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-   -   Sacrifice Throws/Stemmi in Aikido (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1760)

MaylandL 04-15-2002 11:05 PM

Sacrifice Throws/Stemmi in Aikido
 
I am interested in peoples views on the benefits and disadvantages of Sacrifice Throws/Stemmi's in Aikido.

Having visited different dojos and also training with jujitsu practitioners, I notice the use of sacrifice throws. I've noticed that the Yoseikan Aikidoka that I've trained with have trained in Sacrifice throws on a regular basis.

At the aikikai dojos that I train at we dont train in sacrifice throws. From what I practiced and seen, it seems from Nage's perspective that a significant amount of blending and movement is required. Also from Uke's perspective, the attack must be sincere and the ukemi must be of a high standard.

This got me thinking...does sacrifice throws provide an excellent opportunity to train in blending and for uke to practice their ukemi?

Are there any other aikidoka that train sacrifice throws on a regular basis?

What benefits do you gain from it?

Are there any limitations or disadvantages that you see?

When should sacrifice throws be introduced in terms of the level of an aikidokas experience?

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

Chuck.Gordon 04-15-2002 11:19 PM

Sutemi, to throw away the body.

Sometimes, it's the best way to get where you need to be. Ukemi, for instance, is really sutemi. And unless you can turn your ukemi into sutemi, then it's just martial masturbation. YMMV.

Chuck

MaylandL 04-16-2002 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LOEP
Sutemi, to throw away the body.

And unless you can turn your ukemi into sutemi, then it's just martial masturbation. YMMV.

Chuck

martial masturbation...now that is a "interesting" image :eek: . Lets not go there. Well I have been told that what I do is a load of w*nk, every tao and zen :p ;)

Happy training

jk 04-16-2002 04:35 AM

Hi Chuck,

Could you provide a more detailed explanation of ukemi = sutemi?

Regards,

Chuck.Gordon 04-16-2002 09:14 AM

You asked ...
 
Quote:

Originally posted by jk
Hi Chuck,

Could you provide a more detailed explanation of ukemi = sutemi?

Regards,

Hmm. Purely my own speculation with some input from my teachers and other folks I respect. All this IMNSHO ...

In taking ukemi, unless you're willing to throw away your body (sutemi), then you're holding something back.

Note that I include in ukemi attacking as well as actually receiving attacks.

Unless you can punch, strike, hit properly, you can't give an honest, committed attack. Other components of that equation include committment, focus, intent.

As you train, you do so at varying levels of intensity, but uke's job is always to make an honest attack (within the confines of the training paradigm you and your partner agree upon), even at half or quarter speed. Unless the attack is committed and realistic -- if it is false -- the response is also false.

Sutemi is uke giving you his or her energy in that attack so you can use it to build the technique you're practicing. Note that this isn't necessarily tru in the _learning_ of techniques, but is necessary for the -practice- of technique.

Once the partners engage, uke must remain committed and 'dangerous' throughout, or else the atack simply fizzles out and then nage/tori/shite is left holding th ebag, so to speak. Again, uke must 'sacrifice the body' to maintain the pressure on his partner.

Then we reach the point of the throw or pin and again, sutemi is needed, I think, for uke to take the fall. If both players move at speed with full intent, uke must abandon the body in order to survive the response.

At any time, holding back, trying to protect the body, simply results in tension, misplaced focus, poor flow of energy.

Now, all that said (he rambled), such practice is not ALWAYS necessary, but should be, I believe, an integral, if somewhat advanced, part of every budoka's training as they progress.

The sooner uke learnes to give up the body to the throw, the sooner he or she truly learns that giving up the body is not surrender, it is being open to the experience, being compliant (ju), and, importantly, it allows uke to then be relaxed, energetic and capable of mounting (at need) a counter or reversal.

Chuck

AikiAlf 04-16-2002 11:53 AM

As in you're throwing uke and they turn that breakfall into a tighter circle that pulls you off your feet and next thing you know you're on your head.

martial masturbation.. like doing acrobatic aerials just to land on your back defenseless, zanshin lost.

Don_Modesto 04-16-2002 01:20 PM

Re: Sacrifice Throws/Stemmi in Aikido
 
Quote:

Originally posted by MaylandL
1 Are there any other aikidoka that train sacrifice throws on a regular basis?

2 What benefits do you gain from it?

3 Are there any limitations or disadvantages that you see?

4 When should sacrifice throws be introduced in terms of the level of an aikidokas experience?

1 I've seen in in both dojo I've been training in here.

2--

NAGE: The wonderful looks of horror on uke's face (but it seems like a last ditch chance to me.)

UKE: Makes you improve your spontaneity.

3 Uke recovers his feet before nage. Also, I'm a klutz so discount accordingly, but I always seem to pull uke's shin into my groin.

4. After breakfalls are mastered.

Ghost Fox 04-16-2002 04:22 PM

Re: Sacrifice Throws/Stemmi in Aikido
 
Quote:

Originally posted by MaylandL
Are there any other aikidoka that train sacrifice throws on a regular basis?

I practice them about once a week usually during free practice.

What benefits do you gain from it?

I think most attackers are caught by surprise by your willingness to go to the floor.

The added weight of your complete body behind a throw generates some extra energy for your throw.

I agree with Don on it being a last ditch chance. By adding your body to the throw you don have to worry as much on maai and timing. Or should I say, when you fail to maintain proper maai and timing for a non-sacrifice throw you can compensate by using your body.

Are there any limitations or disadvantages that you see?

Hurt like heck on concrete. :freaky:

Not as usefull in multiple opponent situation.

If you mess-up uke ends up on top of you. :grr:

When should sacrifice throws be introduced in terms of the level of an aikidokas experience?

I agree with Don. Also, your ukemi has to be intuitive and sensitive to nage.

:triangle: :circle: :square:

jimvance 04-18-2002 12:30 PM

Kokoro no Sutemi
 
We practice with the adage "kokoro no sutemi". It is integral to the philosophy at our dojo, pertaining both to kata and randori. Ukemi teaches sutemi at a gross (beginning) level. I think that through the role of uke, the focus on sutemi allows the practitioner to feel the connection between them and their partner, how a particular technique affects them. This translates into a middle level of uke feeling suki (openings) in the connection; the body can feel suki through ukemi, it is aware of suki through sutemi (there is no self and other, only the connected unit). This bleeds over into training as tori, you are fitting into uke's kuzushi ("balance break"), into the suki caused by kuzushi. Improper fitting results in loss of initiative (sente) and kaeshi waza can occur. At the higher levels, I have seen my teachers apply sutemi in many different ways. Some have to do with just relaxing the leading arm enough in koshinage. Just the other day I thought I had one of my teachers wrapped up and was going to foot sweep his butt into next week; without speeding up or applying more strength, they were able to give up and fit into a new relationship that pinned my arm and face firmly to the mat.
This to me was the purpose of "sutemi waza". They are not techniques where you sacrifice yourself by falling to the ground; as a matter of fact, my teachers can do yoko wakare (side separation throw) standing up. They still fall down, they just don't have to fall all the way to the ground.
We do not practice "sacrifice throws" until about nidan level or higher, but on a more subtle level, we practice sutemi waza starting day one.

Jim Vance

warriorwoman 04-21-2002 08:15 PM

sacrifice throws/sutemi in aikido
 
This is an interesting thread which should stimulate some thought. Sutemi can also be applied to everyday living situations, as well. I invite you to check out the article on Sutemi on my website.
janet dtantirojanarat
www.warriorwoman.org

darin 04-22-2002 01:42 AM

Hey Mayland! Which school do you train with in Perth?

Sacrifice throws are an excellent set of techniques. It doesn't matter if the person wants to be thrown or not. If done correctly you can take down anyone. I think they are much easier to use than wrist locks and throws. Those who criticise sacrifice throws know nothing about them.

MaylandL 04-22-2002 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by darin
Hey Mayland! Which school do you train with in Perth?

Two dojos at Subiaco Police and Citizens and a dojo in Mosman Park.

darin 04-22-2002 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MaylandL


Two dojos at Subiaco Police and Citizens and a dojo in Mosman Park.

So you train Tomiki style with Katie Noad and Yoshi Kitamori?

MaylandL 04-23-2002 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by darin


So you train Tomiki style with Katie Noad and Yoshi Kitamori?

Actually, Aikikai with Freddy Aeppli and John Langley :)

darin 04-23-2002 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MaylandL


Actually, Aikikai with Freddy Aeppli and John Langley :)

I attended one or two of John's classes.

sceptoor 04-27-2002 12:57 AM

Can someone define what a "sacrifice throw" is more clearly?? At first it sounded as though uke is just being more compliant somehow, but now it sounds like nage is being "thrown" from uke's......attack....??

How does that help Nage??

Are we speaking of reversal exercises where Uke becomes Nage?? If so, is Nage somehow allowing this to happen and why??

guest1234 04-27-2002 09:45 AM

I think there are two parallel discussions going on here, one on sacrifice throws, and one on sacrifice falls, both being referred to as 'sutemi' (hmm, would it be sutemi waza and sutemi ukemi?:confused: ). In the first, nage allows uke's attack to throw him and out of how he falls regains his balance while causing uke to lose his. I would agree with whoever it was said this is a last ditch kind of approach, obviously just throwing uke rather than being thrown first is probably more tactically advantageous. But good to practice both to be aware of your sense of control (or lack of it:freaky: ), and in case you need it. It also shows the interchanging roles between uke and nage. In this case, the sacrifice is nage's willingness to take a fall with the goal of eventually throwing uke.

Others I think are refering to just the fall that uke takes, usually I think this is used for breakfalls or other falls that while uke may not want to take, the alternative would be worse (ie, sacrifice your balance, take the fall rather than get your wrist snapped).

wildaikido 04-27-2002 09:47 AM

This is a good example of an aikidoish sutemi waza
http://judoinfo.com/images/nauta/udegaesh.gif
It could be done from kote hineri. http://judoinfo.com/images/nauta/tomonage.gif
Here it is the most famous sutemi of them all, I think James Bond has used it a few time. :)
Just look around judoinfo for some other

guest1234 04-27-2002 10:00 AM

I think the second one was made even more famous by Capt. James T. Kirk:D

wildaikido 04-27-2002 10:11 AM

I AM A FOOL. How could i forget good old captain Kirk?
Just love that two hands clasped together strike, hehe :):):)

jimvance 04-27-2002 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ca
(hmm, would it be sutemi waza and sutemi ukemi?:confused: ). In the first, nage allows uke's attack to throw him and out of how he falls regains his balance while causing uke to lose his.
:cool: sutemi waza and sute ukemi. Only one "mi" per person, if you please. ;)

I have seen a guy in Aikikai style randori use tomoe nage over and over because he was "stuck" and could not think of anything else to do. (I guess he was lucky the uke were nice to him and let him stand up each time.) Maybe he just watched one too many episodes of Star Trek. He didn't attack with the "double axe handle" at all, so I think he was just stuck.

I don't think tori (nage) ever regains his balance in a classical sutemi waza. Regaining balance while causing uke to lose theirs would probably be considered "kaeshi waza", but I don't think you can really learn how to do that without the PRINCIPLE of sutemi. And the principle of sutemi is learned by ukemi. I thought that sutemi waza were throws that took advantage of tori's (who becomes uke) openings while uke (who becomes tori) was already ballistic. They were the some of the first kaeshi waza.

In other words, emphasis on sutemi as principle leads to a kind of hierarchy of ability:

1. Ukemi (Protecting the body while receiving force)
2. Sutemi waza (Receiving force while taking control of the initiative)
3. Kaeshi waza (Taking the initiative from someone who has it without receiving force)

This is not a linear hierarchy; don't know all the details, just the basic theory. And I am not its author, just one of its advocates.

Jim Vance

nikonl 04-27-2002 11:49 AM

very very sorry, but i still don't understand what is sutemi. What exactly is sutemi or sacrifice throw?(pls use newbie words to explain) :)

Sorry for my ignorance.

MaylandL 04-28-2002 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nikon
very very sorry, but i still don't understand what is sutemi. What exactly is sutemi or sacrifice throw?(pls use newbie words to explain) :)

Sorry for my ignorance.

Hello Leslie

There is a very interesting article on sutemi on Janet's website that might help clarify.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ninpobugei/sutemi.htm

I think colleen is correct in classifying the throws and falls aspect.

From a body mechanics perspective, if you are nage, you ukemi as part of the throw on uke. The examples posted by Graham Wild (aka Wild Aikido) are good ones but there are many other techniques.

My original intention for this thread was to get some ideas on the pros and cons of these types of techniques in terms of illustrating and training in blending, movement, harmonising with the attack. Also as a way to become more sensitive to the technique if you are Uke in performing ukemi from the technique. I wasnt really concerned about their combat effectiveness.

I've seen other aikido dojos use these techniques in their training and I've trained in them from time to time but my senseis dont emphasise these techniques. So I wondered whether it was generally practiced by aikidoka and if so, whether I was missing something important in my training.

Hope this clarifies.


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