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-   -   yokomenuchi shionage....ura (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18292)

tim evans 06-30-2010 10:38 PM

yokomenuchi shionage....ura
 
When I irimi in and atemi uke should be forced back my problem is I can,t keep him going back.any help is appreciated:)

Abasan 06-30-2010 10:47 PM

Re: yokomenuchi shionage....ura
 
Relax your lead hand and don't charge him. As you contact, sink your center slightly but don't lose extension of both hands. Should do the trick.

ruthmc 07-01-2010 08:06 AM

Re: yokomenuchi shionage....ura
 
Quote:

Tim Evans wrote: (Post 260327)
When I irimi in and atemi uke should be forced back my problem is I can,t keep him going back.any help is appreciated:)

I'd be thinking more in terms of disrupt - redirect than force back..

Disrupt the initial attack by entering before it gets too strong, then redirect uke's original forward intention off the line of attack.

Force back sounds more like a clash of energies to me, thereby causing uke to resist. Uke will resist subconsciously if you try to force him - it's an automatic reaction which I teach our students to be aware of :)

Ruth

NagaBaba 07-01-2010 08:34 AM

Re: yokomenuchi shionage....ura
 
Quote:

Tim Evans wrote: (Post 260327)
When I irimi in and atemi uke should be forced back my problem is I can,t keep him going back.any help is appreciated:)

Ideally you meet an attack with the timing that put attacker hand, left and right shoulder on the same line or little behind the line of his shoulders. And then you are shifting you weight lightly forward. That happens in the first moment of the contact and should shape his backbone to the back. It means that the direction of unbalancing is to his third point behind his back. Continue to stretch his arm to this point while you are doing shihonage. You have to maintain not only the contact with his attacking arm, but stretch and lock this arm all the time during the turn of your hips. His arm must be stretched(you can put your elbow under his elbow) and in horizontal position while you pivoting. That maintains unbalancing.

Jonathan 07-01-2010 11:13 AM

Re: yokomenuchi shionage....ura
 
I'm curious: What is it that you think you're supposed to do (mechanically speaking) when performing the technique? What do you mean by "can't keep him going back," exactly? Do you mean keeping him arched backward?

sakumeikan 07-01-2010 02:05 PM

Re: yokomenuchi shionage....ura
 
Quote:

Tim Evans wrote: (Post 260327)
When I irimi in and atemi uke should be forced back my problem is I can,t keep him going back.any help is appreciated:)

Dear Tim ,
Would it not be betetr just to see if you can find any video of this waza rather than try and make sense of some of the istructions posted on this web page?Surely seeing the waza is better than reading info?
Cheers, Joe.

tim evans 07-01-2010 10:16 PM

Re: yokomenuchi shionage....ura
 
Quote:

Jonathan Hay wrote: (Post 260366)
I'm curious: What is it that you think you're supposed to do (mechanically speaking) when performing the technique? What do you mean by "can't keep him going back," exactly? Do you mean keeping him arched backward?

Yes john as I irrimi in forcing the striking hand behind his shoulder and turning along with stretching him out as I continue the shionage technique for a 5th kyu like myself doing this slow is hard :)

tim evans 07-01-2010 10:17 PM

Re: yokomenuchi shionage....ura
 
Quote:

Joe Curran wrote: (Post 260382)
Dear Tim ,
Would it not be betetr just to see if you can find any video of this waza rather than try and make sense of some of the istructions posted on this web page?Surely seeing the waza is better than reading info?
Cheers, Joe.

I will look into that joe thanks

Jonathan 07-02-2010 08:48 AM

Re: yokomenuchi shionage....ura
 
Here's how I do it, Tim. I even explain in the clip a little of what I'm doing. :D Hope this helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWOVLUERbHQ

tim evans 09-11-2010 12:32 AM

Re: yokomenuchi shionage....ura
 
The light went on for this technique today at class when I irrimi in offline slight angle I kokyu my lead hand witch in turn brings his arm into position for ura:D

RED 09-11-2010 07:44 PM

Re: yokomenuchi shionage....ura
 
Sounds like a 4th kyu exam..what does your sensei say you should do about this problem? He/she would be the one testing you anyways. ;)

jeremymcmillan 06-18-2011 06:33 AM

Re: yokomenuchi shionage....ura
 
I *just* figured this out, so bear with me. It's newly stolen from one of the senior dan ranked students at my dojo...

Approach the shihonage like you were going to do this kokyunage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsYZgYlzv6U

As I have learned, the secret to this throw is rotation of uke's arm to reverse the elbow joint, stiffening uke's arm, making it a cantilever against nage's throwing shoulder/upper arm. Once you get it, options begin to dawn.

In this kokunage throw, if nage's grasp rotates uke's palm forward and up, it takes up all of the slack in uke's arm. At the point when nage has loaded uke's shoulder as a fulcrum atop nage's upper arm, instead of projecting uke in the kokyunage throw, maintain uke's arm rotation and nage can reach around to grasp uke's hand with both hands while stepping the leading foot into position to execute the shihonage throw. With the two handed grasp, nage can just opt for shihonage instead.

At this point uke has very little flexibility in his arm, and if that stiffness (connection to center) is maintained, less than halfway through nage's pivot through shiho, uke's balance will be broken irresistably and effortlessly. When nage has completed the pivot... let's just say that's the magical feeling... uke suspended.

You can tell that Tamura sensei is doing it in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BXCGcXYy8o

Also it seems to be the extra secret sauce in this Chiba sensei demonstration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC_Uctj1CyE

RFC!

Mario Tobias 06-18-2011 03:56 PM

Re: yokomenuchi shionage....ura
 
Pointers for kuzushi for shihonage - irimi version

1. the common mistake for irimi entry is wrong TIMING. Most people only start to irimi too late. Irimi when uke's hand starts to go up, unlike the other version where you can "catch" the hand and you can wait all you want for the attack to come through. Here its different, you don't actually know who's attacking. Enter too late, then uke gets too strong, that's why you can't "force him back". But enter too early, and uke might attack differently or technique looks like a farce.

2. You do not "force him back". The kuzushi is designed for him not to be able to move/walk once you get the ATTACKING ARM IN THE RIGHT POSITION. You need to find the correct position, timing and what is enough force to put that attacking arm to immobilise him. You dont even need atemi to do this but it will help.
You need to find the correct force as too much force during entry will throw him like a kokyu throw. not enough force, you'll encounter your problem. enough force will immobilise him.

The test is that once that arm is in the right position, uke cannot walk forward with the backleg no matter how he tries. Experiment with this first with a partner, no need to do yokomen or shomen attack. just find the right position of uke's attacking hand for kuzushi (uke would feel like a tripod, attacking hand and 2 feet). Once you find the right position for that arm, ask uke to walk forward. If uke can move the backleg forward, then you havnt found the right hind position so you need to experiment more. Also ask uke to try to reach you with his other arm.. he can't as he will be off balanced. Its just understanding simple force vectors.

Once you find this, you can stand there as long as you like and uke can't walk or reach you with his other arm. This is the test. then apply this doing yokomen or shomen.

my 2 cents

Aikironin21 09-07-2011 12:32 PM

Re: yokomenuchi shionage....ura
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 260344)
Ideally you meet an attack with the timing that put attacker hand, left and right shoulder on the same line or little behind the line of his shoulders. And then you are shifting you weight lightly forward. That happens in the first moment of the contact and should shape his backbone to the back. It means that the direction of unbalancing is to his third point behind his back. Continue to stretch his arm to this point while you are doing shihonage. You have to maintain not only the contact with his attacking arm, but stretch and lock this arm all the time during the turn of your hips. His arm must be stretched(you can put your elbow under his elbow) and in horizontal position while you pivoting. That maintains unbalancing.

I think this is most correct for what I think you are experiencing. I had the same issues with this technique, an as a result, never really considered it a viable technique for what I do.

My problem was, I would do really well at affecting uke's balance on the initial entry and blend, then essentially give him his balance back as I turned to pivot for the throw. It wasn't just ura but omote as well. I made it my sole mission in training to resolve this and come up with the following.

After I blend with the attack, I when I grab uke's striking hand, I grab the wrist along the line of an American Indian Handshake. That is I grab his wrist or forearm area closest to the wrist with my palm on the inside of the forearm or wrist. As I step around to pivot, I extend
both of my arms, similar to doing boken technique so my grabing hand is on top of my non-grabbing hand. My non grabbing hand acts as a sort of platform for uke's arm and prevents him from being able to turn into me and out of the technique. My grabbing hand extends out in front of my forehead and stays there throughout. If you allow this to collapse, uke regains his balance.

The important point being, is the way you grab uke's wrist or forearm. By grabbing with your palm on the inside of the forearm. when you extend your arms uke's arm has a twist to it which causes him to maintain that arched back posture as you pivot. Your extended non-grabbing arm gives him some support so he doesn't just try to twist out of the technique. As you pivot around it is essential you don't allow your extended arms to collapse at all. Maintain a constant extension. You may have to even sink down a little more to clear uke's arm. By the time you finish your pivot, uke should no longer be able to stand on his own. The small amount of support you are giving him is what is keeping him standing. As you pivot end by turning to face him. At this point you have a grip on his forearm similar to a boken grip. Move your center forward and cut down along uke's back across his center and he has no choice but to fall.

I know some people like to apply a wrist lock in shionage as they take uke down, but I learned it initially to grab the forearm not at the wrist or hand. I also like coming all the way around to a 90 degree angle to uke rather than being along side uke facing the opposite direction. This is how I do it, for now, hope this may help.

Mary Eastland 09-07-2011 05:55 PM

Re: yokomenuchi shionage....ura
 
Have you asked your teacher?

Tim Ruijs 09-08-2011 02:10 PM

Re: yokomenuchi shionage....ura
 
Nobuyoshi Tamura shihonage:

(first part)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGYI5yy2VgM&feature=fvsr

Unlike other vids here, Nobuyoshi Tamura shows how to be the center of the technique. Much less movement required...


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