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-   -   Untrained ukemi (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18702)

Krystal Locke 09-19-2010 08:51 AM

Untrained ukemi
 
I work in security, deal with 1-3 fights a week. I have used some of my aikido to good effect, and some just doesn't show up. It has all been hampered by the fighters not knowing how to take ukemi for my techniques. Slows stuff down, changes things.

Anyway, I'm looking for resources, especially videos, of aikido done rather realistically (attack, timing, force) on folks with no dojo ukemi skills. Can anybody point me somewhere good?

Gorgeous George 09-19-2010 09:12 AM

Re: Untrained ukemi
 
Quote:

Krystal Locke wrote: (Post 264774)
I'm looking for resources, especially videos, of aikido done rather realistically (attack, timing, force) on folks with no dojo ukemi skills

That wouldn't be very safe, so I don't think you'll find anything.

Krystal Locke 09-19-2010 10:07 AM

Re: Untrained ukemi
 
Quote:

Graham Jenkins wrote: (Post 264775)
That wouldn't be very safe, so I don't think you'll find anything.

Perhaps not much, yeah.

Doesn't quite cut it to train a lot with beginners, though.

Gorgeous George 09-19-2010 11:02 AM

Re: Untrained ukemi
 
Quote:

Krystal Locke wrote: (Post 264779)
Perhaps not much, yeah.

Doesn't quite cut it to train a lot with beginners, though.

At like 5:20 of this video, Gozo Shioda slaps this untrained guy down - he doesn't look like he's got any ukemi, haha:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP9G-WXBUcE

Dave Plaza 09-19-2010 02:38 PM

Re: Untrained ukemi
 
Quote:

Graham Jenkins wrote: (Post 264780)
At like 5:20 of this video, Gozo Shioda slaps this untrained guy down - he doesn't look like he's got any ukemi, haha:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP9G-WXBUcE

haha indeed :D

WilliB 09-20-2010 12:28 AM

Re: Untrained ukemi
 
Quote:

Graham Jenkins wrote: (Post 264780)
At like 5:20 of this video, Gozo Shioda slaps this untrained guy down - he doesn't look like he's got any ukemi, haha:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP9G-WXBUcE

He slaps a talkshow host who at first does not want to attack a 74-year old and when is persuaded to do so expects to be rolled around softly like in the demonstration before, and not whacked in the mouth.

George S. Ledyard 09-20-2010 02:14 AM

Re: Untrained ukemi
 
Quote:

Krystal Locke wrote: (Post 264774)
I work in security, deal with 1-3 fights a week. I have used some of my aikido to good effect, and some just doesn't show up. It has all been hampered by the fighters not knowing how to take ukemi for my techniques. Slows stuff down, changes things.

Anyway, I'm looking for resources, especially videos, of aikido done rather realistically (attack, timing, force) on folks with no dojo ukemi skills. Can anybody point me somewhere good?

I have a video manual available on a simple system of take downs and restraints for law enforcement and security, They are meant to be non-injurious when used on resistant subjects who know no ukemi. It's basically a PowerPoint manual with video clips on a DVD so it's designed to take on a lap top to the edge of the mat and work off of it. It has to be viewed on a PV, not a Mac.

aikidodvds.com

Gorgeous George 09-20-2010 07:31 AM

Re: Untrained ukemi
 
Quote:

Willi Brix wrote: (Post 264809)
He slaps a talkshow host who at first does not want to attack a 74-year old and when is persuaded to do so expects to be rolled around softly like in the demonstration before, and not whacked in the mouth.

Thank you: you passed the interview - you've got the job.
Caring for blind people isn't a responsibility to be taken lightly, but with your grizzled, straight-forward demeanour in describing what things look like to people with functional eyes, I think you know what you're in for. Thank you, Jesub.

AsimHanif 09-20-2010 09:09 AM

Re: Untrained ukemi
 
Hi Krystal,
not sure if this is what you're looking for but we are beginning work on a vid now "Boxing for Aikido' focusing on conditioning and application. The application sequences will feature actual boxers ( and other fighters) attacking in real time. I think this vid will be dif from most of what I've seen out there now mainly because of the skill level of the attackers.
And yes, the aiki principles applied are not what most would calls 'clean'.
You can stayed tuned at our website for excerpts in the near future.
www.potomacaikikai.org

Russ Q 09-20-2010 10:41 AM

Re: Untrained ukemi
 
Krystal, buy George Sensei's instructional......worth every penny and focused on exactly what you're talking about.

Lan Powers 09-20-2010 09:37 PM

Re: Untrained ukemi
 
I second the praise for Ledyard Senseis video...
Very well presented.

Nafis Zahir 09-21-2010 02:06 AM

Re: Untrained ukemi
 
If you are doing security work, why are you worried about them taking ukemi?

Krystal Locke 09-21-2010 02:31 AM

Re: Untrained ukemi
 
Quote:

Nafis Zahir wrote: (Post 264841)
If you are doing security work, why are you worried about them taking ukemi?

Because I want them to be controlled as thoroughly and safely as possible. I do eventually have to let them up and sometimes I have to explain to the nice judge why I tore the tendons in someone's wrist or faceplanted a guy in the parking lot.

Because I actually am a nice person who needs to make mortgage. The engineering degree is apparently useless in my area, so I may as well pimp out my black belt.

Because I would like to represent my art well and fairly.

DonMagee 09-23-2010 01:56 PM

Re: Untrained ukemi
 
Quote:

Krystal Locke wrote: (Post 264843)
Because I want them to be controlled as thoroughly and safely as possible. I do eventually have to let them up and sometimes I have to explain to the nice judge why I tore the tendons in someone's wrist or faceplanted a guy in the parking lot.

Because I actually am a nice person who needs to make mortgage. The engineering degree is apparently useless in my area, so I may as well pimp out my black belt.

Because I would like to represent my art well and fairly.

"He attacked me, I grabbed him, he fell down while I was struggling with him and broke his arm. It all happened so fast, I was just trying to keep myself safe."

That is my prepared speech for anyone who asks me to explain myself after a fight.

RED 09-23-2010 07:51 PM

Re: Untrained ukemi
 
Having been around and with the friendships of law enforcement officers; there is a real and present need to disable, or force an attacker to submit without causing them harm or injury. There are just simply some examples where it is utterly inappropriate to injury your attacker. Example: I knew an officer who was struck by a belligerent pregnant woman. If his actions were to break her arm, or even so much as knock her down, he could lose his job, be sued, or even charged with a crime himself.
I personally have worked with children, and have been attacked by children in tantrums. I've worked with the mentally handi-capped, and have been attacked in ways that have caused me SERIOUS injury. Both instances, not appropriate to use excessive force.(there are actually laws that state what you can and can not do to defend yourself when attacked by the mentally deficient... and the laws don't leave you much recourse for self-defense in the end.)
Self defense has a lot to do with self-preservation. If your ass will end up fired or in jail for breaking grandma's hip, preserve yourself by not choosing to protect yourself against granny by knocking her down a flight of stairs. :P

Shinmai 09-25-2010 12:28 AM

Re: Untrained ukemi
 
Quote:

George S. Ledyard wrote: (Post 264812)
I have a video manual available on a simple system of take downs and restraints for law enforcement and security, They are meant to be non-injurious when used on resistant subjects who know no ukemi. It's basically a PowerPoint manual with video clips on a DVD so it's designed to take on a lap top to the edge of the mat and work off of it.

Sensi George, is that the video titled "Level One Defensive Tactics DVD-R PowerPoint Manual"?

Can the whole thing be copied to a Netbook's solid-state drive and run from there? My Netbook doesn't have a CD/DVD drive, but I can copy files across from a network drive.

Krystal Locke 10-02-2010 01:20 PM

Re: Untrained ukemi
 
Quote:

Don Magee wrote: (Post 264916)
"He attacked me, I grabbed him, he fell down while I was struggling with him and broke his arm. It all happened so fast, I was just trying to keep myself safe."

That is my prepared speech for anyone who asks me to explain myself after a fight.

If that's what happened, that's great. If it isn't, I dont lie well, certainly not in a court of law. Yes, I have the backup of a canned response based on training and experience. However, I dont want to have to use it beyond the occasional incident report.

DonMagee 10-06-2010 10:58 AM

Re: Untrained ukemi
 
Quote:

Krystal Locke wrote: (Post 265462)
If that's what happened, that's great. If it isn't, I dont lie well, certainly not in a court of law. Yes, I have the backup of a canned response based on training and experience. However, I dont want to have to use it beyond the occasional incident report.

My point was that I just don't complicate things.

What sounds better on a police report.

He attacked me with a lazy right cross, I slipped the punch and clinched, from there I noticed he had a horrible base, so I hooked in a standing kimura grip and threw him with harai goshi making sure to land on him as hard as possible, breaking his arm.

or

It all happened so fast! This guy was just coming at me, so I grabbed him to keep him from hitting me and we struggled, in the process of defending myself from his attack we fell to the ground and his arm was broken. I was really scared!

B'Dragon 10-07-2010 06:48 AM

Re: Untrained ukemi
 
There is an old video of O'Sensei using shihonage, I believe on a US marine. You should see the ukemi he tries to take.

IMHO, I believe when using Aikido on the 'untrained' your technique has to be very clear and strong, but not necessarily hard. Like working with a beginner in class but just a bit hard to produce your desired results. i.e. you may want to cause them some pain to give them a wake up call, but not an injury.

BTW, how long have you done Aikido and what style?

Regards...

Demetrio Cereijo 10-07-2010 12:35 PM

Re: Untrained ukemi
 
Quote:

Ralph Martin wrote: (Post 265834)
There is an old video of O'Sensei using shihonage, I believe on a US marine. You should see the ukemi he tries to take.

It was an MP, and the ukemi he tries is worth watching.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79PMWGtl0qM
(starting around 3:05)

Quote:

IMHO, I believe when using Aikido on the 'untrained' your technique has to be very clear and strong, but not necessarily hard. Like working with a beginner in class but just a bit hard to produce your desired results. i.e. you may want to cause them some pain to give them a wake up call, but not an injury.
You surely will find this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyT5VUDoggY) of Shioda Gozo very interesting, especially what can be seen from 0:50 until the end.

WilliB 10-07-2010 10:16 PM

Re: Untrained ukemi
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 265864)
It was an MP, and the ukemi he tries is worth watching.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79PMWGtl0qM
(starting around 3:05)

Looks like his shoulder will hurt.

I also found the falls that his students took from Iriminage at the beginning interesting. They turn it into a forward roll. Do many people do that? It sounds like a recipe for cauliflower noses to me.

C. David Henderson 10-08-2010 11:21 AM

Re: Untrained ukemi
 
I sometimes do if it seems right in the moment. Given the angles involved in those situations, it seems safe and easier than a back fall. Usually take a backfall.


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