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Violent? 02-20-2010 12:41 PM

Escalating
 
When I am training with someone difficult (who constantly corrects, or who corrects me when I am doing what sensei demonstrated), lately I find myself escalating the conflict by throwing the difficult partner harder, or being malicious when applying pins and locks. Usually this results in the partner escalating back, and a couple of times it's gotten too intense.

This behavior is the opposite of what I am training for. I spoke to a couple of sempai about it, and they both said that it's normal, something everyone struggles with. But they had a hard time putting words to how they struggle with it, and made it sound like it just happens and not to worry about it. But I don't want to incorporate this into my personality. I'd rather figure out how to control myself when people piss me off.

How normal is this? How do other people work through it? I don't think of myself as being otherwise vindictive or violent, and have never physically confronted someone before these on-the-mat scenarios, which are kind of like fights but not really. In the rest of my life I think of myself as being fairly easy going--I am not afraid of confrontation, but am certainly not one to pick a fight.

Erick Mead 02-20-2010 07:10 PM

Re: Escalating
 
Quote:

Anonymous User wrote: (Post 252752)
When I am training with someone difficult (who constantly corrects, or who corrects me when I am doing what sensei demonstrated), lately I find myself escalating the conflict by throwing the difficult partner harder, or being malicious when applying pins and locks.... But I don't want to incorporate this into my personality. I'd rather figure out how to control myself when people piss me off.

How normal is this? How do other people work through it?

Success does not teach. Failure does. Success might be sheer dumb luck. Tell your partner this, thank him for his concern, and inform him that you really need to fully experience your failures, without any interference intended to help you succeed.

odudog 02-20-2010 09:16 PM

Re: Escalating
 
As nage, your practice is your practice. If you don't want any corrections from your partner then you should say so. If you can't say so then just ignore it. Throwing the person harder just because that person annoyed you is incorrect. If you do that, then that is actually part of your personality.

dps 02-21-2010 03:15 AM

Re: Escalating
 
Quote:

Anonymous User wrote: (Post 252752)
When I am training with someone difficult (who constantly corrects, or who corrects me when I am doing what sensei demonstrated), lately I find myself escalating the conflict by throwing the difficult partner harder, or being malicious when applying pins and locks. Usually this results in the partner escalating back, and a couple of times it's gotten too intense.

This behavior is the opposite of what I am training for. I spoke to a couple of sempai about it, and they both said that it's normal, something everyone struggles with. But they had a hard time putting words to how they struggle with it, and made it sound like it just happens and not to worry about it. But I don't want to incorporate this into my personality. I'd rather figure out how to control myself when people piss me off.

How normal is this? How do other people work through it? I don't think of myself as being otherwise vindictive or violent, and have never physically confronted someone before these on-the-mat scenarios, which are kind of like fights but not really. In the rest of my life I think of myself as being fairly easy going--I am not afraid of confrontation, but am certainly not one to pick a fight.

I would get sensei's attention and bring him over to where the two of you are practicing and ask sensei's advice.

David

SeiserL 02-21-2010 08:23 AM

Re: Escalating
 
Apparently you are both leading in a counter productive way.
Get in charge of your own thoughts, emotions, and technique.
Now that is the training.

Abasan 02-21-2010 09:07 AM

Re: Escalating
 
Its good to train hard at times. Makes you appreciate the soft. As with all things however, take the middle road.

gregstec 02-21-2010 09:20 AM

Re: Escalating
 
I would echo everyone else's comments so far as well as add that if their corrections are valid, thank them for the input and accept it for what it's worth - however, if they are not, then just elevate yourself above it all by thanking them and moving on - after all, it is your training and not theirs.

You need to learn to control the situation by not allowing unwanted things to get to you. As you go through life they will always be there - the trick is to accept them for what they are and to either turn them into a positive spin or just ignore them.

Greg

David Orange 02-21-2010 12:20 PM

Re: Escalating
 
Quote:

Ahmad Abas wrote: (Post 252786)
Its good to train hard at times. Makes you appreciate the soft. As with all things however, take the middle road.

"Hard" training is very different from "violent" training.

Sounds like the OP is verging into violence and doesn't like it when the other guy escalates along with him, but that's the virtually certain result of getting violent to begin with.

David

Janet Rosen 02-21-2010 01:28 PM

Re: Escalating
 
Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote: (Post 252788)
IYou need to learn to control the situation by not allowing unwanted things to get to you. As you go through life they will always be there - the trick is to accept them for what they are and to either turn them into a positive spin or just ignore them.

Exactly.
I recognized the same tendency in myself early in my training, decided I didn't need or want to go that route, realized my reaction to the other person was totally defensive and ego-based and decided - so what if he thinks I need correcting? so what if he thinks I'm wrong and I don't? That's not a reflection of who I am, it just doesn't matter.

gregstec 02-21-2010 01:50 PM

Re: Escalating
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 252798)
Exactly.
I recognized the same tendency in myself early in my training, decided I didn't need or want to go that route, realized my reaction to the other person was totally defensive and ego-based and decided - so what if he thinks I need correcting? so what if he thinks I'm wrong and I don't? That's not a reflection of who I am, it just doesn't matter.

Yes, that is a good outlook. It is also important to remember that we all walk a dark path alone with only the light we ourselves provide. On occasion, we get lucky and bump into someone else that adds to our light by being on the same wavelength. However, most times we usually just bump into people that are way out of tune that insists theirs is the only melody to sing. You need to cherish the former and run from the latter. Bottom line is that life is too short to dwell on anything that hinders your walk down your path :)

lbb 02-21-2010 02:57 PM

Re: Escalating
 
Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote: (Post 252801)
On occasion, we get lucky and bump into someone else that adds to our light by being on the same wavelength. However, most times we usually just bump into people that are way out of tune that insists theirs is the only melody to sing.

...and sometimes these latter people, the ones that we think are way out of tune, think that we are the ones who are way out of tune...

...and sometimes they're right.

Given how easy it is for the two situations to look very similar, it's probably best to always allow for the possibility that you may be the one who is "out of tune". Even if you're sure that you're not, though, there's no sense butting heads over it. Get through it gracefully and move on.

gregstec 02-21-2010 05:11 PM

Re: Escalating
 
Quote:

Mary Malmros wrote: (Post 252803)
...and sometimes these latter people, the ones that we think are way out of tune, think that we are the ones who are way out of tune...

...and sometimes they're right.

Given how easy it is for the two situations to look very similar, it's probably best to always allow for the possibility that you may be the one who is "out of tune". Even if you're sure that you're not, though, there's no sense butting heads over it. Get through it gracefully and move on.

All true points - issues arise when one (or both sides) insists that they are right and the other side is wrong - people need to realize that there are many sides to a perspective and all sides can be true based on the relative position of the viewer. Positive outcomes can be realized when different sides agree that there are different points of view and not just the right side or the wrong side - do a tenkan and view the world from your opponent's view; you may be surprised at what you see...

Sorry for the apparent babel - I just finished a six-pack hot tub misogi and the world is very clear now; at least the small part I can see at the moment... :D

Greg

dave9nine 02-22-2010 10:12 AM

Re: Escalating
 
i would add:
depending on your dojo's orientation to talking on the mat, it may also be an option to actually put words to it as it happening, and let your partner know where your at verbally.
at my dojo it is made clear that at any point, if you feel uncomfortable with what's going on, you are encouraged to open your mouth and verbally let partner know that you want/dont want X,Y,Z. Sometimes in practicing something physical, we forget that we have verbal options for directing/steering our interactions towards safety if need be.
i suggest a "hey, okay, this is intense, let's tone it down a bit"
or even a " i didnt mean to escalate it like this, so let's scale back"

it is not being "weak" to request partner to scale back intensity; sometimes this is hard to accept.

just my 2 cents.
cheers.

-dave

NagaBaba 02-22-2010 10:25 AM

Re: Escalating
 
Quote:

Anonymous User wrote: (Post 252752)
How normal is this? .

I'd say: throwing hard - good!! being malicious - not good.

Your mind must be like a high quality sword blade: sharp and without any impurity.And emotions create impurities.

mathewjgano 02-22-2010 05:19 PM

Re: Escalating
 
Quote:

Anonymous User wrote: (Post 252752)
I'd rather figure out how to control myself when people piss me off.

For me it becomes a lot easier to de-escalate when I make it a primary goal. Sure, it's annoying, but you can let it go through the conscious choice to do so. The more you practice letting go of animosity, the easier it becomes. I try to remind myself of the "big picture: in a world where we have this http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/...0&id=892935060
my momentary problems usually seem pretty small-minded.

Quote:

How normal is this? How do other people work through it? I don't think of myself as being otherwise vindictive or violent, and have never physically confronted someone before these on-the-mat scenarios, which are kind of like fights but not really. In the rest of my life I think of myself as being fairly easy going--I am not afraid of confrontation, but am certainly not one to pick a fight.
I grew up with a motto telling me that to really beat someone you have to beat them at their own game. It's not bad advice really, but it also means I tend to fight fire with fire and there are times where that just leaves everyone a little burned. I cope by making it my mission to get along with folks and by calming my breath (long slow deep breaths). Remember, when you find situations like that, they are opportunities to make progress so perhaps that's a kind of silver lining to look toward...Masakatsu Agatsu. Focusing on the positive has always been a very powerful tool for me; when I am able to focus on something positive I find it keeps my actions a little more positive too.
I disagree with the idea that all emotions are like impurity. I believe when I'm at my best I am emotional: joyful and loving. For me that is the key to having an indominable spirit.

mathewjgano 02-22-2010 10:04 PM

Re: Escalating
 
Quote:

Matthew Gano wrote: (Post 252864)
I disagree with the idea that all emotions are like impurity. I believe when I'm at my best I am emotional: joyful and loving. For me that is the key to having an indominable spirit.

I just realized nagababa said emotions create impurity, not that they are impurity...bit of a difference between the two I imagine. Sorry if I mistook the meaning.

Eva Antonia 02-23-2010 02:25 AM

Re: Escalating
 
Hello,

I observed the same problem with myself...but not with every partner, only with one very special person - my son. It is just not possible to train SOME techniques with him, and these are the techniques neither he nor I master very well.

Finding out that the technique doesn't work with me, he gets aggressive or completely slack, not attacking or defending himself with the most minimal concentration & effort, a behaviour he only shows when training with ME but not with anyone else. Sort of parent-child authority conflict on the mat, very disturbing for all participants. And when seeing his negative attitude, I throw too hard or grip too strong, something I'd never do with any other partner. Obviously, he does the same with me, and when a technique does not work for him, he always manages to transform it into a very vicious sankyo.

I try to resolve the problem by not training these techniques with him (worst is irimi nage), but I am conscient that a better solution would be somehow not to get caught in this stupid fight for power.

Best regards,

Eva

ruthmc 02-23-2010 07:42 AM

Re: Escalating
 
Hi,

What you describe is your emotional reaction to what's happening, i.e. you feel frustrated that you are not being allowed to do your technique without interruption.

If this is really a problem for you, perhaps a word with your sensei is in order. Some people are able to tolerate interruption better than others, and if it's really affecting your training then you need to say something NOW!

However, it is useful to be able to learn how to tolerate interruption, as for many of us it's a part of our everyday lives at work and with our families ;) For example I've been interrupted several times in the course of writing this reply, but have not lost my train of thought nor become frustrated, as I know that I will finish it eventually :)

If you change partners frequently during class, you don't need to be exposed to the person who is winding you up for MOST of the class, so work on changing your thinking as Janet suggests - the person chattering in your ear need bother you very little in the overall scheme of things :cool:

As for escalating, decide that it is not an option for you and don't do it. Think of something else you can do instead - sing a song inside your head, think of blue skies and fluffy clouds, anything but get more physical..

Let us know how you get on,

Ruth

maynard 02-23-2010 08:19 AM

Re: Escalating
 
For me the real epiphany was...
"It's ok to suck at aikido, I do it all the time."

sakumeikan 02-25-2010 08:33 AM

Re: Escalating
 
Quote:

Anonymous User wrote: (Post 252752)
When I am training with someone difficult (who constantly corrects, or who corrects me when I am doing what sensei demonstrated), lately I find myself escalating the conflict by throwing the difficult partner harder, or being malicious when applying pins and locks. Usually this results in the partner escalating back, and a couple of times it's gotten too intense.

This behavior is the opposite of what I am training for. I spoke to a couple of sempai about it, and they both said that it's normal, something everyone struggles with. But they had a hard time putting words to how they struggle with it, and made it sound like it just happens and not to worry about it. But I don't want to incorporate this into my personality. I'd rather figure out how to control myself when people piss me off.

How normal is this? How do other people work through it? I don't think of myself as being otherwise vindictive or violent, and have never physically confronted someone before these on-the-mat scenarios, which are kind of like fights but not really. In the rest of my life I think of myself as being fairly easy going--I am not afraid of confrontation, but am certainly not one to pick a fight.

Hi,
Being the gentleman that I am I can tell you that on the few occasions this situation has occurred in my Aikido career I initially used to fight fire with fire.If the guy wanted a war he got one.After a while I got fed up with this and later when it happened again[I a guy was throwing me in a break arm shiho nage] I had a quiet word in his ear indicating if he did it again I would do him.He responded favourably and we parted with a new understanding of the rules of engagement.Another occasion I recall was a violent confrontation with a young Japanese guy.Nearly feather dusters at hundred yards.We were separated by Fujita Sensei, the class teacher at the time.
Rather than get caught up in a death match , move away and just ignore the guy.If he comes back, you know he is looking for trouble.At that point make a decision.
Good luck , Joe.

sakumeikan 02-25-2010 08:37 AM

Re: Escalating
 
Quote:

Joe Curran wrote: (Post 253024)
Hi,
Being the gentleman that I am I can tell you that on the few occasions this situation has occurred in my Aikido career I initially used to fight fire with fire.If the guy wanted a war he got one.After a while I got fed up with this and later when it happened again[I a guy was throwing me in a break arm shiho nage] I had a quiet word in his ear indicating if he did it again I would do him.He responded favourably and we parted with a new understanding of the rules of engagement.Another occasion I recall was a violent confrontation with a young Japanese guy.Nearly feather dusters at hundred yards.We were separated by Fujita Sensei, the class teacher at the time.
Rather than get caught up in a death match , move away and just ignore the guy.If he comes back, you know he is looking for trouble.At that point make a decision.
Good luck , Joe.

Hi again,
If the guy keeps trying to coach you , just let him know you can work it out yourself No need for you to start getting uptight.Both of you getting aggressive wont help. Joe.

giriasis 03-15-2010 10:49 PM

Re: Escalating
 
Oh, the battles of the egos. One person has to prove the other is better.

There are different ways to handle this.

1. You can stop practicing and call sensei over and ask for his advice. I used to do this when I was lower in rank or equal in rank and I was finding the other persons instructions frustrating. I would either get the proper or better correction or the reinforcement that I was doing the technique properly.

2. You can just thank them for the advice. And then when it's their turn, don't say a word. Don't help at all. This is usually effective when the other person is junior in rank. I've had this happen getting ready for 2nd kyu and no-kyu is correcting my technique. Sensei was watching and observed the whole thing. He finally came over when no-kyu couldn't figure our his left from right while I just kept my mouth shut. My point to the lower rank - the techniques was not as easy as it seemed. (Sensei came over on his own accord.)

3. You know you are doing the technique right but your partner is a newbie you so go way too easy on the person. Thus as a result they don't feel a thing, and the newbie thinks you are doing the technique wrong. They make a comment. The solution you either call sensei over or you don't go as easy (but not rough) as you were doing. I found that you need to present confidence to a newbie and they will go where they need to go. This is NOT being rough on your partner or jerking them around. You need to be more skilled to up the ante a little so that you don't hurt your partner. This is not recommended if you are in the low kyus or new so call sensei over.

4. This one is more of constraining a senior person from escalating on you. Your training with a higher ranking person, they start getting more and more resistant with you. They don't like you to talk to them, and they don't talk at all. You get frustrated and want to jerk on them. You can't. In response you get softer and more compliant in your ukemi go exactly where you need to go. Be careful of getting too soft or they will torque your arm off. This is a good way to avoid escalating egos. If it gets bad - call sensei over.

5. You have a chatty, well-meaning higher ranking person and each time you move they correct you. Be polite and ask them if they don't mind if you just play with it some or you call sensei over to help you out.

6. Finally, if you are truly peeved, bow out. (It's too late to call sensei over.) You don't have to train with the person. Just bow and sit at the side of the mat. Don't engage. Overcome the ego, let go and walk away. It's not worth it. It's only aikido.

So basically, you call sensei over or bow out if it has esacalated too high. I have seen egos get the best of good people. Let it go. Move on. It's only aikido.

Aikibu 03-15-2010 11:53 PM

Re: Escalating
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 252849)
I'd say: throwing hard - good!! being malicious - not good.

Your mind must be like a high quality sword blade: sharp and without any impurity.And emotions create impurities.

This is Aikido! To sharpen your mind and polish your spirit...:)

William Hazen

RED 03-16-2010 03:03 PM

Re: Escalating
 
Quote:

Anonymous User wrote: (Post 252752)
When I am training with someone difficult (who constantly corrects, or who corrects me when I am doing what sensei demonstrated), lately I find myself escalating the conflict by throwing the difficult partner harder, or being malicious when applying pins and locks. Usually this results in the partner escalating back, and a couple of times it's gotten too intense.

This behavior is the opposite of what I am training for. I spoke to a couple of sempai about it, and they both said that it's normal, something everyone struggles with. But they had a hard time putting words to how they struggle with it, and made it sound like it just happens and not to worry about it. But I don't want to incorporate this into my personality. I'd rather figure out how to control myself when people piss me off.

How normal is this? How do other people work through it? I don't think of myself as being otherwise vindictive or violent, and have never physically confronted someone before these on-the-mat scenarios, which are kind of like fights but not really. In the rest of my life I think of myself as being fairly easy going--I am not afraid of confrontation, but am certainly not one to pick a fight.

If they are focused on making you better, and you are focused on making you better... then all the training is for you, and none for them. How generous they are.. and how lucky you are! :p

bulevardi 03-18-2010 08:36 AM

Re: Escalating
 
Quote:

Anonymous User wrote: (Post 252752)
I'd rather figure out how to control myself when people piss me off.

I surely understand what you're talking about.
After working several years in a few client services with lots of complaints, I can say that even verbal (for example by phone), it's not just that easy to control yourself when people are insulting you, discussing, argueing, doing difficult,...
For a few conversations it works to stay calm, but take several same idiot conversations after each other and you're getting mad too after a while.
We all know that the trick is to just stay calm. Being able doing that is quite easy, but being able doing that all the time isn't easy.
Also, if the other person challenges you and tries to make you angry, it's tempting to do the same, go with his direction and get upset aswel. It's tempting to make your point clear instead of just nodding 'yes you are right' if he isn't.

It's more easy to get involved in the discussion than ignoring it.

I'm trying breathing methods to stay my mind clean and calm at the moment. Let the bad things flow over your head and stay positive. Hard task sometimes.
Quote:

"Hard" training is very different from "violent" training.
I'd say: throwing hard - good!! being malicious - not good.
Uhu, you have to stay assertive.


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