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-   -   Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18684)

ctoor 09-14-2010 03:49 PM

Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab
 
I've been doing aikido since last year, and I am still having trouble with this technique. Uke comes in with a tsuki and I am supposed to step back and catch his wrist, turn it over, then walk behind him for a rotational irimi nage.

I can't seem to find any videos on Google or YT of anyone doing this technique. But, I can find a lot of videos of nage deflecting the tsuki and entering without stepping back. My teacher says to just do it and figure it out later.

Will this technique get easier to do? Is this good irimi nage practice if I am stepping back?

Thank you for your help!

mathewjgano 09-14-2010 05:45 PM

Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab
 
Quote:

Charles Toor wrote: (Post 264525)
I've been doing aikido since last year, and I am still having trouble with this technique. Uke comes in with a tsuki and I am supposed to step back and catch his wrist, turn it over, then walk behind him for a rotational irimi nage.

Which hand is grasping which and which way are you turning it over?

WilliB 09-14-2010 06:00 PM

Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab
 
Quote:

Charles Toor wrote: (Post 264525)
I've been doing aikido since last year, and I am still having trouble with this technique. Uke comes in with a tsuki and I am supposed to step back and catch his wrist, turn it over, then walk behind him for a rotational irimi nage.

I can't seem to find any videos on Google or YT of anyone doing this technique. But, I can find a lot of videos of nage deflecting the tsuki and entering without stepping back. My teacher says to just do it and figure it out later.

Will this technique get easier to do? Is this good irimi nage practice if I am stepping back?

Thank you for your help!

Come again? What is this business about "stepping back"? By definition, an irimi movement is stepping in, not back. This is not karate point sparring, where you hop back and forth...

And I donīt understand this wrist turning either. Do you have u-tube video to show what you mean?

ctoor 09-14-2010 07:02 PM

Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab
 
Hi, I'll try to describe it:

Nage and uke are both in ai hammi and nage has his left foot forward to start. Uke takes a step forward to tsuki with his back hand. Nage takes a step back and with his right hand captures the punch of uke like a kote gaeshi grip. At this point they are both in aihanmi again.

Nage then twists uke's hand outward (to the right) and steps in with his back leg (left leg). He then shuffles more behind uke, lets go of his wrist, and continues the irimi nage like shomenuchi iriminage with tenkan.

That is the one our teacher and assistant teachers are making us do again and again, but I cannot find any videos to help us get this right. Any ideas?

odudog 09-14-2010 07:45 PM

Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab
 
Do the technique very slow, over and over again. It will take time to get the body mechanics ingrained so just be patient.

From your description, after you grab uke's hand, I would use your hips to swing your right hand over to the right. This should help get uke off balance by twisting his/her body, protect you from a left punch, and get uke's right hand out of the way so that you have room to now safely step into the rear of uke with your left foot. Keep the momentum going as you slip into tenkan. You can either let go of uke's right hand or keep holding it until it is time to throw with the typical iriminage arm, personal choice.

Some techniques you will never find on video or ever have a name for. They are personal techniques of the Sensei. I have a new dvd of Yamada Sensei of the USAF and he stated the fact that some of the techniques he will show have no name and are his personal techniques. Something he made up and likes to do.

chillzATL 09-14-2010 08:57 PM

Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab
 
something like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc2gwrqIhWM

WilliB 09-14-2010 10:10 PM

Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab
 
Quote:

Charles Toor wrote: (Post 264531)
Hi, I'll try to describe it:

Nage and uke are both in ai hammi and nage has his left foot forward to start. Uke takes a step forward to tsuki with his back hand. Nage takes a step back and with his right hand captures the punch of uke like a kote gaeshi grip. At this point they are both in aihanmi again.

At this point you lost me already. Kotegaeshi? What you describe would be a nikkyo grip. Unless your joints are all reversed :-)

ctoor 09-14-2010 10:24 PM

Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab
 
Jason: that was close, except we have to go straight back, not off nicely to the side like the fellows in the video do. Also, ours is not that dynamic - straight back, then straight in and behind (while dodging uke's elbow).

I was noticing the comments on the YT thread. Is this no longer practiced by Aikikai? Thanks.

ctoor 09-14-2010 10:35 PM

Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab
 
Will: the grip feels like kote gaeshi grip, but you are right that the exact grip would lead to nikkyo in a different technique.

tim evans 09-14-2010 11:48 PM

Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab
 
Quote:

Charles Toor wrote: (Post 264539)
Will: the grip feels like kote gaeshi grip, but you are right that the exact grip would lead to nikkyo in a different technique.

Are you stepping back at a 45 degree angle (tenshin) with a circular block iirimi in cutting down and tenkan for irriminage? This is a 4th kyu test technique in the usaf.

ctoor 09-15-2010 01:42 AM

Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab
 
Hi Tim. Well, we step straight back in a straight line and try to catch that striking hand as we step back. It isn't like tenshin or an omote parry, for example - straight back. If we move 45 degrees to the inside, then I don't think we can do ura, and if we move 45 degrees to the outside then it is very hard to catch the tsuki anymore.

We are not allowed to step to the side - it must be straight back, capture, then cover a large distance to enter deep behind for irimi nage.

Do you guys have any advice for grabbing incoming tsuki fists?

giriasis 09-15-2010 01:44 AM

Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab
 
He is doing iriminage... not an irimi opening. Iriminage does not necessary dictate and "irimi" opening. Iriminage can be done from many openings out of tsuki. It is a little more challenging from a tenshin opening, which is what he is describing. The "step back" is called tenshin (not techin). It is step back on the diagonal allowing the nage to get off the line of the attack.

So....Make sure you are not stepping straight back. You should be on a slight diagonal.

Also, you should not be actually grabbing for uke's hand. As you step back on the diagonal and getting yourself off the line of attack, you forward hand should sort of cut down of top of uke's forearm and then slide down to his wrist.

So if you started with your left foot forward, you should now be right foot forward.

At this point you start to turn uke's wrist over using a nikkyo type grip. Ukes thumb should go down towards the ground and back up, not over and then down. When you have uke's wrist locked, you step through with the rear foot while also raising up uke's arm as if you were doing ikkyo exercise. As you step in, you can begin to release the grip, let you hand slide down back towards uke's elbow and still control uke's elbow as you execute the iriminage through.

Points to consider, watch your maai or distance. Make sure uke would actually strike you if you did not move. Make sure uke is not tracking you as you step back off the line of attack (insincere uke's will do this). When doing this tenshin opening, it is vital that you do not step back to far away from the uke. If you are reaching forward to much you are to far away. (also if you are too close you will feel bunched up in your arms.) Make sure you do not step straight back as you are still on the uke's line of attack.

Also, as you are drawing your hand down ukes arm to grab the wrist try to draw uke into your center. You will sortof be bringing ukes strike forward on off center as you are stepping back slightly on a diagonal. As this point Uke should be off balance.

Finally, your motion for all of this should start and end with your center.

And, finally, fianally, play with it some more and ask your sensei or senior student. As your partner what he feels or doesn't feel. Be quizzical to figure out how it works.

giriasis 09-15-2010 01:49 AM

Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab
 
Charles, I just caught your post that you only step straight back. I bet you do step off the line some or get off the line somehow. It could just be the hips. But watch your sensei's feet first and then watch his hips. The secret is always in the hips. Watch your distance and your timing.

David Yap 09-15-2010 01:50 AM

Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab
 
Quote:

Charles Toor wrote: (Post 264531)
Hi, I'll try to describe it:

Nage and uke are both in ai hammi and nage has his left foot forward to start. Uke takes a step forward to tsuki with his back hand. Nage takes a step back and with his right hand captures the punch of uke like a kote gaeshi grip. At this point they are both in aihanmi again.

Nage then twists uke's hand outward (to the right) and steps in with his back leg (left leg). He then shuffles more behind uke, lets go of his wrist, and continues the irimi nage like shomenuchi iriminage with tenkan.

That is the one our teacher and assistant teachers are making us do again and again, but I cannot find any videos to help us get this right. Any ideas?

Charles,

The initial movements are similar to Tzuki Ikkyo Ura. Once you move into the Uke's side, turn your hips and extend your arm that is holding the Uke's wrist downwards causing Uke to be off-balanced - shifting his weight to his front foot. Once Uke is off-balanced, place your free hand on the side of his neck (this is the center, do not pull or push his neck), release his wrist and use the free hand to execute irimi-nage by stepping forward towards Uke's back foot.

Hope this will help.

David Y

giriasis 09-15-2010 01:57 AM

Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab
 
Okay...well, this is a 4th kyu test...but at 5:13 is Tsuki Iriminage. The first one is with an irimi opening, the second one is with a tenkan. The third is tsuki iriminage when you step straightback and get caught in the line of the attack. The fourth, is performed a little better where he gets slightly of the line of attack, although he's still a little to close. (I recorded this video by the way.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldhZ0pBZkh4 Is this what you are talking about? This is what I think you are talking about.

ctoor 09-15-2010 02:19 AM

Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab
 
Anne Marie: I appreciate your step-by-step instructions. They are clear. With that in mind, I took David's advice and looked for tsuki ikkyo ura videos and I found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdApsXfXvzU

The nage in this clip moves straight back as my teacher and seniors want me to move, then enters and proceeds to do ikkyo ura. I don't feel safe when I practice this (as irimi nage) in class but I am told to not ask questions, just to do it. Okay.

Anne Marie: From what you described (move off at 45 degrees (inside?)) I feel comfortable moving into ikkyo omote because I am in front still, but the distance seems huge to get all the way around and behind for ura irimi nage.

If I move straight back there is less distance to make up for, but feel unsafe b/c uke can ram or kick.

Tim: Is there a clip of the USAF 4th kyu tsuki irimi nage you mentioned online (with the step back hand grab)? All I can find is many, many clips of tsuki irimi nage where nage enters right away, never stepping back.

Thanks for the help everyone!

ctoor 09-15-2010 02:40 AM

Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab
 
I found a video of Yamada Sensei showing 4th kyu techniques. At [2:50] he shows two tsuki irimi nage. The second one looks close to the one I think Anne Marie was describing, which is nice. I noticed that Yamada Sensei does not grab the tsuki wrist at all. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--S-w3L-rRs

Anne Marie: Thank you for the video post - that nagae's third tsuki irimi looks like how you described, and with no wrist grab... kind of along the lines of how Yamada Sensei shows it. I like it.

I'm starting to think that for this version it is better to do tenshin and cut/parry at the elbow and to not capture the wrist as the initial movement. This is neat to get advice from all of you.

David Yap 09-15-2010 02:42 AM

Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab
 
Quote:

Charles Toor wrote: (Post 264542)
Do you guys have any advice for grabbing incoming tsuki fists?

Charles,

You cannot grab an incoming tzuki fist. First you need to deflect the punch with an open hand. Keeping that hand close to Uke's fist, then only you can grab his wrist. My advice is to time your stepping back with Uke's punch/step. If you move before he does, you become a moving target and he may get you when you are not rooted, and If you move faster than the strike, you may create an opening for the Uke to re-direct the strike.

If you move directly backward in a straight line as a karate-ka would do, then you should do what a karate-ka would do after the block, i.e. an uraken (back fist to the face). But, of course, we do not actually contact in aikido; it is just a feint to distract him or cause him to raise his other arm (which by the way is not away on vacation as most people would assume :D ).

How you step backwards depend on your kamae. Nobody will tzuki/punch you for the sake of punching. You initiate that by offering an opening, sort of like inviting him to punch. If you in a hanmi kamae with your back foot behind your front, one hand in front at shoulder level and the other in front of your abdomen leaving little opening for a punch then, martially/logically, it is very unlikely that I will step forward to punch you. Every attack creates an opening that awaits a response and vice versa ;) .

The rest you can figure it out.

Happy training

David Y

PS Do not move 45 degree backward. You are not exactly off the line of attack. In fact you are still in line of attack from the other arm. The direction should be between 5-6 O'clock. Don't take my words, work it out with an Uke.

grondahl 09-15-2010 04:54 AM

Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab
 
You cant grab a punch. Itīs as simple as that.
What you can do is to make contact and affect the balance of uke. Itīs very important to move backward with the intention still directed forward, you dont want to have the feeling of escaping or fleeing. While moving backwards, cut down (in your own center) along the arm of uke. The cutting motion goes from the shoulder to the wrist and starts making contact along the biceps. Drop your hips during the cut and transfer the drop to the arm of uke. If this is done successfully you have compromised the balance of uke and created a small opening.
Remember to be quite relaxed in your arm during the cut and to move backwards in a small angle.

phitruong 09-15-2010 07:14 AM

Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab
 
grab punch, bad idea. bad habit. at least from my point of view. folks who know how to punch don't just leave it out there. they will draw back and throw another or something else. personally, i prefer to step in and deflect/connect uke's elbow so that i am in the position to throw a punch into uke's ribs or kidney or behind the ear. once i am there, iriminage is a foregone conclusion. that's just me being paranoid about the other person ability to fight.

Basia Halliop 09-15-2010 08:41 AM

Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab
 
Are you sure they literally want you to step _straight_ back? It's not that you're doing something like stepping _too far_ off to the side and getting into the range of uke's other hand, and are being corrected for that? Certainly if you step too far off to the side that can easily cause problems. But it would be very unusual in the Aikido I've seen and been taught, to intentionally stay in the direct line of an attack...

Personally I have also always been taught not to try to grab a moving punch -- deflect/block first, then switch to the grab.

The version of this entry that I know involves stepping back and off the line slightly to the inside while slapping uke's fist down with the ai-hanmi hand, quickly grasp with gyaku-hanmi hand so ai-hanmi hand is free for an atemi to the face, then switch back to ai-hanmi hand and do something kind of like an ikkyo while entering on the outside to get to a position where you can do iriminage. (sounds like a lot of hand changing, but it really isn't once it becomes a reflex)

Or there's also the tenshin more like the one Yamada Sensei is doing in the video posted -- with a cutting kind of block similar to how you might do it if it were yokomenuchi... bringing uke a bit in front of you with the cut and then sliding more deeply behind for the iriminage.

Of course styles vary from dojo to dojo, though.

On our 4th kyu test we don't usually get asked for the tenshin entry from tsuki, though... just the tenkai (for omote) and tenkan (for ura).

Basia Halliop 09-15-2010 08:55 AM

Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab
 
Quote:

Anne Marie: I appreciate your step-by-step instructions. They are clear. With that in mind, I took David's advice and looked for tsuki ikkyo ura videos and I found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdApsXfXvzU

The nage in this clip moves straight back as my teacher and seniors want me to move, then enters and proceeds to do ikkyo ura. I don't feel safe when I practice this (as irimi nage) in class but I am told to not ask questions, just to do it. Okay.
I would not describe what he's doing as stepping straight back -- his orientation changes as he steps back so his torso is no longer in the path of the strike - it's particularly clear at 0:40 seconds, 0:50 seconds... He's moving to the side, but no more than he has to, and also part of the getting off the line of attack is accomplished just by hip rotation. If this is what you mean when you say 'stepping straight back' then that may be the source of much of the confusion people are having in this conversation.

giriasis 09-15-2010 09:27 AM

Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab
 
//Anne Marie: I appreciate your step-by-step instructions. They are clear. With that in mind, I took David's advice and looked for tsuki ikkyo ura videos and I found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdApsXfXvzU //

The video is what I was trying to describe. The video I provided (which is the USAF 4th kyu test requirements), the nage did not properly lift the arm up across of him in the front, yet he also did not do a 45 degree rotational turn. Tenshin is not necessarily a big 45 degree rotational turn. It is step back on a slight diagonal. If you take a 45 degree step then you will to far away. In my video, he is demonstrating 3 variations to Tsuki Iriminage. The third and fourth ones are his best attempts with a tenshin opening. In the third one, he stepped straight back, and look what happened - he got hit.

In the video you provided, the nage is not stepping exactly straight back, either. Watch his legs and hips. He is stepping back slightly off the line of the attack and rotating his hips to continue to be off the line of attack and to draw uke off-balance. If you step exactly straight back you will get hit by uke's tsuki. Watch the foot movement and the hip rotation, nage is taking is off the line of the attack.

Also notice in the video regarding the "grab", he is not literally grabbing uke's punch in midair. He glances his hand down uke's forearm and lets his hand slide down to uke's wrist. You can not grab a punch. If uke had a knife, you could end up grabbing his blade.

giriasis 09-15-2010 09:34 AM

Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab
 
Quote:

Charles Toor wrote: (Post 264548)
I found a video of Yamada Sensei showing 4th kyu techniques. At [2:50] he shows two tsuki irimi nage. The second one looks close to the one I think Anne Marie was describing, which is nice. I noticed that Yamada Sensei does not grab the tsuki wrist at all. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--S-w3L-rRs

Anne Marie: Thank you for the video post - that nagae's third tsuki irimi looks like how you described, and with no wrist grab... kind of along the lines of how Yamada Sensei shows it. I like it.

I'm starting to think that for this version it is better to do tenshin and cut/parry at the elbow and to not capture the wrist as the initial movement. This is neat to get advice from all of you.

Yes, that is similar to what I'm describing. However, the empasis is on the bigger and more dynamic movement. You can also raise the arm up in nikkyo/ikkyo motion, enter like you are doing ikkyo ura, but continue with the iriminage technique. But, I think the video that Charles posted is what he is looking to do. The concepts/principles are the same. One emphasizes larger more dynamic circular movement, the other empahsizes smaller less-dynamic circular movement.

C. David Henderson 09-15-2010 09:34 AM

Re: Tsuki Iriminage - Step back hand grab
 
Lots of good advice here, particularly about the angle of the "entry" and the difference between "catching" uke's arm and making connection -- points that will prove themselves equally important in a whole variety of techinques.


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