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Brian Vickery 04-30-2002 11:15 AM

Adrenal Stress Training
 
I just got back from a very intense weekend of training at the RMCAT facility in Lake George, Colorado.

Has anyone else done any adrenal stress training, and if so, how did it affect your aikido training after that?

It's just so soon after for me to absorb it all, and to see how it will effect my training. But one thing for sure is it will have a definite impact.

I'm really curious to hear how others have put this experience and knowledge into their aikido training!

If you don't know what I'm talking about, you can go to this website to see what it is: http://www.rmcat.com/

Regards,

JW 05-01-2002 12:44 AM

I've never been to that class but from the webpage
it sounds like exactly what I have been concerned
about for a while: MA skill/experience does not =
self defense skill. It is probably really important
to be able to deal with fear and adrenalin rush.
Obviously this post contains no answer to the
question, but I have a question of my own:
Not being able to afford the $1000 for the class,
and not being willing to go pick fights to get
comfortable with adrenalin rushes, is the $30
book by this guy (on the webpage in the above
post) a good idea? I am wondering how much good
the book would do me. Thanks..
--JW

Ghost Fox 05-01-2002 06:14 AM

Brian how is your aikido different now that you have taken the class?

Brian Vickery 05-01-2002 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JW

Not being able to afford the $1000 for the class, and not being willing to go pick fights to get comfortable with adrenalin rushes, is the $30 book by this guy (on the webpage in the above post) a good idea? I am wondering how much good the book would do me.

Hello JW!

...I read both of Peyton Quinn's book before I took the course ("Real Fighting" & "A Bouncers Guide to Barroom Brawling", You can get *BOTH* these books from Amazon for about $30), they're really an eye opener! I've incorporated info from both books into the aikido classes I teach, which is easy to do, since Mr. Quinn utilizes many aikido moves in his defenses. (He also speaks very highly of aikido throughout the books!) ...After reading "Real Fighting: Adrenalijne Stress Conditioning Through Senario Based Training" I was convinced I needed to give his course a try! ...which took quite a bit of convincing with a $1,000 price tag! The book is very infomative on the adrenal dump and it's effects on the body and your ability (...or lack there of) to defend yourself under it's effects. So, from an educational stand point, the book is great!

Regards,

Brian Vickery 05-01-2002 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ghost Fox
Brian how is your aikido different now that you have taken the class?
Hi Ghost Fox!

...You know, it's just so soon after to tell for sure, but I don't really see my aikido being *any* different after taking that course ...BUT one thing for sure is, I'm *different* inside now! It's hard to explain, but that course has a life changing effect! I came away knowing that if I'm ever attack, I won't just freeze up and take a beating! That course has been so fine tuned & perfected that they know just how to 'reprogram' your subconscious, primal, instinctual mind to just take over and use all that adrenaline to fight off an attacker!

...It's a TOTAL RUSH!!!

Regards,

Erik 05-01-2002 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian Vickery
...You know, it's just so soon after to tell for sure, but I don't really see my aikido being *any* different after taking that course ...BUT one thing for sure is, I'm *different* inside now! It's hard to explain, but that course has a life changing effect! I came away knowing that if I'm ever attack, I won't just freeze up and take a beating! That course has been so fine tuned & perfected that they know just how to 'reprogram' your subconscious, primal, instinctual mind to just take over and use all that adrenaline to fight off an attacker!
Brian, I'm curious about that knowing part. My first instructor was a military guy. He was a good Aikidoist and a relatively unknown and hidden gem within the Aikido community. In regards to his technical skill, he wasn't extraordinary although he had some unique spins on stuff. In fact, one on one, I figured I might have had a chance on a fighting level. Probably even have a pretty good one now as I'm 30 years younger than he is and have some time in the game as well. However, what differentiated him from anyone else I've met on the mat was the absolute certainty that if I engaged him I had to finish him. In other words, if it happened for real, it happened all the way with him and I'd better finish it forever.

Now, interestingly, his knowing in that regards allowed him to actually practice stuff that other's would be uncomfortable with. For instance, during a multi-art seminar he got up during his part and said Aikido is love and did some non-technique opening stuff. Everyone else thought he was crazy and I have to admit that I shared the sentiment. I'm convinced that certainty, at least for him, allowed him to be this way. The knowing allowed him to play in realms that less confident folks fear to tread.

Am I totally off-base here, or is it possibly a similar thing?

Don_Modesto 05-01-2002 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JW
I have a question of my own:is the $30
book by this guy (on the webpage in the above
post) a good idea? I am wondering how much good the book would do me. Thanks..--JW

The books are very good (albeit, seriously in need of a better editor than Mr. Quinn, himself). Mr. Quinn tries to appeal to a rougher demographic than typically found in aikido, but what he has to say is excellent. He is critical, but balanced, on the martial arts, several of which he has practiced, incl. aikido with the late Toyoda.

Daunted at the cost, I got my copies through Interlibrary Loan and was quite satisfied in taking notes rather than highlighting and making marginal notes.

Krzysiek 05-01-2002 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Erik

:::SNIP:::

However, what differentiated him from anyone else I've met on the mat was the absolute certainty that if I engaged him I had to finish him. In other words, if it happened for real, it happened all the way with him and I'd better finish it forever.

Now, interestingly, his knowing in that regards allowed him to actually practice stuff that other's would be uncomfortable with. For instance, during a multi-art seminar he got up during his part and said Aikido is love and did some non-technique opening stuff. Everyone else thought he was crazy and I have to admit that I shared the sentiment. I'm convinced that certainty, at least for him, allowed him to be this way. The knowing allowed him to play in realms that less confident folks fear to tread.

Am I totally off-base here, or is it possibly a similar thing?

Eric, that makes amazing volumes of sense to me, I think that's an important point to understand: we learn technique as vigorously as our bodies allow but when the moment happends you GO and things turn out whichever way they turn out.

BTW: by "GO" I mean not necessarily fists flying, it could mean call the police and run away.

Brian Vickery 05-01-2002 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Erik


Brian, I'm curious about that knowing part. However, what differentiated him from anyone else I've met on the mat was the absolute certainty that if I engaged him I had to finish him. In other words, if it happened for real, it happened all the way with him and I'd better finish it forever.

The knowing allowed him to play in realms that less confident folks fear to tread.

Am I totally off-base here, or is it possibly a similar thing?

Hello Erik,

No, you're not off base at all, you hit the nail on the head here! RMCAT taught me that I can flip that switch, which before then, I didn't even know I had! The senarios they put you thru over-ride your previous 'programming' and show you how to go from zero to 100% in an instant. It's an incredible course!

So what I learned won't take the place of my aikido training, just augment it! They're not teaching a martial art there, they're teaching you how to operate on a very primative level, not allowing you conscious mind to go into denial in an attack situation and freeze up you whole body. Essentially you're on auto-pilot once that switch is flipped! ...it's definitely GO TIME!

Regards,

akiy 05-01-2002 03:33 PM

Hi Brian,

Can you describe some of the exercises and such that they put you through over the weekend?

What were the other folks who took the course like? Were they martial artists, officers, military people?

-- Jun

Brian Vickery 05-01-2002 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by akiy
Hi Brian,

What were the other folks who took the course like? Were they martial artists, officers, military people?

-- Jun

Hi Jun,

I'll answer this one first, I'll describe the exercises in another posting.

OK, there were 7 students, 6 males & 1 female. Ages varied, mid-20's to mid-40's. Two I'd consider serious martial artists (one studied Tae Kwon Do, the other Aikido [me] ;^). The female did not study any martial art at all, along with two of the males. The other two males dabble in a variety of things, but the way they explained it, it sounded like a tae bo kinda thing.

No military or police in the class ...just a bunch of civilians!

The class usually consists of 16 students ...since it was so small, we got to do extra senarios ...so how cool is that!

Brian Vickery 05-01-2002 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by akiy

Can you describe some of the exercises and such that they put you through over the weekend?

I won't go into any real detail here ...I'd be writing volumes, plus if any of you end up going, I'll be spoiling all the suprises they have for you there!

The course is roughly divided into two catagories:
1) Verbal (about 1/3 of the course)
2) Combat (about 2/3 of the course)

Verbal consists of a guy 'woofing' on you, in which you have to de-escalate the confrontation, being assertive, but not aggressive, and definitely NOT showing any fear! (You can FEEL fear, you just can't SHOW it!)

Combat consisted of various attack senarios: Front, rear, tackled from the front & rear, on the ground face up, on the ground face down, and combinations of all of the above!

You know, I actually found the verbal to be the hardest!

Erik 05-01-2002 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian Vickery
Combat consisted of various attack senarios: Front, rear, tackled from the front & rear, on the ground face up, on the ground face down, and combinations of all of the above!
I'm wondering if I could convince you to talk a bit more about this without revealing any spoilers. I've started to muck around with the more conventional process of attack/throw. In other words, not allowing people to throw on the first attack, attacking from angles/behind and forcing people and myself to move and respond from awkward positions caused by our reaction (probably jumpy) to that first strike.

I'm very interested right now in different and better ways to approach this.

jk 05-01-2002 09:21 PM

Let me just add my voice to the chorus of those saying, "Brian, Brian, tell us more!" Must be quite a rush being able to go full-on at someone's head and groin. :)

At any rate, I haven't read any of Mr. Quinn's books; how does the material he presents compare to Marc "Animal" MacYoung's? Go on, give me another reason to keep Amazon.com afloat...

Regards,

George S. Ledyard 05-01-2002 11:28 PM

Peyton Quinn
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Don_Modesto


The books are very good (albeit, seriously in need of a better editor than Mr. Quinn, himself). Mr. Quinn tries to appeal to a rougher demographic than typically found in aikido, but what he has to say is excellent. He is critical, but balanced, on the martial arts, several of which he has practiced, incl. aikido with the late Toyoda.

Daunted at the cost, I got my copies through Interlibrary Loan and was quite satisfied in taking notes rather than highlighting and making marginal notes.

I have had a fairly lengthy communication via e-mail with Mr. Quinn. He is a real pioneer in the area of self defense training and his courses are worth every penny he charges. But I especially liked his no no-nonsense attitude. Unlike most of us he has actually used his Aikido techniques in real applied self defense situations. Unlike a lot of the so-called "real world" folks who pooh pooh Aikido, Peyton is very positive about it's effectiveness. My favorite quote from him was "it's amazing how well an irimi nage works when you bounce his head off the bar..."
Now that's a bit earthy for most Aikidoka but I really liked it.

Brian Vickery 05-02-2002 07:29 AM

Re: Peyton Quinn
 
Quote:

Originally posted by George S. Ledyard

Unlike a lot of the so-called "real world" folks who pooh pooh Aikido, Peyton is very positive about it's effectiveness.

Hello Ledyard Sensei,

I found Peyton to be one of the most interesting martial artisits that I've EVER talked to. He & I had many conversations, one of them going pretty late, in which everyone else had long since turned in. Then in the morning, while I was enjoying the morning sun & breeze on the porch, he came out and joined me (with a glass of OJ for me), and we continued the discussion. He truly respects aikido and loves dicussing some of the deeper aspects of the art and it's philosophy.

...I actually began to feel guilty due to all the extra attention he gave me throughout the weekend. I guess we just 'clicked'!

Regards,

Brian Vickery 05-02-2002 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Erik


I'm wondering if I could convince you to talk a bit more about this without revealing any spoilers.

Hi Erik,

...OK, how about I talk a bit on how I felt aikido gave me an advantage in these senarios that I didn't see in the other students, hopefully I won't give too much away for those who plan on attending some time soon.

In one exercise, you had to get by a knife weilding assailant who was between you and the exit (Portal of Safety Senario). I ended up being the ONLY student who didn't get cut. I had a foam bat in my hand, and when I felt the attacker had come too close (broken my 'boundry of safety') I would strike the knife hand. Here 'mai-ai' & 'tai sabaki' came into play. I was able to automatically maintain enough space so as not to get cut, moving & striking back simultaneously ...just like in any other aikido exercise! The other students didn't seem to have this ability ...the either froze up or tried to back pedal, which got them 'cut'.

In the frontal attack senarios, I found that 'irimi' was a key ability. Again, the assailant broke my boundry, I moved slightly offline and entered with a palm heal strike to his face, stopping his momentum, allowing me to land other strikes. The other students did one of three things: froze, back pedalled, or pre-emptively struck the attacker, with back pedalling being the reaction used by most.

In the grabs from behind, I was able to atemi or break his grab, just like in a standard aikido class. Everyone seemed to do well with this one ...by this time everyone had enough mat time to get used to being attacked, so the differences in ability began to disappear.

So, my aikido experience did give me an initial advantage that the others didn't seem to have!

Regards,

Brian Vickery 05-02-2002 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Erik

I've started to muck around with the more conventional process of attack/throw. In other words, not allowing people to throw on the first attack, attacking from angles/behind and forcing people and myself to move and respond from awkward positions caused by our reaction (probably jumpy) to that first strike.

Erik,

You know, I've been doing the exact same thing in my classes recently. Working on 'checking' the initial punch or kick, rather than instantly going into one of the standard aikido moves. If the attack is a 'sucker punch', about all you can do is check it, then utilize tai sabaki to recover mai-ai, THEN be ready to execute a technique on a subsequent attack.

It's had an interesting effect on the students (...*LOL*...or it could just be me wanting to see this), the students seem to be more relaxed while doing technique, some have even mentioned it to me. They've said that they don't get as nervous while practicing due to the fact that they don't EXPECT to execute a technique on the first strike! They feel they'll be able to check that strike, then do something after that.

Let me know if you see this also with your students!

Brian Vickery 05-02-2002 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jk

At any rate, I haven't read any of Mr. Quinn's books; how does the material he presents compare to Marc "Animal" MacYoung's? Go on, give me another reason to keep Amazon.com afloat...

Hi JK!

I've only read one of the "Animal's" books, "Taking it to the Streets", which was very good ...and VERY similiar to Mr. Quinn's books, except Mr. Quinn's techniques are a bit simpler due to his belief that gross muscle movements are all you're going to be able to do in a sudden attack situation. Their concepts and philosophy about self defense are essentially identical.

If you're interested in self defense technique, read "A Bouncers Guide to Barroom Brawling", which is chalk full of technique, but if you're more interested in the physiology & psychology of being attacked, then "Real Fighting" would be a good choice. But be careful with that one, it's hard to read that one and NOT end up dying to take the RMCAT course!

Regards,

particleman151 05-02-2002 11:14 AM

Brian
This sound awesome! I wish i could afford this class. I plan on picking up his book at the libarly later this week.

Also there is a article from Black Belt magazine on http://www.rmcat.com/ . It goes though the guy's day by day routine if you want more info.

Also Brian, i looked at your profile and saw that your dojo is called Aikibujutsu. I posted not to long ago with some questons about bujutsu. My sensie says we study Aikido Bujutsu but many people says that the name does not make sense. Well this is off topic so maybe ill email you or you can reply in the regarding bujutsu fourm in the general menu.

Thanks
:ki:

Brian Vickery 05-02-2002 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by particleman151
Brian
This sound awesome! I wish i could afford this class.

Hello Particleman151,

There is a lower price alternative to the RMCAT course, that is if you're lucky enough to live near a dojo that offers a "FAST DEFENSE" course with RMCAT trained 'Bulletmen" (attackers). Go to: www.fastdefense.com
-click on the "Training Locations" area and see if there's a place close to you!

Bill Kipp is the guy who trains ALL the bulletmen, and he's also the guy who runs the classes at RMCAT, under the watchful eye of Mr. Quinn.

Quote:

Originally posted by particleman151
Also Brian, i looked at your profile and saw that your dojo is called Aikibujutsu. I posted not to long ago with some questons about bujutsu. My sensie says we study Aikido Bujutsu but many people says that the name does not make sense. Well this is off topic so maybe ill email you or you can reply in the regarding bujutsu fourm in the general menu.

I'll respond to this in the thread you started on this topic!

Regards,

paw 05-02-2002 11:42 AM

hmm....
 
Brian,

The websites only have pictures with one person or one group wearing the bulletman suit. Does training progress to the point where both attacker(s) and defender wear the suit? If not, why not?

Curious,

Paul

Brian Vickery 05-02-2002 12:04 PM

Re: hmm....
 
Quote:

Originally posted by paw
Brian,
Does training progress to the point where both attacker(s) and defender wear the suit? If not, why not?

Curious,

Paul

Only the attackers wear the bulletman suit. This is not a sparring session, the whole purpose of this course is to teach you to go all out under the effects of adrenal stress. The bulletmen do hit back, I've got the bruises & lumps to show show for it. The defender wears only headgear, but it was my impression, that it was only to allow the bulletment to whomp you that much harder. There were a couple of bloody noses, which one student froze when he saw his own blood, the other went into a blind rage ...this RMCAT training really takes you to the EXTREME!

Another reason is that the helmet & groin protection of the suit is fitted to the individual bulletman and cannot be used by anyone else but him. These components are literally& physically molded around the guy.
Plus, each suit cost $1,200. (I asked ALOT of questions while I was there!)

Yet another reason is that these bulletmen are highly trained at taking this type of abuse. They say that they can still feel the shots being delivered and the only thing keeping them from being injured is their training. The suit alone is NOT enough. I guess it's a variation of aikido's ukemi, just applied differently.

Regards,

Erik 05-02-2002 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian Vickery
You know, I've been doing the exact same thing in my classes recently. Working on 'checking' the initial punch or kick, rather than instantly going into one of the standard aikido moves. If the attack is a 'sucker punch', about all you can do is check it, then utilize tai sabaki to recover mai-ai, THEN be ready to execute a technique on a subsequent attack.
Agreed! I've been out in the country a lot the last couple of months and it's not at all rare for me to surprise some animal. I wish I could say that I didn't jump, but dammit, I jump. It even happens wandering around a corner and I bump into a little old lady. Maybe not 3 feet into the air, and I do ground/respond fairly quickly, but enough that I began to think about always using the attack/technique approach as a teaching method.

Quote:

It's had an interesting effect on the students (...*LOL*...or it could just be me wanting to see this), the students seem to be more relaxed while doing technique, some have even mentioned it to me. They've said that they don't get as nervous while practicing due to the fact that they don't EXPECT to execute a technique on the first strike! They feel they'll be able to check that strike, then do something after that.

Let me know if you see this also with your students!
At the end of the last class I taught, I joined in for some standard Aikikai multiple attack. One of these guys is strong and he uses too much muscle. Because of the nature of the class it had gotten more intense than most and I figured we'd meet head on. It was the opposite. He was the most relaxed I've ever felt. In fact, he felt really good.

I've been puzzling over it all week.

Brian Vickery 05-02-2002 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Erik

At the end of the last class I taught, I joined in for some standard Aikikai multiple attack.

...this reminded me of something, Bill Kipp does seminars around the country with the bulletmen in which the senarios are all multiple assailant attacks. He's doing one in Pennsylvania in July and one here in Phoenix in November, even though they're not yet listed on the fastdefense.com site.
...RANDORI with BULLETMEN!!!! ...I'm THERE! You can do all the stuff you wouldn't dare do to uke in the dojo!!!


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