your post is something that I find disturbing and needs to be talked about. I would be surprised to find even a good size minority of teachers who would support your views."

Interesting thoughts - however it sounds more like folks using different words to say something very much the same.

From: Aikido Arts of Shin-Budo Kai

"Training in this dojo is based upon two philosophical "pillars." The first, is "Mu Shin," which can be translated to mean "empty mind." It is important to clear our mind from the day and focus upon the immediate experience when entering the training area. At a deeper level, all of us must put aside our preconceived notions about what we can and cannot do, so that we can open ourselves up to truly learn from the training experience.

Our ability to execute Aikido techniques will greatly improve, when we can learn to "be in the moment". The second philosophical "pillar" is "Sho Shin," which can be translated to mean "beginner mind." All of us, including the instructors, must put our egos aside and be open to learn from all that we experience in the dojo."

http://www.aasbk.com/training.php#aik

However you say it, perhaps Breaking the Will of the Ego is a strong part of Aikido.

As we all know, if our cup is already full nothing new can enter
Cheers,
Jeff

Jeff:

I can only hope that you can notice a big difference between the idea of emptying one's mind and having to surrender one's ego.

When I talk about putting one's ego aside, I am simply referring to being open to learn from all experiences regardless of the rank of the person with whom you are training with.

Jeff I simply disagree with your suggestion that" However you say it, perhaps Breaking the Will of the Ego is a strong part of Aikido." What I do believe is that using your self to connect with other's in the moment can lead to very good and effective Aikido. Maybe, just maybe it is my training as a psychologist that leads me to look at the terms "ego", "self", .... differently than a layperson might.

That being said, I would never advocate what Bjorn wrote nor is anything that I have written about remotely similar to Bjorn's statements (regardless of how you might want to find some some perceived similarities).

Marc Abrams

Janet Rosen 09-23-2010 01:45 PM

Re: Breaking the will of the ego.
 
My reaction was much the same as Marc's.

I am not an 18 year old Marine recruit or a junkie walking into Synanon, to be handed over to Others to be broken down and reinvented, which is what the OP called to mind. I'm a mature person who already has her values and ethics and is very happy to abide by dojo etiquette but willing to (and has in the past) walked out of dojos that were not congruent with my values and ethics.

Bowing with beginner's mind and striving to be in the moment during training (what I call having open eyes, open mind, open heart) have NOTHING to do with terms like "surrender" or "submission" of any part of who I am.

Rather they are an embodiment of what I consider my best inner qualities, those I'm trying to polish while in the dojo.

C. David Henderson 09-23-2010 01:55 PM

Re: Breaking the will of the ego.
 
I don't see training towards empty-mind and beginners-mind as described in the Arts of Shin-Budo Kai excerpt being the same as breaking the ego either.

Of course, conscious ego-driven efforts to achieve empty- or beginners- mind as an act of will (that Will...) are as futile and self-defeating as ego-driven efforts to break the ego.

And both may be prone to leave behind the cloying scent of illusory achievement.

Marc Abrams 09-23-2010 01:58 PM

Re: Breaking the will of the ego.
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 264914)
My reaction was much the same as Marc's.

I am not an 18 year old Marine recruit or a junkie walking into Synanon, to be handed over to Others to be broken down and reinvented, which is what the OP called to mind. I'm a mature person who already has her values and ethics and is very happy to abide by dojo etiquette but willing to (and has in the past) walked out of dojos that were not congruent with my values and ethics.

Bowing with beginner's mind and striving to be in the moment during training (what I call having open eyes, open mind, open heart) have NOTHING to do with terms like "surrender" or "submission" of any part of who I am.

Rather they are an embodiment of what I consider my best inner qualities, those I'm trying to polish while in the dojo.

Janet:

I wish I was as eloquent as you! I guess that I have just seen too many victims of cults, that this kind of expressed thinking hits some raw nerves.

Our world has too many people who have already or are ready to give up their sense of autonomy to others who tell them how to live "better" lives. We would have a much saner world (and safer) if more people truly accepted personal responsibility for their actions and how they choose to interact with others.

Marc Abrams

Russ Q 09-23-2010 02:08 PM

Re: Breaking the will of the ego.
 
[quote]We would have a much saner world (and safer) if more people truly accepted personal responsibility for their actions and how they choose to interact with others./QUOTE]

Amen to that!

Russ

lbb 09-23-2010 03:38 PM

Re: Breaking the will of the ego.
 
Quote:

Bjorn Saw wrote: (Post 264896)
I would contend it because if our dojo is a place where we train in a spiritual discipline (as O Sensei would point out) then it is of utmost importance that we come to understand that the dojo is a sacred room where subduing our ego is the main aim of our practice.

Others have addressed other points; I'll confine myself to the "if" of this "if/then". If the dojo is a place where we train in a spiritual discipline, then all manner of things might be said to bollow -- but is that true? Many people have advanced arguments that O Sensei intended aikido to be a spiritual practice. I won't take issue with that, but the fact is that most of those who came after him did not share that understanding. Whether or not they wanted to is immaterial; the fact is that you will find few aikido sensei today who could clearly articulate the nature of the spirituality that aikido is meant to cultivate, much less act as a competent instructor of the practices intended to cultivate it.

So, even if O Sensei intended aikido to be a spiritual discipline, it isn't a spiritual discipline today. Some people will talk in vague and self-referential terms about how spiritual their time on the mat is, but "spiritual" feelings do not a spiritual discipline make. For aikido to be a spiritual discipline would require that the curriculum include instruction into what the desired spirituality was, and the practices by which it was pursued. That doesn't exist; hence, no "spiritual discipline".

Carl Thompson 09-23-2010 06:09 PM

Re: Breaking the will of the ego.
 
The ego comes from the Freudian structure of the psyche. All you people freaking out about having its back broken can rest assured that you still have an id and a superego in this analogy. Who needs an ego when you have a SUPERego heroically waiting in the wings to fly in and take over?

From what I could gather from the OP’s comments, the idea of breaking the controlling power of the part of your mind that purely seeks to gratify the id is another way of explaining masakatsu-agatsu (true victory being victory over the self). The will of the Freudian “ego” attaches you to the mere vehicle of the mind (i.e.: the body). This isn’t airy fairy spiritualism- it is the cultivation of a mind that manoeuvres that vehicle in a better way. It is being not less of a person but rather it is the idea of elevating yourself to be the best person you can be.

(…reaches for another beer…)

Marc Abrams 09-23-2010 06:24 PM

Re: Breaking the will of the ego.
 
Quote:

Carl Thompson wrote: (Post 264922)
The ego comes from the Freudian structure of the psyche. All you people freaking out about having its back broken can rest assured that you still have an id and a superego in this analogy. Who needs an ego when you have a SUPERego heroically waiting in the wings to fly in and take over?

From what I could gather from the OP's comments, the idea of breaking the controlling power of the part of your mind that purely seeks to gratify the id is another way of explaining masakatsu-agatsu (true victory being victory over the self). The will of the Freudian "ego" attaches you to the mere vehicle of the mind (i.e.: the body). This isn't airy fairy spiritualism- it is the cultivation of a mind that manoeuvres that vehicle in a better way. It is being not less of a person but rather it is the idea of elevating yourself to be the best person you can be.

(…reaches for another beer…)

Carl:

As I reach for my beer at the end of the day, I am thankful that you did not begin to talk about the ego from post-Freudian theories, Object Relations theories, etc. .........:freaky:

We can agree that we do not practice fairy spiritualism in our practice. As to other people, I am not so sure.....

Marc Abrams

RED 09-23-2010 07:29 PM

Re: Breaking the will of the ego.
 
With what I've read of everyone's posts on this thread; I applaud willingness to being honest with yourself, in any en-devour. Self awareness is key not just in Aikido, but is key in developing yourself in any area, IMO. I, again, applaud any effort of anyone to recognize the mentalities, biases, or weaknesses that might be keeping them from developing to their full potential. While these things might never be "broken" in a person's life; I think it is important to acknowledge they are there, for if nothing else but to keep them in check.
Basically, you can't get past anything that you refuse to see.

My two cents.
Peace.


PS: I find it interesting that this thread is active during Aiki-peace week.

niall 09-23-2010 08:07 PM

Re: Breaking the will of the ego.
 
Bjorn some people have been very critical. I hope you can accept the criticism without being defensive. That means without ego.

I have a problem with some of your language. Break? Subdue? Nothing natural about those words. And surrender comes after defeat.

If something is imposed on us from outside - from a teacher or from anywhere else - we are not freely giving up the ego.

And I hope you can find the irony here now that people have pointed it out. If you think you are a wonderful example to your students you might still have some work to do to throw away your own ego.

Actually reigi - dojo etiquette - is not to facilitate self-surrender (or perhaps it was in the Cobra Kai in the original Karate Kid). It is to show our true respect and thanks to the teacher and to each other. It is necessary in budo because the techniques can be dangerous and even lethal.

And I have no problem with people who don't think aikido is spiritual for them. But they can't tell me what it is to me or to anyone else. I hope my practice helps me to be a better person - to be unselfish and kind, for example. That is cutting away ego and that is spiritual and so I do agree with you about that.

Carl Thompson 09-23-2010 08:33 PM

Re: Breaking the will of the ego.
 
Quote:

Niall Matthews wrote: (Post 264926)
Bjorn some people have been very critical. I hope you can accept the criticism without being defensive. That means without ego.

So if he defends his idea, it means that the will of his ego has not been broken?

RED 09-23-2010 08:55 PM

Re: Breaking the will of the ego.
 
Quote:

Carl Thompson wrote: (Post 264927)
So if he defends his idea, it means that the will of his ego has not been broken?

I think everyone should just admit that they have an ego and get it over with.:p

Because, truth be told I'm a bitch like 90% of the time...and I'm pretty sure most people are too.
It's alright to admit to being human...everyone just has to keep their "ass-holeness" in check.

thisisnotreal 09-23-2010 08:58 PM

Re: Breaking the will of the ego.
 
irrespective of the choice of language; i believe the fact is that the concept of complete and utter ego ablation is the 'inner' secret of many of the so-called 'ways'. this is most often encountered in the search and cultivation for a state of mind...a 'way of being'. this has also been known as, and called, the 'embrace that smothers'. And it IMO is rightly to be feared. Yes...destruction is a kind of liberation.. But it is not the only kind.

Now it all depends entirely on how 'ego' is viewed. Is it the stubborn willful, prideful child that resists correction, growth, difficult truths? or is the thing that uniquely makes *you* *you*. To turn your back on the latter, the essence of who we are...I can only see as a betrayal of the highest order. It has been known though... sometimes black looks white, and up looks like down...

so hard to know another persons thoughts...let alone on paper.

just some random thoughts
M 2 c
josh

RED 09-23-2010 09:06 PM

Re: Breaking the will of the ego.
 
Quote:

Josh Philipson wrote: (Post 264931)
irrespective of the choice of language; i believe the fact is that the concept of complete and utter ego ablation is the 'inner' secret of many of the so-called 'ways'. this is most often encountered in the search and cultivation for a state of mind...a 'way of being'. this has also been known as, and called, the 'embrace that smothers'. And it IMO is rightly to be feared. Yes...destruction is a kind of liberation.. But it is not the only kind.

Now it all depends entirely on how 'ego' is viewed. Is it the stubborn willful, prideful child that resists correction, growth, difficult truths? or is the thing that uniquely makes *you* *you*. To turn your back on the latter, the essence of who we are...I can only see as a betrayal of the highest order. It has been known though... sometimes black looks white, and up looks like down...

so hard to know another persons thoughts...let alone on paper.

just some random thoughts
M 2 c
josh

I view pride not as stubbornness, because that in itself can certainly be a virtue. I find pride to be a sin of belligerent intellectual dishonesty. (About yourself, your place in the word and it's perception there of, in light of exceeding evidence there-of.)
Well you got to tear muscle to build muscle. Got to temper metal to make steal.
I see it that way. Sometimes there are parts of ourselves that get in the way of our actual potential. Like the "real you" is being smothered out by your less than moral attributes.
I think most of us are good people. But good people doing bad thing, myself included. Who you are should never be defined by your propensity to do evil. We all have that propensity, and to embrace the arrogance, negligence and bias of yourself is madness IMO.

There are limits to it, and I don't suggest taking it far. I just think it is common sense that sometimes you got to prune a tree for it's own good.

Keith Larman 09-23-2010 10:17 PM

Re: Breaking the will of the ego.
 
Man, I always knew having a degree in philosophy would pay off some day. Especially the extra work in religious studies with that focus on asian religions...

A link to my ideas on the OP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y

Yes, I'm joking... But I read this kind of stuff and that weird glaze forms over my eyes and I feel them rolling back in my head. Then I find a great urge to make a double martini... Hmmm, I've got some Bombay Sapphire I think...

And the sad part is that I really enjoy philosophy and psych discussions. However, some discussions... Well... See the link...

WilliB 09-23-2010 10:48 PM

Re: Breaking the will of the ego.
 
Quote:

Keith Larman wrote: (Post 264935)
Man, I always knew having a degree in philosophy would pay off some day. Especially the extra work in religious studies with that focus on asian religions...

A link to my ideas on the OP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y

Yes, I'm joking... But I read this kind of stuff and that weird glaze forms over my eyes and I feel them rolling back in my head. Then I find a great urge to make a double martini... Hmmm, I've got some Bombay Sapphire I think...

And the sad part is that I really enjoy philosophy and psych discussions. However, some discussions... Well... See the link...

"My friend the zomby Jonathan likes turtles"?.... sorry this is too esoteric for me. Where is the philosopical message?

Carl Thompson 09-24-2010 01:00 AM

Re: Breaking the will of the ego.
 
Quote:

Keith Larman wrote: (Post 264935)
Man, I always knew having a degree in philosophy would pay off some day. Especially the extra work in religious studies with that focus on asian religions...

If you have a degree, surely you must have learned how to make constructive criticisms, demonstrating compelling arguments, citing evidence and so on.


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