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-   -   When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18470)

Gorgeous George 08-03-2010 06:30 PM

When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?
 
...and why?

When you're being pinned, at what point should you turn your face, so that you can't see tori/nage, and expose the back of your head?

I'd say: when tori has you secured...? - So that you stay 'live' until that point, and can take advantage of any openings that are presented...?
Am I wrong?

What are the opinions on this?

Steven 08-03-2010 06:45 PM

Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?
 
I turn away simply so I don't get my face kicked. Though come to think of it, having my faced kick may be an improvement on my looks.

As for staying "live", well .... one could argue you shouldn't have to SEE it with your eyes to stay "live". What if you're blinded or it's pitch black?!? You should be able to "feel" the other person's energy and connection or lack thereof.

Gorgeous George 08-03-2010 06:50 PM

Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?
 
Quote:

Steven Miranda wrote: (Post 262418)
I turn away simply so I don't get my face kicked. Though come to think of it, having my faced kick may be an improvement on my looks.

As for staying "live", well .... one could argue you shouldn't have to SEE it with your eyes to stay "live". What if you're blinded or it's pitch black?!? You should be able to "feel" the other person's energy and connection or lack thereof.

Good point about getting kicked - but then, isn't getting hit in the face preferable (by some small degree) to getting hit in the back of the head?

And if you can't see, but detect an opening and move into it, then you could move straight into a strike; whereas if you can see where you're going...
I know what you're saying though.

Janet Rosen 08-03-2010 06:55 PM

Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?
 
When it feels like the right thing to do... sounds fatuous or inane, but I really can't explain it any better than that.

Steven 08-03-2010 07:00 PM

Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?
 
Agree with Janet. Also, depends on the technique as for turning away. What technique did you have in mind?

Whether tori has you secured or not, turning your head exposes the back of the head. So the technique will dictate uke's response as well as the tori's execution.

Gorgeous George 08-03-2010 07:01 PM

Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 262421)
When it feels like the right thing to do... sounds fatuous or inane, but I really can't explain it any better than that.

As I say: for me, this point is when I have been secured.

I spent an, erm, interesting evening training in 'Ki Aikido' for the first time, and it has spurred this question (along with a few others - like 'What is aikido?').

Mark Gibbons 08-03-2010 07:03 PM

Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?
 
Quote:

Graham Jenkins wrote: (Post 262419)
Good point about getting kicked - but then, isn't getting hit in the face preferable (by some small degree) to getting hit in the back of the head?
.

Front - fleshy painful parts, vulnerable eyes, delicate bones.
Back - mostly thick bone.

Not even a close call in my opinion.

Mark

Gorgeous George 08-03-2010 07:03 PM

Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?
 
Quote:

Steven Miranda wrote: (Post 262422)
Agree with Janet. Also, depends on the technique as for turning away. What technique did you have in mind?

Whether tori has you secured or not, turning your head exposes the back of the head. So the technique will dictate uke's response as well as the tori's execution.

I guess the ikkyo pin - but that can go into a load of others, so any of them really.

Daniel Lloyd 08-03-2010 07:29 PM

Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?
 
I was told the reason why we turn our heads away is because with Nikyo pins and Sankyo pins - it has something to do with the artery or something in your neck that when you turn your head to face the person pinning you will go unconscious. I remember Michael Williams Sensei told us something like that a month or so ago.

In short - don't face nage/tori when they are pinning because you'll put yourself to sleep very quickly.

RED 08-03-2010 07:36 PM

Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?
 
I've never thought about this. There just seems to be a very instinctive point at which it is needed for each individual pin, and for each individual nage you work with.

So, I guess the best time and place to tun your head would be somewhere between the nage and mat. :p

Gorgeous George 08-03-2010 07:52 PM

Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?
 
Quote:

Mark Gibbons wrote: (Post 262424)
Front - fleshy painful parts, vulnerable eyes, delicate bones.
Back - mostly thick bone.

Not even a close call in my opinion.

Mark

Haha: try telling that to boxers/MMA-ers.

Gorgeous George 08-03-2010 07:55 PM

Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?
 
Quote:

Daniel Lloyd wrote: (Post 262426)
I was told the reason why we turn our heads away is because with Nikyo pins and Sankyo pins - it has something to do with the artery or something in your neck that when you turn your head to face the person pinning you will go unconscious. I remember Michael Williams Sensei told us something like that a month or so ago.

In short - don't face nage/tori when they are pinning because you'll put yourself to sleep very quickly.

I wasn't talking about facing tori when the pin is applied: I was talking about facing tori until it is clear the pin will be applied, and you can do nothing about it/have no chance at an opening/escape, I guess.

Rob Watson 08-03-2010 08:02 PM

Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?
 
Quote:

Mark Gibbons wrote: (Post 262424)
Front - fleshy painful parts, vulnerable eyes, delicate bones.
Back - mostly thick bone.

Not even a close call in my opinion.

Mark

It's the base of the skull that is the vulnerable part.

Mark Gibbons 08-03-2010 08:08 PM

Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?
 
Quote:

Robert M Watson Jr wrote: (Post 262430)
It's the base of the skull that is the vulnerable part.

Compared to the throat in front? Both are pretty vulnerable, throat is softer.

Rob Watson 08-03-2010 08:34 PM

Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?
 
Quote:

Mark Gibbons wrote: (Post 262432)
Compared to the throat in front? Both are pretty vulnerable, throat is softer.

Compared to the quote (which you now have taken out of context) the 'mostly bone' characterization of the back of the skull is contrasted to the base of the skull.

Either way it really does not matter. At the late stage of the pin it is kind of too late to worry where to turn your head as you are done either way.

Michael Hackett 08-03-2010 09:08 PM

Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?
 
We teach to turn the head away on the ikkyo, nikkyo and sankyo pins, primarily because of the nikkyo and sankyo pins. On those two pins, Nage usually places his knees against the ribcage and very close to the head. Turning the face away saves teeth and noses in training. We turn the head for ikkyo just for consistency.

Janet Rosen 08-03-2010 09:15 PM

Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?
 
Quote:

Graham Jenkins wrote: (Post 262429)
I wasn't talking about facing tori when the pin is applied: I was talking about facing tori until it is clear the pin will be applied, and you can do nothing about it/have no chance at an opening/escape, I guess.

Graham, I took your question to mean at what point one literally turns one's head away, which I do, say on ikkyo, pretty much when I'm about to hit the mat UNLESS there is enough slack in my (un)controlled arm that it is really easy for me to stay turned towards nage - in which case I don't actively resist at that point, but let my continued slight rotation to nage send a somatic message that something is amiss and he'd better self-correct his extension or he's blown it.

If you mean at what point do I let my center turn away from nage/tori, well, unless I'm working with a real newbie and guiding them through it via my ukemi, I don't let it turn - I may let it BE turned as part of cooperative practice depending on partner's level of training, or I may simply not turn until turned.

Janet Rosen 08-03-2010 09:17 PM

Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?
 
Quote:

Michael Hackett wrote: (Post 262436)
We teach to turn the head away on the ikkyo, nikkyo and sankyo pins, primarily because of the nikkyo and sankyo pins. On those two pins, Nage usually places his knees against the ribcage and very close to the head. Turning the face away saves teeth and noses in training. We turn the head for ikkyo just for consistency.

Agreed. Also, as in kotegaishe, in case disarming from a tanto or other weapon is sloppy and it accidentally falls, better it falls an arm's length to the side of one's head rather than on one's face.

Adam Huss 08-03-2010 10:03 PM

Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?
 
I turn my head toward a pin when its the first time I've seen it or not sure what it is just to get a look at whats going on. This saves time from sensei having to demonstrate it again on someone else b/c I was too busy being uke to pay attention. Depending on the pin, its varies in difficulty to see what's going on, but generally I can get the gist of it...just a bit of stretch in the neck. If nage is standing and I'm on the ground its pretty hard to see whats going on up there. Anyway, I don't think I've heard many reasonings beyond the simple "its more comfortable for uke to look away from pin" so its interesting to hear others ideas here.

Michael Hackett 08-03-2010 10:30 PM

Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?
 
Janet, good point on kotogaeshi - we protect the face with the free hand and arm from the landing and through the roll-over. Regardless of standing or kneeling pin on kotogaeshi, we turn our heads away from Nage, just to protect the face as mentioned before.

Jeff Scheurer 08-03-2010 10:32 PM

Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?
 
I was taught how it is possible in ikkyo, nikkyo, and sankyo pins to use uke's shoulder to constrict their carotid artery and cause a lack of blood flow to the brain. However, if uke turns their head in the other direction, the pressure will contribute to the immobilazation without affecting blood flow.
So I would say that once nage starts to put downward pressure it's best to look away so the artery isn't negatively affected. As far as weak spots, I could definitely find them on the front or the back of the head, but in my opinion I'd give the face as a target before I'd give the back of the head.
Break my nose and I'll be even uglier and a bit miffed. Hit me effectively on the occipital process and I might be eating apple sauce through a straw.
FWIW,
Jeff

aikishihan 08-03-2010 11:20 PM

Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?
 
Reality check.

When someone has you in a correct pinning move, in this case Ikkyo ude osae, you are at that person's mercy. You have no real options at that point, other than to concede, tap out and move on to the next training objective.

The point that I believe is being ignored here is the role and importance of mutual courtesy, compassion and respect for the training objective itself. The training protocol, in Aikido especially, requires prudent and proven reigi or etiquette, providing realistic training for both nage and uke, in their respective roles that constantly reverse themselves for mutual benefit and balance.

In Aikido especially, the nage is given huge leeway in finishing the technique, which would be totally unrealistic and unacceptable for the uke to yield to in an actual confrontation, and life or death situation. Thus the agreement that uke allows the nage to perform the waza thoroughly without real resistance, and that the nage accepts the responsibility of keeping the uke safe from any real threat of harm, is the basis for Aikido's kata form of training.

The act of turning the face away at that point in the waza is simply uke's tacit acceptance of nage's superior position, which must then be acknowledged by nage's compassionate response and zanshin. There is no need to define winners or losers in this scenario. Properly executed, this form of training results in both being winners.

In oneness,

Amir Krause 08-04-2010 02:30 AM

Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?
 
Never :D

And I have never fainted from any effect on the blood flow :freaky:

To the best of my understanding, for us, not turning the head is in some way, representative part of zanshin - being always aware of the surrounding and looking for openings. This is more mind then practice in most cases.

Amir

Demetrio Cereijo 08-04-2010 02:57 AM

Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?
 
If you turn your head away you can do a rolling escape from those "pins".

RED 08-04-2010 08:25 AM

Re: When Should You Turn Your Face Away When Being Pinned....?
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 262456)
If you turn your head away you can do a rolling escape from those "pins".

I'd watch out with that. You will get away with it with a loose or poorly executed pin. However, a well executed pin you are liable to injury your shoulder trying to roll out of it.

I'd just like to say that rolling out of pins is my pet peeve. Mostly because that when I feel a person is gonna go for it, I just let go of them and allow them to roll. I'm not willing to risk injuring some one just to prove that my pin is awesome. lol


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