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particleman151 05-01-2002 10:29 AM

Regarding Bujutsu
 
Well if you guys remember that i posted a question about bujutsu and ninji a bit ago, i know now what they are. I had a fairly long talk with my sensie and he said that bujutsu is his break off of the kokikai style. I guess he had his doubts about some of the moves in kokikai and that even the head teachers in this style could not throw him with some of the moves, even when he was not really resisting. Well when he first started teaching he had some big guys that also had there doubts of some of the kokikai "fluffy" moves and that they would not be street effective. So they went through alot of the moves and asked each other, "Did this work?, would i really throw you?, Would this be effiective in a real fight?"

So after filtering out alot of the moves he created Aikido Bujustu, "The way of the warrior" This style is mainly more self defense orientated and less spirutal but it is very effective.

The Ninji i was talking about was a bit of confusion on my part, Ninjie or what ever, is really www.ninjai.com, a site were we are registered on the dojo search.

Just thought you would be interested in what the style Bu jutsu is.

There are many paths up the moutain but they all lead to the the top.

Kami 05-01-2002 12:19 PM

Re: Regarding Bujutsu
 
[quote]Originally posted by particleman151
[b] I had a fairly long talk with my sensie and he said that bujutsu is his break off of the kokikai style. I guess he had his doubts about some of the moves in kokikai and...
So after filtering out alot of the moves he created Aikido Bujustu, "The way of the warrior" This style is mainly more self defense orientated and less spirutal but it is very effective.

KAMI : Sorry but to me it all seems very muddy...Your teacher seems to be concerned just with "efficiency" and makes a fantastic mix of JUTSU (Techniques for fighting) and DO
(ways for self-improvement). You do not put together AIKIDO (a Way for Self-Improvement) with BUJUTSU (Techniques for fighting). Either you choose one or the other. I know this is quite a far-fetched definition but I hope it carries my point. It's as if you said "I practice JujitsuDo". It just does not make sense.
And as my friend, Diane Skoss, says : neither Jutsu, nor Do, teaches you efficiency or "real" fighting. You'll find that just in the Police or in the armed forces, specially in war conditions. The rest of us do "arts", not "efficient" combat forms, whatever that is supposed to mean.

[quote]Originally posted by particleman151
[b]The Ninji i was talking about was a bit of confusion on my part, Ninjie or what ever, is really www.ninjai.com, a site were we are registered on the dojo search.

KAMI : Ah, and the page www.ninjai.com was sent with an error. When you go there, you'll find a page about Ninjutsu (???). So, besides AIKIDO BUJUTSU (???), you people also dabble in Ninjutsu? Cool...

[quote]Originally posted by particleman151
Just thought you would be interested in what the style Bu jutsu is.
There are many paths up the moutain but they all lead to the the top.
[/QUOTE

KAMI : A Do or a Jutsu is NOT a style, it has styles and I'm afraid if the one who's leading the way up the mountain is blind, it might not lead to the top but more probably lead everybody astray.
Take care

particleman151 05-01-2002 03:19 PM

Thanks for the very negative feedback Kami. It appears that if you dont understand something you just put it down.

Also any martail art can be a effective defense. If you think that Aikido is all about Harmony and peace you are greatly mistaken, Aikido is at its heart a self defense.

When O Sensie first invented Aikido it had some pretty nasty stuff in it. Aikido is from Aikki Jutsu and Daito ryu which are both deadly martial arts.

Aikido Bujutsu is a Japanse martial art based on the techniques from Jjitsu, Kendo, Judo and Jo-staff. I think that as Aikido evolved into a more soft martial art over time and Aikido just brings it back to when it was in its infancy. Yes it may not be all Aikido but it is based off alot of its moves.

Thanks
:ki:

Kami 05-01-2002 03:41 PM

MISUNDERSTANDING...
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally posted by particleman151
Thanks for the very negative feedback Kami. It appears that if you dont understand something you just put it down.
If you think that Aikido is all about Harmony and peace you are greatly mistaken, Aikido is at its heart a self defense. Aikido is from Aikki Jutsu and Daito ryu which are both deadly martial arts.
Thanks
:ki:

KAMI : You are free to think as you wish.
Best

particleman151 05-01-2002 04:10 PM

Sorry to be so defensive but what is so wrong with a new style of Aikido? One takes in what he learns from his teacher, changes it a bit, names it Aikido Bujutsu and adds a bit from another M.A. and every one thinks its some fake Martail art.

There are many diffrent defintions for Budo. Ive been to three sites and all three have had diffrent definitons for Bu and jutsu.

Anyone else with any thing?:ki:

Chris Li 05-01-2002 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by particleman151
Sorry to be so defensive but what is so wrong with a new style of Aikido? One takes in what he learns from his teacher, changes it a bit, names it Aikido Bujutsu and adds a bit from another M.A. and every one thinks its some fake Martail art.

There are many diffrent defintions for Budo. Ive been to three sites and all three have had diffrent definitons for Bu and jutsu.

Anyone else with any thing?:ki:

Nothing to do with the art itself, but linguistically "Aikido Bujutsu" is, at the very least, a little bit odd. Prepare for some strange looks if you talk about the art in Japan :) .

Nothing wrong with making your own art, but there are a lot of people doing that kind of thing in the US (and other places, of course) who are, shall we say, less then optimally competent - that's why people tend to be cautious about these things.

Best,

Chris

guest1234 05-01-2002 05:56 PM

Hi Brandon,

I understand how you could hear harsh criticism of your sensei in Kami's words, but that's because you're new to the forum...I don't know what Kami does, but I think of him as an Aiki historian, you will find his posts often to be extremely factual, and often related to minute details of history and linege that put lazy fools like me to sleep:dead: (that is sleeping, not ignoring :) ). I'd bet he was just trying to help you avoid, as Chris also pointed out, that to many the term "Aikido <anything> jutsu" would be considered a 'non-word'...probably will get less flak if you tell folks you study Aikido under an independant sensei, and if pressed for the style, mention it's kokikai roots. Unless you are looking for a fight, I might also suggest not telling the fellow Aikidoka it differs from his Aikido in that it is effective, as his is not.

I think sometimes we forget that all students, but very often beginners, can take criticism of their style/sensei as much to heart as questioning one's mother's behavior.:grr: And I'm sure everyone just had your best interests in mind.

warriorwoman 05-01-2002 06:47 PM

regarding bujutsu
 
Here we go, again! I'm mildly curious to know where your sensei learned his "ninjutsu", or did he make that up too? Although I didn't try to visit the website you posted, I vaguely remember a website that featured a cute little "ninja" cartoon with the name Ninjai. Is this related?
janet dtantirojanarat
www.warriorwoman.org

JohnH 05-01-2002 09:18 PM

Howdy Brandon,

I don't think that there is anything wrong with mixing martial arts. I myself studied a mixed art that included Aikido, sort of. (we also practiced in a YMCA) My instructor was very talented and his art was very effective. But as Chris Li pointed out, there are a lot of under qualified people who create their own arts, mis-use names and generally make everyone else look bad. I would advise that you be prepared to meet suspicion/skepticism when discussing your chosen art.

I will have to agree that your instructor's choice in names seems a bit odd. Although I could be mistaken seeing as my knowledge of Japanese is limited to a few trivial words and phrases.

That said, as long as you are satisfied with what you are being taught don't worry too much about the name. If you begin to doubt your instructor's credibility, then maybe you should check it out.

particleman151 05-01-2002 09:52 PM

Thanks very much for all the replys, all thoguh i like to pretend i know alot i really dont and this should help me ask sensie some questions.

Im really dont get why he calls it bujutsu because all M.A. after WW II became do(example, ken jutsu to kendo). Their is a older student in my class that studied from a diffrent Aikido class in Calaforina, he helps me out alot and uses a very fluided aikido, useing skill rather than strength. He seems to know alot about Aikido and i dont think that he would go to some boggus Aikido class.

Could you guys give me any advice on how to go about asking him why he choose bujutsu as a name with out affending him.

And no there is not ninjustsu in are aikido, even thought that would be really cool, the site had a camma in it so it did not work. her it is again www.ninjai.com
And yes warrior women this is the site with the little ninja kid ;)

Thanks again

:ki:

Chris Li 05-01-2002 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by particleman151
Im really dont get why he calls it bujutsu because all M.A. after WW II became do(example, ken jutsu to kendo).
Well, that happened mostly before the war, for various reasons, and while a lot of arts added "do" to the names a lot didn't (and still don't).

Best,

Chris

particleman151 05-01-2002 10:13 PM

;) Like i said i think i know alot about Aikido but i really dont. lol

Thanks for the correction:ki:

deepsoup 05-02-2002 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by particleman151
Could you guys give me any advice on how to go about asking him why he choose bujutsu as a name with out affending him.

My 2 euros worth of advice:

Dont bother.
If you enjoy the training (and it sounds like you do) dont worry about it, just train.

Sean
x

Kami 05-02-2002 11:38 AM

AIKI GRANDPA...
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ca
I understand how you could hear harsh criticism of your sensei in Kami's words, but that's because you're new to the forum...I don't know what Kami does, but I think of him as an Aiki historian, you will find his posts often to be extremely factual, and often related to minute details of history and linege that put lazy fools like me to sleep:dead: (that is sleeping, not ignoring :) ).
KAMI : Hell, Coleen, you made me feel like an old crusty curmudgeon...:( I have to improve my writing if I don't want people to see me as excessively factual and just concerned with minute details of things like lineage and history. (Heavens, I feel like an ancient and senile University History Professor. You did that to me, Colleen! :p )
As for the rest, you're absolutely right. The most important thing is for us to help one another.
And by the way, before I became an invalid, I practiced Taekwondo (Moo Duk Kwan) and Hapkido (Kuk Sool Woon), with some study of Judo and Karate (Wado Ryu). My son is an Aikido Sensei and I help him in his dojo. I was also a director of a local Aikido association for quite some time. I have friends and I participate in the activities of many groups here (Karate, Capoeira, Kung Fu, etc...). I believe most of that information is in my profile. Presently, I'm researching Budo's History and Traditions. Far from a Stanley Pranin, I'm afraid but it's already killing me...:dead:
Best

Brian Vickery 05-02-2002 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by particleman151
Im really dont get why he calls it bujutsu because all M.A. after WW II became do(example, ken jutsu to kendo).
Hello P'man,

(In the Adrenal Stress Training thread you asked me to respond to this thread regarding the naming of the aikido group I study with.)

Well, I can't speak for Obata Kaiso and why he choose to name his aikido organization 'Aikibujutsu Tanren Kenkyukai', I snipped some text from the www.aiki-buken.com website that sort of explains this:

****************************************************
ABOUT THE AIKIBUJUTSU TANREN KENKYUKAI:

Renowned Martial Artist Obata Toshishiro Sensei, a seven year uchi-deshi (live in student) under the late Shioda Gozo Sensei, relocated from Japan to America in 1980 to develop the foundation for a research organization, called the "Aikibujutsu Tanren Kenkyukai" (or "Aiki Buken" for short)*. The purpose of this organization is to accurately rebuild concepts and techniques from the older styles of Aiki no jutsu used during the Samurai times, as well as to study and continue to develop the "softer" styles of modern Aikido.

Aikibujutsu refers to older styles of Budo, or Martial Arts, of the Samurai. Tanren is the process during the forging of a sword in which the blade is hammered and folded , reducing the carbon content and eliminating impurities to create a strong foundation for the remaining steps of forging. Kenkyukai defines as a research organization, or society.
********************************************************
Aiki Buken also incorporates bo, tantojutsu, sword work based on Shinkendo & Toyama Ryu, low kicks, Shorin Ryu blocks, so it really would be misleading to call it "Aikido".

I don't know if this helps or it's what you're looking for!

Regards,

Bronson 05-03-2002 12:04 AM

I would think that most of the confusion could be avoided if your sensei dropped "do" from the name. Also he may want to give his new style a name as bujutsu seems to me to be more of a style classifaction. Maybe he could call it "your-sensei's-name ryu, aikibujutsu.

Maybe those with a more than dojo japanese could give you better examples.

Bronson

PeterR 05-03-2002 01:42 AM

The soup is deep once again.

I still have a ton of questions for my sensei and am sure that for every answer there will be another three. I've figured out that I don't need an answer to everthing right away and if I wait a bit one of two things happen.

1.) the question is answered either by sensei or someone else.

2.) the question is no longer important.

I personally am a bit suspicious of your sensei (for the reasons Chris stated) but its a funny thing - if you keep at it one day your true teacher (if he hasn't already) will present himself. With a bit of experience under your belt you will know it.

Quote:

Originally posted by deepsoup


My 2 euros worth of advice:

Dont bother.
If you enjoy the training (and it sounds like you do) dont worry about it, just train.

Sean
x


particleman151 05-03-2002 11:36 AM

Thanks for all the good replies.

I talked to sensie again last night and asked him if he ment aikibujutsu or aikido bujutsu. He said Aikido bujutsu. While this name does not make sense i think it goes allong the lines of Brain's school.

I think ill take deep soups advice and stick with it because i love the classes. The name may not make sense in japansese but i fell it is Aikido.

Thanks

:ki:

Kami 05-03-2002 12:57 PM

BRAINS'S SCHOOL...
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally posted by particleman151
While this name does not make sense i think it goes allong the lines of Brain's school.
:ki:

YAMANTAKA : Brain's School? Humm...

particleman151 05-03-2002 02:19 PM

Yes Brian... as in Brian Vickery, the guy who posted two above me!:ki:

Brian Vickery 05-03-2002 02:30 PM

Re: BRAINS'S SCHOOL...
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Kami


YAMANTAKA : Brain's School? Humm...

I've watched a few episodes of "Pinky & the Brain" with my kids ...*LOL*...an evil mouse with desires to rule the earth just make the hair stand up on the back of my neck! ;^)

...BUT now he's teaching AIKIDO!!!! ...YIKES!!!!

particleman151 05-03-2002 10:24 PM

ok...

I found a good site regardign bujutsu. http://www.ki-aikido.com/bujutsu.htm

I think this explains why sensies teaching are based on a concerned with pragmatic effectiveness and self defense.

Thanks
:ki:

PeterR 05-03-2002 11:03 PM

OK I can see where this is coming from but with all due respect to Draeger - the distinction between Do and Jujutsu does not really exist. He was trying to introduce certain concepts to a Western audience, succeeding and failing at the same time. Still if it works - go for it.

Even though the web site is short - there is quite a bit I would disagree with mostly with its description of Shodokan (Tomiki) styles - great emphasis on sport indeed. I guess the problem is always the case when one tries to over-rationalize Japanese Budo especially in limited space and with limited experience beyond your own area.

I do understand the desire to separate from the more philosophical bent associtated with Aikido. Styles founded by pre-war students of Aikido generally are far less concerned with this side than Aikikai for example (are more pragmatic) - yet they still refer to themselves as Do.

Thanks for the clarification Brain or should I say Brain (love typos like that - great come back Kami).




Quote:

Originally posted by particleman151
ok...

I found a good site regardign bujutsu. http://www.ki-aikido.com/bujutsu.htm

I think this explains why sensies teaching are based on a concerned with pragmatic effectiveness and self defense.

Thanks
:ki:


Chris Li 05-04-2002 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PeterR
I do understand the desire to separate from the more philosophical bent associtated with Aikido. Styles founded by pre-war students of Aikido generally are far less concerned with this side than Aikikai for example (are more pragmatic) - yet they still refer to themselves as Do.
Hmm, Aikikai was founded and led by a pre-war student of Aikido...

Hikitsuchi, Sunadomari, and Shirata - all extremely philosophical (much more so, IMO, than the average Aikikai person) all trained before the war.

For an even more philosophical style than Aikikai, check out Noriaki Inoue, one of the earliest (and possibly the longest) pre-war students of M. Ueshiba.

Best,

Chris

PeterR 05-04-2002 12:48 AM

Hi Chris - caught me in a trap of my own making. I thought "generally" would get me out of it.

Like I said I guess the problem is always the case when one tries to over-rationalize Japanese Budo especially in limited space and with limited experience beyond your own area.

By the way how is your Golden Week going - no way am I travelling. Doing some hiking in the hills around here but that's about it.

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Li


Hmm, Aikikai was founded and led by a pre-war student of Aikido...

Hikitsuchi, Sunadomari, and Shirata - all extremely philosophical (much more so, IMO, than the average Aikikai person) all trained before the war.

For an even more philosophical style than Aikikai, check out Noriaki Inoue, one of the earliest (and possibly the longest) pre-war students of M. Ueshiba.

Best,

Chris



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