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-   -   14 jo kata (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1854)

kowey 05-08-2002 10:59 AM

14 jo kata
 
So, i finally got around to asking about the 31 jo kata at my dojo, and found that there also exists a 14 jo kata (!)

I can't seem to find any information on the net about this. Would anyone have any idea? It seems like a good way to learn some of the movements for the bigger kata, especially the transition from one movement to another.

Book/vid reccs that mention this mini-kata also welcome.

Thanks!

Brian Vickery 05-08-2002 01:48 PM

Re: 14 jo kata
 
Quote:

Originally posted by kowey
So, i finally got around to asking about the 31 jo kata at my dojo, and found that there also exists a 14 jo kata (!)

I can't seem to find any information on the net about this. Would anyone have any idea? It seems like a good way to learn some of the movements for the bigger kata, especially the transition from one movement to another.

Book/vid reccs that mention this mini-kata also welcome.

Thanks!

Hello Eric,

Here's a link to get you started with jo kata:

http://aikiweb.com/humor/fudebakudo1.html

Enjoy!

thomson 05-08-2002 02:57 PM

Heres O'sensei doing jo kata...
 
Howdy Eric,

Here is O'sensei doing a 13 jo kata.
http://www.aikidofaq.com/video/bookman_13_kata.mov

Mike :D

MikeE 05-08-2002 03:13 PM

There are a whole bunch of Aiki-jo kata.

In our style (IAA), there are 5 that range from 22 steps to 8 steps. We also have kumijo that are a blast.

The worst part of my training was going from one style to another and having to relearn kata for both jo and bokken.

Tended to get frustrating.

Good luck on your quest.

akiy 05-08-2002 03:17 PM

Re: Heres O'sensei doing jo kata...
 
Quote:

Originally posted by thomson
Here is O'sensei doing a 13 jo kata.
http://www.aikidofaq.com/video/bookman_13_kata.mov

I'm very sure this isn't the founder doing the kata. If I remember correctly, it's Marvin Bookman...

-- Jun

thomson 05-09-2002 10:41 AM

Oops!
 
You are most likely correct, Jun. Its kinda grainy and I thought the fellow looked like O'sensei in his younger years. Oh well...c'est la vi! :rolleyes:

Mike :D

Paul Clark 05-09-2002 11:23 AM

Eric

Iwama style has numerous jo kata, one of them may be the 31 jo kata you refer to, and there is a 13-jo kata as well which may be the "14" you're looking for.

If this sounds like what you're looking for, I highly recommend the "Bukiwaza" CD available from Yellow Springs Aikido in YS, Ohio. You can order them from the website here, but you can't do a credit card thing from the web so will have to call or mail a check:

http://www.ysaohio.com/videos.htm

The CD has video clips of the complete Iwama weapons curriculum as taught by Saito Shihan, including jo and bokken suburi, awase, jo kata (13 and 31), kumijo (31 and 1-10), kumitachi (1-6), and ken tai jo (1-7) plus variations, jo dori, tachi dori, tanken dori, etc, all done slowly so you can see what's happening, great for study.

Hope that helps.
Paul

Mares 05-09-2002 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul Clark
Eric

The CD has video clips of the complete Iwama weapons curriculum as taught by Saito Shihan, including jo and bokken suburi, awase, jo kata (13 and 31), kumijo (31 and 1-10), kumitachi (1-6), and ken tai jo (1-7) plus variations, jo dori, tachi dori, tanken dori, etc, all done slowly so you can see what's happening, great for study.

Hope that helps.
Paul

I thought there were only 5 kumitachi?

Paul Clark 05-09-2002 09:14 PM

Yup, 5, plus the ki musubi no tachi, but I figured why confuse the innocent?

Paul

Mares 05-10-2002 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul Clark
Yup, 5, plus the ki musubi no tachi, but I figured why confuse the innocent?

Paul

Ahh good. Thank you for the clarification. I thought I was missing one. :confused: But I'm a happy a camper now:)

computerdog 06-05-2002 06:30 AM

This is a diffecult question. Several sensei's have created kata so you will find more than 1 31 kata for example. Also, depending on teacher, you might find that the counting is different. Some movements can be splitted or can be done in 1 count.
Remeber that kata is not a martial form. It is a way to learn basic techniques to large groups of students.

Erik

Greg Jennings 06-05-2002 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by computerdog

Remeber that kata is not a martial form. It is a way to learn basic techniques to large groups of students.

While that contains a sliver of truth, it certainly is not the whole story.

I refer the reader to http://www.koryubooks.com/ . Do a search on "kata" and start reading.

Best Regards,

aiki_what 06-05-2002 07:29 AM

Kata
 
I concur with Greg (BTW that was a great article!). How else could one practice transition of movement throughout technique?

Greg Jennings 06-05-2002 08:34 AM

In many traditions, the foundational concepts of the art are taught and preserved in kata.

Also, closer to home, most of our training in aikido is a form of kata training.

I don't want to come off sounding like I think I'm an authority. To the best of my understanding, the above is common knowledge.

Best Regards,

computerdog 06-06-2002 05:38 AM

Thanks Greg, that is a great article. That indeed is more complete than what I was telling in my best English :cool:
However, I would not say that most techniques are a form of kata. It might be possible to train it this way, but do not forget that kata is a strikt form. The techniques as we train them in Aikido will change depending on how tall, how heavy or how strong the training partner is. Therefore I would not call this a kata training at all.
Can someone agree with this? :circle:

Greg Jennings 06-06-2002 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by computerdog
However, I would not say that most techniques are a form of kata. It might be possible to train it this way, but do not forget that kata is a strikt form. The techniques as we train them in Aikido will change depending on how tall, how heavy or how strong the training partner is. Therefore I would not call this a kata training at all.
Can someone agree with this? :circle:

"Kata", in Japanese, means "shape" or "form".

Mostly (except for jiyuwaza and randori), we do pre-arranged attacks and pre-arranged techniques. We're learning the "form" of the technique under a set of constraints.

We go through a "shu ha ri" cycle from merely learning the outer form through being able to spontaneously generate variations.

How is that not kata training?

See: http://www.aikidojournal.com/article...?ArticleID=722 .

Best Regards,

ALine Filipe 09-03-2005 09:36 AM

Re: 14 jo kata
 
hi there! :D

does anyone can help me? How many katas does exist? :confused:

at my dojo we don't talk about the 31-kata but the 1st, the 2nd, etc.

kisses

JohnSeavitt 09-06-2005 03:29 PM

Re: 14 jo kata
 
Quote:

Erik Struys wrote:
The techniques as we train them in Aikido will change depending on how tall, how heavy or how strong the training partner is. Therefore I would not call this a kata training at all.

I would happily agree that there is no kata in aikido, though not for the reasons you cite. Indeed, some aikido schools don't refer to their weapons work as kata, in fact.

Kata ('form', as already mentioned) in the koryu arts are the pedagogical tool through which waza are taught. Kata certainly do require adjustment for how tall the opponent is, or how rough the ground is - you can't just do it rote and walk into the sword, neh?

Still, I hesitate to think of gendai arts as being kata-driven study. The koryu weapons kata were initially formulated by folks who were testing them on battlefields or duels. Historical drift notwithstanding, there was some sort of nonsubjective validation there. Aikido weapons have their pedagogical purpose, but they are profoundly removed from koryu weapons, and are not tested or - in this day and age - testable. Kata teaching (in my head at least) doesn't refer just to the method, but also the content. I can make up kata for my school of squirrel-ninja-jutsu, but ...

There's some in-between ground, of course. Kendo and judo have kata that connect back to koryu as part of the contemporary curriculm. Still, regardless of what one wants to call it, I can't really see koryu kata and gendai 'kata' as being the same thing.

John

Hanna B 09-07-2005 05:57 AM

Re: 14 jo kata
 
Quote:

Eric Kow wrote:
So, i finally got around to asking about the 31 jo kata at my dojo, and found that there also exists a 14 jo kata (!)

I have heard of several unusual jo kata being transferred in different lines of aikido. I have encountered the 7 kata, which basically is the first seven movements of the 31 kata, and then there is another form that goes with it so you can do paired practise - I think it was called the 9 kata but I am not sure. There is also a bokken version of this "counter kata" - that one is fun paired practise!

If your dojos 14 kata is not a differently counted version of the 13 kata, then I think it will be very difficult to find any info on it outside your dojo. If you want small kata since the 31 kata is too big a chunk, why don't you choose a part of it to start with? There is plenty of info on the 31 kata on the net and in books, which is a good help in memorizing. The fine details should be picked from your dojo though, since details differ.

grondahl 09-07-2005 06:21 AM

Re: 14 jo kata
 
At Hanna. There┤s the 6 kata, thats also often used as a paired awase-excercise. Both practitioners mirroring each other.
The 6-step kata is actually a part of the 31-kata( step 13-18.). You can also speed it up and doing it in 5,4,3,2 or just 1 step.

At John Seavitt: I recall that Prof. P Goldsbury wrote a series of blogs over at Aikidojournal.com regarding kata, and it seems that learning by kata is something that permeates trough japanese society, not only koryu bugei but also karaoke is learned by kata practice.

Hanna B 09-07-2005 07:08 AM

Re: 14 jo kata
 
Peter, I am not entirely sure if we are talking about the same thing or not but probably we are. Probably it is the 6 kata, not 7 - yes thinking about it, it is. It's been a while, and I never was particularly focussed on the weapons practise...

I have seen - and done - the mirroring partner practise too, but I am talking about a separate form for the other partner, done either with jo or with bokken - if with bokken it is slightly different, of course. I am not surprised you don't have this in the Iwama line, I have it from the Kobayashi line of Aikikai so this counter-form could very well be an invention of either Kobayashi sensei or Igarashi sensei. My point of bringing it up was exactly this; different forms exist in different lines of aikido.

If you want to see the counter form to the 6-kata you can ask someone from Iyasaka aikidoklubb to show you. It is not included in their grading curriculum, but they do it every now and then. ┼ke Bengtsson, among others, likes teaching it.

JohnSeavitt 09-07-2005 04:51 PM

Re: 14 jo kata
 
Quote:

Peter Gr÷ndahl wrote:
I recall that Prof. P Goldsbury wrote ... kata is something that permeates through japanese society, not only koryu bugei but also karaoke is learned by kata practice.

No question. There's also a book, targeted at folks who want to avoid some pitfalls while doing business in Japan, that makes the same point. It's a pedagogy quite unlike Western learning, but there's something to be said for it in at least some settings. I've studied Japanese that way - acting out little skits - and tea ceremony is taught that way.

Still, I think that it isn't crazy to distinquish something that I am learning by "watching and copying" from "kata". Koryu arts and kendo have kihon, which are very basic waza. They're often taken from the kata for study of basic concepts, and they learned the same way ("do it like I'm showing you"). However, they aren't kata - they're just a piece.

Regardless, to each their own - I'm off topic here.

John


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