AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   Training (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=15)
-   -   Jamming a technique (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17694)

David Yap 02-12-2010 02:16 AM

Jamming a technique
 
Hi all,

Can anyone define exactly what constitute a "jam".

For example, is a very firm grip on a senior yudansha consider a jam? Preventing a technique from working - a jam? Not knowing a technique and unable to flow with the nage - a jam?

And, when is a jam polite and when it is not?

Hope to hear from you.

Best training

David Y

SeiserL 02-12-2010 05:12 AM

Re: Jamming a technique
 
IMHO, initiate and intercept before the approach/attack reaches its maximum power extension on the intended target, usually ends up taking their balance.

jss 02-12-2010 07:25 AM

Re: Jamming a technique
 
Quote:

David Yap wrote: (Post 252199)
Can anyone define exactly what constitute a "jam".

Willfully and actively preventing tori from making the technique happen, so that nothing really happens. (So no taking over by uke.)

Quote:

For example, is a very firm grip on a senior yudansha consider a jam? Preventing a technique from working - a jam? Not knowing a technique and unable to flow with the nage - a jam?
No, unless you keep changing your grip to jam the solutions the yudansha comes up with to deal with your grip.
Yes.
No. The situation as such is more complicated than that, but with regards to jamming: that's just poor execution by nage.

Quote:

And, when is a jam polite and when it is not?
When the person jamming the technique does it to make a valid point and the person being jammed can accept this as a teaching or training methodology.

ruthmc 02-14-2010 03:27 AM

Re: Jamming a technique
 
It's a jam when uke blocks tori from attacking their own centre via the technique because they know what's coming next and purposefully move to avoid it.

It's probably only ok to jam if tori is about to inflict injury on uke or throw uke into somebody else or the wall.

Ruth

George S. Ledyard 02-14-2010 11:01 AM

Re: Jamming a technique
 
Quote:

David Yap wrote: (Post 252199)
Hi all,

Can anyone define exactly what constitute a "jam".

For example, is a very firm grip on a senior yudansha consider a jam? Preventing a technique from working - a jam? Not knowing a technique and unable to flow with the nage - a jam?

And, when is a jam polite and when it is not?

Hope to hear from you.

Best training

David Y

"Jamming" would be any action which stops the flow of movement. It can be offensive or defensive, in other words uke or nage might "jam" a technique.

It's not what is "polite" it's what makes sense martially. If someone stops your technique but is totally "open" then "jamming" in that way was not martially effective. Ones partner should make one aware of this by hitting him.

"Jamming" is usually used effectively as a "bounce". I "jam" your movement and let your power rebound off my power then I give the movement a new direction.

"Jamming" can also be used to simply crush your opponent's defenses for striking purposes.

Simply stopping someone's technique is not good ukemi. If you grab someone strongly so they can't do a technique but they are still able to strike you or kick you, then it was bad ukemi. So if that's what is meant by "jamming" than it' not a good idea.

DH 02-14-2010 01:29 PM

Re: Jamming a technique
 
Its worth considering that jamming (stopping movement) has diminishing returns and is really not a way to go. It is far more effective and useful to "change" and keep movement going. A bounce-or the way I would bounce people- is all about redirecting force, not hitting power to power. At no time do I ever consider power-to-power acceptable. Even when for all intent and purpose it looks to an outsider like a crashing of forces it is not at all what is happening, even with straight jabs-to-jabs and stick-to-stick. The displacement goes all but unseen, it leaves them wondering why they can't get in, but conversely can't avoid you coming in, and they just keep getting hit and controlled.

I like nothing better than for an attacker to think he has what he wants...till it's taken away. Misdirection, either by adding or taking away is far more effective martially. It's all about change not stopping or jamming. The only real difference I see is what MAers do -or should I say HAVE to do in order to make change. For many its all about big body changes and telegraphed movements that are easily read and responded to.

There are far superior ways to move that become extremely ghosty then...wham! And you didn't feel where it came from, didn't "read" any perceived movement- as there is no wind up- and your every move is under someone else's control! Aiki works in Aikido, Daito ryu, judo, MMA, and any kind of weapon use and at full speed.
Cheers
Dan

George S. Ledyard 02-15-2010 04:07 AM

Re: Jamming a technique
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 252383)
Its worth considering that jamming (stopping movement) has diminishing returns and is really not a way to go. It is far more effective and useful to "change" and keep movement going. A bounce-or the way I would bounce people- is all about redirecting force, not hitting power to power. At no time do I ever consider power-to-power acceptable.

Hi Dan,
I agree with everything you've said. I was thinking primarily of techniques like the one Ellis taught us years ago to reverse a shiho nage. It did involve a movement that I would call "jamming" (you struck your own arm to prevent the opponent from passing it throufg to the lock) but it also flowed instantly into a redirection. It did have an element of power to power and it felt like you'd hit a wall when it was done to you. Since the redirection was instantaneous it might not really qualify as "jamming"; it was definitely a "bounce".
- George

Mark Uttech 02-15-2010 08:08 AM

Re: Jamming a technique
 
Onegaishimasu. Resisting a technique could be called 'causing a jam'.I tell my students that resisting technique prevents your partner from learning the technique and we are on the mat to help each other learn, not prevent each other from learning.

In gassho,

Mark

DH 02-15-2010 08:26 AM

Re: Jamming a technique
 
Hi George
Sure, there are any number of techniques like that, from any number of arts. I think all of us can draw on things we know for examples. I was never a fan of bouncing people out or allowing them to roll away anyway. While I greatly admire Ueshiba choosing to go down that road, I prefer to keep people in contact with me and controlled from various contact points offered by them or me.

My previous comments were based on current training and the path that certain people are now undertaking to develop real aiki and be able to use it. IOW, for the aiki based crowd who are genuinely interested in an Aiki approach that "actually" works across the full spectrum of combatives from aikido to Daito ryu to judo to MMA.

In order to make that work, people need to effect change with every point of contact; be it fients, jabs, grabs, or throws. The real key is people simply cannot do it well without a conditioned aiki body behind it, but having a conditioned body is only the beginning, there are "ways" to use that body with developed internal skills- that are not waza related, rather they are an adaptive fluid approach to all combatives. IME, developed internal power and the knowledge of how to actually use it are most certainly NOT all the same.
Cheers
Dan

P.S.Hey did you get my two text messages in reply to your email? I was doing a seminar in Florida and didn't have email access.

George S. Ledyard 02-15-2010 11:00 AM

Re: Jamming a technique
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 252431)
Hi George
Sure, there are any number of techniques like that, from any number of arts. I think all of us can draw on things we know for examples. I was never a fan of bouncing people out or allowing them to roll away anyway. While I greatly admire Ueshiba choosing to go down that road, I prefer to keep people in contact with me and controlled from various contact points offered by them or me.

My previous comments were based on current training and the path that certain people are now undertaking to develop real aiki and be able to use it. IOW, for the aiki based crowd who are genuinely interested in an Aiki approach that "actually" works across the full spectrum of combatives from aikido to Daito ryu to judo to MMA.

In order to make that work, people need to effect change with every point of contact; be it fients, jabs, grabs, or throws. The real key is people simply cannot do it well without a conditioned aiki body behind it, but having a conditioned body is only the beginning, there are "ways" to use that body with developed internal skills- that are not waza related, rather they are an adaptive fluid approach to all combatives. IME, developed internal power and the knowledge of how to actually use it are most certainly NOT all the same.
Cheers
Dan

P.S.Hey did you get my two text messages in reply to your email? I was doing a seminar in Florida and didn't have email access.

Yes I did get the messages... it took me a few moments to realize who was writing as it only showed your number not a name. But when you said you were in Florida I knew it was you since I had been at Josh's just the weekend before. Anyway, thanks so much. I am looking forward to getting together at some point soon.

David Yap 02-16-2010 10:07 AM

Re: Jamming a technique
 
Thanks, everyone, for your replies.

I have branded as a "Jammer". I was wondering whether I fit the profile of one. So far, I am safe.

I tend to agree with Dan. Aiki is about seeking the path of least resistance (changing directions) rather than going against the resistance. I get irritated by nage who jerks or bounces me around instead of doing a free flowing technique on me. To avoid injury, the jerking and bouncing cause me to stiffen up and assume a defensive stance. Perhaps this is jamming as far as they are concerned.

Best training,

David Y

ruthmc 02-17-2010 05:33 AM

Re: Jamming a technique
 
Quote:

David Yap wrote: (Post 252499)
Thanks, everyone, for your replies.

I have branded as a "Jammer". I was wondering whether I fit the profile of one. So far, I am safe.

I tend to agree with Dan. Aiki is about seeking the path of least resistance (changing directions) rather than going against the resistance. I get irritated by nage who jerks or bounces me around instead of doing a free flowing technique on me. To avoid injury, the jerking and bouncing cause me to stiffen up and assume a defensive stance. Perhaps this is jamming as far as they are concerned.

Best training,

David Y

In that case, if you are a Jammer, then they are Jerks!

Some folk need to learn a bit of muscle maturity - to me the ones who drag and jerk you around are like toddlers flailing their arms about with full force and zero control :uch:

Fortunately most people get this control, but there are always a few who don't, in which case you have to do what you need to do to protect yourself :)

Ruth

Abasan 02-17-2010 06:33 AM

Re: Jamming a technique
 
David, personally I think if you 'jam' someone because he's only using brute force to throw you, you are ok. Unless of course you're doing it to a beginner who doesn't know anything better. But it depends on nage really. If he's not interested in finding the aiki solution in his training, then don't bother jamming his technique, just flop like an aiki bunny. Saves you a lot of grief in the end.

Daniel Blanco 02-17-2010 02:13 PM

Re: Jamming a technique
 
In Aikido we learn from our partner, if your partner is not letting u perform your tech, then its bad for both of you and its bad ukemi, if u are both training on switching from one tech to the other, then uke should provide only moderate resistance so nage can feel and redirect to another tech, aikido is cooperative training so all can learn.

danielajames 02-17-2010 09:00 PM

Re: Jamming a technique
 
Just for fun

Jamming -verb.
When Uke stops or prevents Nage from executing a set technique. Most often found in the wild in the following circumstances
1. When visiting another dojo, where everyone is friendly except the 2ic who needs to mark dojo/style turf (possibly under instruction from sensei)
2. Between 2 practitioners of similar experience or rank trying to decide "size" issues
3. A Sempai demonstrating dominance to a Kohai
4. At seminars or similar, where there is a confluence of Aikidoka, personalities, styles etc...
5. By Aikidoka wondering if Aikido works or proving aikido doesn't work, usually by
a. Beginner
b. Mid Kyu grade
c. Senior student from another art now doing aikido
best,
dan

David Yap 02-17-2010 09:44 PM

Re: Jamming a technique
 
Quote:

Ahmad Abas wrote: (Post 252571)
David, personally I think if you 'jam' someone because he's only using brute force to throw you, you are ok. Unless of course you're doing it to a beginner who doesn't know anything better. But it depends on nage really. If he's not interested in finding the aiki solution in his training, then don't bother jamming his technique, just flop like an aiki bunny. Saves you a lot of grief in the end.

Yes, I absolutely agree with you, especially the grief part.

David Yap 02-17-2010 10:07 PM

Re: Jamming a technique
 
Quote:

Daniel Blanco wrote: (Post 252608)
In Aikido we learn from our partner, if your partner is not letting u perform your tech, then its bad for both of you and its bad ukemi, if u are both training on switching from one tech to the other, then uke should provide only moderate resistance so nage can feel and redirect to another tech, aikido is cooperative training so all can learn.

Hi Daniel,

Agreed. Aiki-do practice is Yin practice. Both partners practising pre-agreed movements and even at randori at higher level. I have been training for 17 years and it is not in my nature to jam anyone's technique unless (as Ruth has indicated) I feel the tori is about to inflict injury to me by not availing to me the space to take ukemi or by excessive use of force. As a tori, I sometime initiate a bit of resistance ("to pull in the slack") in order to search for my partner's center. As a uke, I am very conscious of my action and I know when to offer constructive resistance but never destructive resistance.

Best training

David Y

David Yap 02-17-2010 10:26 PM

Re: Jamming a technique
 
Hi all,

Another action by Nage that "irritates" and put me into a defensive mode. Irimi nage, Tori places his hand on my face with his fingers on or about my eyes. For me, this is an accident/major eye injury waiting to be happened. In my class, I encourage students to place their hands on Uke's neck or side of the face with fingers away from the eyes area and alert them the danger.

When someone puts pressure about my eyes, instinctively, I will push his/her hand away. Is my action consider a jam?

David Y

Carsten Möllering 02-18-2010 01:45 AM

Re: Jamming a technique
 
Very interesting!

Quote:

Daniel Blanco wrote: (Post 252608)
In Aikido we learn from our partner, if your partner is not letting u perform your tech, then its bad for both of you and its bad ukemi, if u are both training on switching from one tech to the other, then uke should provide only moderate resistance so nage can feel and redirect to another tech, aikido is cooperative training so all can learn.

Dont't you do counters in your training so uke takes over and throws tori?

Quote:

David Yap wrote: (Post 252626)
Another action by Nage that "irritates" and put me into a defensive mode. Irimi nage, Tori places his hand on my face with his fingers on or about my eyes. For me, this is an accident/major eye injury waiting to be happened.

We sometimes do techiques to the eyes: Hand on the chin and fingers to the eyes. It's a variation of irimi nage. Don't you practice this one?

We often practice with uke giving strong resistance and with uke trying to hinder the technique. We don't change the technique but try to modify it so we can do it instead.
Don't you practice this way?

If not: What are your ways then to learn to deal with not cooperating uke?

Carsten

David Yap 02-18-2010 03:07 AM

Re: Jamming a technique
 
Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 252629)
Very interesting!
Dont't you do counters in your training so uke takes over and throws tori?

You meant kaeshi waza. Of course, we do but only from intermediate onwards otherwise we will be creating a lot of jammers who will then go around to say Aiki-do doesn't work. The purpose of kaeshi waza is show that Aiki-do does not work without the underlying principles or the technique was done half-heartedly.
Quote:

We sometimes do techiques to the eyes: Hand on the chin and fingers to the eyes. It's a variation of irimi nage. Don't you practice this one?
Of course, we do. Like I said, it should be done with care. In a dojo environment, the Uke puts his trust in the Tori and offers an opening to the Tori to practise his technique. If you practise with martial integrity, you would always have one hand ready to cover your face or other openings even when you are attacking. Be realistic, not all Tori have control - they can't tell the difference between an extension and a jerk to the face; some don't even keep their nails short and clean.
Quote:

We often practice with uke giving strong resistance and with uke trying to hinder the technique. We don't change the technique but try to modify it so we can do it instead.
Don't you practice this way?
We do. Like I said, Aiki-do practise is a Yin practise but there are some who do not realize that and then change it to Yang practice with a Force versus Force training.
Quote:

If not: What are your ways then to learn to deal with not cooperating uke?
There are Aiki way and the martial integrity way such as strikes. I am pretty good with the latter but I am passionately pursuing the Aiki way.

Best training

David Yap

Carsten Möllering 02-18-2010 06:40 AM

Re: Jamming a technique
 
Thank you for answering!

Quote:

David Yap wrote: (Post 252632)
You meant kaeshi waza.

Well no, I did not refer to kaeshi waza. Of course kaeshi waza can be subject of our teaching just like other techniques are.

But what I meant is, that - from a certain level on - taking over the action is a normal and expected behavior of our uke everytime we practice.
So, I am not sure but maybe, what here is called "to jam a technique" could be the expected behavior of uke in our practice.

Quote:

In a dojo environment, the Uke puts his trust in the Tori and offers an opening to the Tori to practise his technique. If you practise with martial integrity, you would always have one hand ready to cover your face or other openings even when you are attacking.
In our practice uke - from a certain level on - is expected not to offer openings. On the contrary he is expected to protect himself and to attack with as much martial integrity the tori can handle.

Quote:

We do. Like I said, Aiki-do practise is a Yin practise but there are some who do not realize that and then change it to Yang practice with a Force versus Force training.
I am not sure what you mean with "yin practice"? Doesn' t aikido consist of yin and yang elements?

Quote:

There are Aiki way and the martial integrity way such as strikes.
I understand you consider strikes not to be part of aiki or aikido?
We do have a lot of strikes in our aikido. Some of us do makiwara-Training.

Greetings,
Carsten

Eric Winters 02-18-2010 07:35 AM

Re: Jamming a technique
 
Hello,

In training, Morihiro Saito would say that both uke and nage should feel like they are moving through molasses. There are a couple of reasons to do this. One is it builds up your muscular strength and postural muscles (internal?) and you will know when your body is not in alignment because it will be very hard to move uke. Also you can feel when you have uke's balance because they will not be able to give much resistance. Basically it is not that good to go to both extremes, like being too cooperative or shutting someone down.

Best,

Eric

David Yap 02-18-2010 08:16 PM

Re: Jamming a technique
 
Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 252636)
Thank you for answering!

Well no, I did not refer to kaeshi waza. Of course kaeshi waza can be subject of our teaching just like other techniques are.

But what I meant is, that - from a certain level on - taking over the action is a normal and expected behavior of our uke everytime we practice.
So, I am not sure but maybe, what here is called "to jam a technique" could be the expected behavior of uke in our practice.

In our practice uke - from a certain level on - is expected not to offer openings. On the contrary he is expected to protect himself and to attack with as much martial integrity the tori can handle.

What you practise is good. But such practice (involving jamming) is not acceptable in most dojo here.
Quote:

I am not sure what you mean with "yin practice"? Doesn' t aikido consist of yin and yang elements?
Of course, aiki-do consists of yin and yang elements. You also consider the fact that one man's yin is another man's yang.

Quote:

I understand you consider strikes not to be part of aiki or aikido? We do have a lot of strikes in our aikido. Some of us do makiwara-Training.
Personally, I do a lot of strikes in my other MA so I try not to in my aiki-do. Instead, I try to apply the mechanics of strikings in my aiki-do waza.

Happy training.

David Y

Abasan 02-19-2010 04:08 AM

Re: Jamming a technique
 
Quote:

Eric Winters wrote: (Post 252638)
Hello,

In training, Morihiro Saito would say that both uke and nage should feel like they are moving through molasses. There are a couple of reasons to do this. One is it builds up your muscular strength and postural muscles (internal?) and you will know when your body is not in alignment because it will be very hard to move uke. Also you can feel when you have uke's balance because they will not be able to give much resistance. Basically it is not that good to go to both extremes, like being too cooperative or shutting someone down.

Best,

Eric

can you elaborate what you mean by moving through molasses. Are you saying that uke and nage should be actively or dynamically resisting/attacking uh... slowly?

barron 02-19-2010 12:17 PM

Re: Jamming a technique
 
IMHO most "jammers" work from either the position of ego and or the pre-knowledge of the technique and therefore the manner in which they can resist it.
I have rarely learned anything from a jammer other than about their personality/attitude.
When faced with a jammer I like to stand there an smile and then allow them to do the technique on me as I perform the role of Uke to help them to work on their flow and technique. As uke I am working on my flexibility and discovering places I might reverse the technique or apply a good atemi (in my mind).
Cheers


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:56 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.