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Kat.C 04-22-2002 10:15 PM

Pinned?
 
We did a pin in class tonight and I'm not sure why one would ever use it. You could very easily kick the person who has you pinned, and that is precisely what I said to my partner when she had me pinned and asked me to try to get up. I was on my back with my shoulders firmly pinned to the floor. My partner laughed when I mentioned kicking and said "no,no you can't play that way for this exercise" and that I was just to try to lift my shoulders off the mat. You wouldn't ever use a pin like this would you? What was the point of it?
(I asked a higher rank if they do any kicking at all and they do use them for attacks and they do techniques to counter them, so kicking is part of the training.)
So is there a reason for a pin like this?:confused:

Jonathan 04-22-2002 10:27 PM

If the pin you're speaking of is the finish to the kokyu dosa movement then the pin is not about martial practicality but rather about extension of ki. Kokyu dosa is an exercise intended to help develop breath power and relaxed extension of ki.

MaylandL 04-22-2002 11:11 PM

I would agree with Johnathan. What is sometimes learned in the dojo is not about martial effectiveness from the perspective of self defence or a "street technique". ITs about applying and training the principles of the martial art. In this case I presume that it was about extension of ki and taking posture.

Edward 04-23-2002 02:04 AM

I agree with the above, except that Suwari Kokyu Ho (this is how we call it over here) like all Aikido techniques does have a martial application. It depends on your level of profiency. My sensei, 7th dan, never actually pins you with his hands which stay at about 20cm above uke. You can try to kick him or turn over as much as you can. The only way out of it is to get a more painful pin or lock, so you would rather opt to stay in the first position. Of course, I am not able to efficientlty pin uke using this technique but I still have a long way to go.

Tim Griffiths 04-23-2002 03:14 AM

Interestingly enough, there's been a change in the 'official' aikikai finish to kokyu dosa/suwari kokyu ho recently, judging by the three shihan who've come to Israel from Hombu in the last 2 years. All of them were finishing facing uke's flank, with one hand threatening face/controlling nearside hand, and the other controlling farside hand, hip and supressing a possible kick. It isn't a pin, but a control of uke's escape exits.

I don't know if there was a formal change, or someone at hombu started doing it this way and it caught on. Anyway, I think its an improvement.

Anyway, Kathryn, this position isn't really a finish - the technique is only halfway done. We stop here so we can practice the initial movement as a breathing/relaxation/centering exercise. The real technique happens as uke tries to get up again.

Tim

Greg Jennings 04-23-2002 07:33 AM

As others have indicated, kokyu dosa is treated as an exercise in our dojo.

It's a case study. It allows us to focus on subtle body mechanics w/o confusing footwork, hand exchanges, etc.

Before we "get it" it's dang near impossible to move a resistive uke. Once we do "get it", it's so easy that the danger is in getting lazy.

Our way of finishing kokyu dosa bridges uke's near-side elbow over our near-side thigh.

Since I, personally, enjoy exploring the interaction between judo and aikido, I will sometimes transition from our finishing position to ude gatame.

Kat.C 04-23-2002 07:41 AM

What's kokyu dosa?:confused:

Tim Griffiths 04-23-2002 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kat.C
What's kokyu dosa?:confused:
Also called suwari kokyu ho, its an exercise that leads to the pin that we've all assumed you're talking about.

It begins with both partners sitting seiza opposite each other, about a fist's width between each other's knees, with one partner holding both wrists of the other. Tori then takes uke's balance in one way or another, and leads that to one side, so that uke falls/half rolls onto their back (and the pin we think you mean.

Many dojos use this as the last (sometimes first) exercise of every class.

(Its usually called kokyu dosa in ki-style dojos, kokyu ho is the usual name in an aikikai dojo).

Tim

Kat.C 04-23-2002 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim Griffiths


Also called suwari kokyu ho, its an exercise that leads to the pin that we've all assumed you're talking about.

It begins with both partners sitting seiza opposite each other, about a fist's width between each other's knees, with one partner holding both wrists of the other. Tori then takes uke's balance in one way or another, and leads that to one side, so that uke falls/half rolls onto their back (and the pin we think you mean.

Many dojos use this as the last (sometimes first) exercise of every class.

(Its usually called kokyu dosa in ki-style dojos, kokyu ho is the usual name in an aikikai dojo).

Tim

Ah yes, that is exactly what we were doing. Thank you, now I know what it is called.:)
And we did do it as the last exercise in class too.

Don_Modesto 04-23-2002 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim Griffiths
Interestingly enough, there's been a change in the 'official' aikikai finish to kokyu dosa/suwari kokyu ho recently, judging by the three shihan who've come to Israel from Hombu in the last 2 years.
If you don't mind, who were they?

Thanks.

Lyle Bogin 04-23-2002 12:24 PM

I think one of the important lesson from this pin is to not over commit. If you put too much into holding down you uke, you can easily be rolled (grappled and dominated). However, just the right amount of extension will creat the pin and allow you to maintain you structure. As far as kicking goes, try it. If you see a problem, try to fix it or simply acknowledge a potential danger.

akiy 04-23-2002 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim Griffiths
It isn't a pin, but a control of uke's escape exits.
Interesting. What would be, in your thoughts, the differences between pinning your uke and controling your uke's escape exits?

-- Jun

Kat.C 04-23-2002 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lyle Bogin
I think one of the important lesson from this pin is to not over commit. If you put too much into holding down you uke, you can easily be rolled (grappled and dominated). However, just the right amount of extension will creat the pin and allow you to maintain you structure. As far as kicking goes, try it. If you see a problem, try to fix it or simply acknowledge a potential danger.
I would have kicked but was told not to, I was just supposed to try to use my upper body and get my shoulders oof the floor. This is why I wondered what the pin was for. My legs and hips were quite free so I could have done a number of things. My partner was turned so that she could see my lower body so she could have blocked a kick but of course one of my arms would then have been free to hit her with.
I am not critsising by the way, I was just confused about the purpose of that pin.
I can see how it is a good exercise for learning to mainain balance and not extend oneself too much(which I did). As for the ki extension which some people mentioned, I don't really know what ki is so I doubt I was practising extending it. Thanks for all the explanations, it makes sense now.

Robyn Johnson 04-23-2002 02:40 PM

Probably would be an excellent pin if you were doing it on a person with no legs! :eek:

Robyn ;)

Mares 04-23-2002 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Robyn Johnson
Probably would be an excellent pin if you were doing it on a person with no legs! :eek:

Robyn ;)

True, but how would they sit in sieza to start the technique? :confused:

Tim Griffiths 04-24-2002 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mares


True, but how would they sit in sieza to start the technique? :confused:

Hmmm, that's got me stumped...


Sorry,

Tim

Tim Griffiths 04-25-2002 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don_Modesto


If you don't mind, who were [the aikikai shihan I referred to]?

Thanks.

Even if I minded, it's a 'matter of public record' at the [tempory] Aikido Israel web site: {plug}

http://www.weizmann.ac.il/home/rrluba/

Seki and Yokota shihan from hombu dojo, and Suganuma sensei.

Tim

Tim Griffiths 04-25-2002 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by akiy

Interesting. What would be, in your thoughts, the differences between pinning your uke and controling your uke's escape exits?

-- Jun

I would say that a pin is when you apply pressure to part of uke's body, and the direction he needs to move in to release this is blocked by the mat. A standing kotegeishi finish is a good example of this, and the standard nikkyo/sankyo finishes. Its a literal 'immobilization' of part of the body.

The other case (let's call it a supression) is when uke is not immobilized per se, but cannot get up because they can't get any leverage against the mat, or the direction they can get leverage (their escape route) is blocked by tori's centre. O-sensei's "drawing a circle of ki around uke", the kokyu ho ending, or just holding someones hands is this type of control. Another nice example is in the middle of a big slow traditional iriminage, where uke is thrown to the ground, and the only escape they have is to come back up/turn towards tori, and receive the second half of the technique.

The standard ikkyo finish can (IMO) be done in either way. What you can't do is half a pin and half a supression, which I think is where a lot of beginners have trouble.

Tim

Bruce Baker 04-25-2002 06:23 AM

Pinned verses something else
 
It is not always clear the optional more violent techniques that we have available from our pins in Aikido practice, but they are there.

As proficiency improves, crosstraining or examination of selfdefense techniques find their way into your search for knowledge, you will find the simplicity of pinning in practice a joy compared to other possibilitys?

If you are lucky, maybe your sensei will explore one or two of many practical applications from a pin?

I kind of see it backward, as I have explored the applications before coming to Aikido, so now I really enjoy the safer practice that lessons accidental strikes by concentrating on movement and flow ... not the end results.

It is good to explore avenues, but don't discount the fact that some techniques are steps in a journey to something more.

akiy 04-25-2002 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim Griffiths
I would say that a pin is when you apply pressure to part of uke's body, and the direction he needs to move in to release this is blocked by the mat. A standing kotegeishi finish is a good example of this, and the standard nikkyo/sankyo finishes. Its a literal 'immobilization' of part of the body.

The other case (let's call it a supression) is when uke is not immobilized per se, but cannot get up because they can't get any leverage against the mat, or the direction they can get leverage (their escape route) is blocked by tori's centre.

Good distinction, Tim! I like it.

I guess I usually try for the "control my uke's escape exits" rather than "pinning" them to the mat. It seems a lot more logical to me, at least, and feels to be an extension to the rest of the aikido principles.

-- Jun

marcus 04-25-2002 08:53 AM

My Sensei often says this about the 'pinning' at the end of suwari wasa kokyu ho:

"Keep your hands so your partner can't get up towards you, but so that he or she is free to roll away and/or escape"

/ marcus

Kat.C 04-25-2002 09:56 AM

We did this pin again at the end of class last night and I was working with a guy much larger than me, I had alot of difficulty taking him down. To keep him pinned I had to lean right over him and put all my weight that I could into it. I did not have enough reach to keep my back straight like most of the others, if I had kept the correct posture I would have been unable to hold him down. Am I missing something?

ScottyC 04-25-2002 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kat.C
We did this pin again at the end of class last night and I was working with a guy much larger than me, I had alot of difficulty taking him down. To keep him pinned I had to lean right over him and put all my weight that I could into it. I did not have enough reach to keep my back straight like most of the others, if I had kept the correct posture I would have been unable to hold him down. Am I missing something?
Probably yes and no. (Could that answer get any more nebulous? ;))

One the one hand, yes, you're probably missing something. Fortunately, there is a remedy for that: Keep Training!

Without actually seeing the positions, I won't venture to give specific advice, however I'll bet that there are some things you could do to improve the situation.

On the other hand, not every technique will always work for every combination of tori and uke. Some techniques/pins/whatever may be inappropriate choices, given the relative size, strength, speed, dexterity, ability, etc between them.

Not a very helpful reply, huh? :(

Next time you do this in class, ask a senior to look at what you're doing, and ask for advice. If possible, find a senior who's nearly your same size...


Scott

Don_Modesto 04-25-2002 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim Griffiths
Seki and Yokota shihan from hombu dojo, and Suganuma sensei.
Thanks. The reason I asked is that I saw Yasuno and Osawa on the Daito ryu videos marketed by Aikido Journal, and they seemed concerned to cover uke's hips during the pin.

sceptoor 04-26-2002 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kat.C
We did this pin again at the end of class last night and I was working with a guy much larger than me, I had alot of difficulty taking him down. To keep him pinned I had to lean right over him and put all my weight that I could into it. I did not have enough reach to keep my back straight like most of the others, if I had kept the correct posture I would have been unable to hold him down. Am I missing something?
The part where you do not need to "hold him down" is what you seem to be missing, but I'm just guessing.

It seems that you need to be in better position, and then you need to be centered and NOT touching uke at all, but rather your hands should be "hovering" just above Uke's shoulders, and the inside knee in uke's armpit.

Again, it's not really a matter of martial practicality, or even so much a true test or question of whether Uke can or cannot escape some other way, but an exercise in "proper centering". However, try this and you'll see that Uke does find it much more difficult to "escape", than if you were trying to hold uke down with your upper body strength. In fact, actually touching or connecting with uke's shoulders makes it easier for uke to get up and throw nage at the same time. Remember, this isn't Judo and it isn't about fighting, grappling, strength or struggling, it's Aikido and it's about the resolution of conflict. For uke, trying to sit up from that "control pin" at the end of Kokyu ho should be like trying to stand up while lying underneath a car.

The question here is almost pointless, because one may as well be asking why two people would be facing each other sitting in sieza while grabbing each others' wrists in the first place. The answer will always be---IT'S AN EXERCISE TO DEVELOP ONE'S CENTER!!! Either the sensei didn't mention this while teaching or someone isn't listening in class.

Anytime one runs into this problem where they have to ask, "Well what's the point of this?? I could get out of this easily. hmmmph. Bah!! I just don't see the use in this when I could just run away or let go or (insert whatever technique here)."

Here's the formula--
Subtract the need to "fight" or struggle. Subtract the notion that one is in competition with one's partner. One is NOT. Just forget all that. Subtract the need to use strength to "make a technique work". That isn't Aikido. None have any practicality in Aikido and therefore only hinder one's learning. Then add awareness of center. Multiply dexterity, agility, timing, and endurance by a factor of (who knows?). What is left is hopefully something that resembles Aikido or at least the path to Aikido.


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