AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   Training (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=15)
-   -   Knee Injury (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1756)

Doug Mathieu 04-15-2002 01:13 PM

Knee Injury
 
Hello

I want to ask if anyone has experience with exercises that can damage the knee. In particular are there certain exercises you don't do or show in warm ups and class.

I have been training for 11 years, am a Shodan and am 43 years old.

A couple weeks ago I experienced pain in my knee the day after a regular training session of about 1 1/2 hours. I have had this pain before but not for some time. Its the kind of pain which hurts if you lift your knee but you can walk with no effort.

The only thing I can think of that could have caused this were 2 things we did at warm up. Lunges and a hip rotation excersise where you rotate your hip, your arms follow and you bend your leg to touch the knee to the mat each time.

I had no pain when I left class and there was no time when I had a bad fall, etc.

I am interested if anyone may confirm the possible danger in these excersises and if they know of any others to watch out for. This is for myself and students as I assist with Instruction.

Don_Modesto 04-15-2002 02:21 PM

Re: Knee Injury
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Doug Mathieu I have been training for 11 years, am a Shodan and am 43 years old.[/b]
I'm 43, too. My knees started bothering me a while ago, too. The only acute injury I can recall was a wayward roundhouse kick torquing the joint wrong. I ignored it at the time (I was about 14).

I'd 1) talk to a doctor, 2) factor in age, 3) get myself a knee brace (Ace brand is what I use and it's quite good), 4) start taking glucosamine. (Consumer Reports did a study of brands and found that one of the cheapest, Walmart's of all brands!, also had the content of what was promised on the label (some had but 60% of the active ingredients).

I hope your doctor has good news for you.

MaylandL 04-15-2002 10:20 PM

I would concur with Mr Modesto's comments. You may also wish to consult a physiotherapist and ask them to suggest some small changes to your warm up routine to minimise any impact on your knees while still retaining the benefits of your warmup routine.

About 15 years ago I've had a series of hyperextension injuries to my left knee that resulted in some cartilage, tendon and ligament damage (some of which is permanent I think). There are days where the knee aches and there have been the very rare occasions where it has locked up. Sometimes I have to use a knee brace to train and sitting in sieza can be uncomfortable at times.

I think with careful and considered management (including medical advice) of the condition it should not pose a problem for your training.

I've been training in aikido for 9 years now and prior to that 4 years of jujitsu. Yes I do have some problems with my left knee but the precautions that I've taken havent put a crimp in my training. For the record I'm pushing 40 :)

All the best for your training.

Abasan 05-05-2002 12:06 AM

Related to this topic,

I've noticed a lot of singaporean yudanshas wear a kinda 'foamy/spongy' knee supports. Everyone of them swears by it that it will help prevent injuries to the knee allowing you to train peacefully into old age.

I'm 26, i've got a lot of years to go. I don't want to end up tearing my knees apart in one session and having to limp the next 40-60 years or so...

The question is, are this knee supports medically proven to prevent injuries to the knees cause by repetitive impact either from front rolls/standing up, breakfalls to the side/impact to knees and leg, knee bends in the warm up, prolonged periods of seiza and knee walking, suriwaza and hammi handachi techniques? The next question is, are they restrictive to performing techniques.

The reason I'm asking is that I'm now encountering a lot of injuries. I don't know why... maybe through over exertion, maybe of forceful nages employing bone breaking strength techniques... my wrist is like almost gone now that I'm thinking of using boxer wraps on them.

I hope you guys can help... maybe colleen's medical advise? I'm using wrist and ankle supports now but have as yet to use the knee supports because they feel too restrictive. But I will if i'm convinced they're life saving. Thanks.

Don_Modesto 05-07-2002 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Abasan
I've noticed a lot of singaporean yudanshas wear a kinda 'foamy/spongy' knee supports. Everyone of them swears by it that it will help prevent injuries to the knee allowing you to train peacefully into old age. (1)

I'm 26, i've got a lot of years to go. (2) I don't want to end up tearing my knees apart in one session and having to limp the next 40-60 years or so....

The next question is, are they restrictive to performing techniques.(3)

(1)Not having been prescient enough to do it myself, I wonder in lamenting hindsight if wearing them wouldn't be an excellent preventative. I didn't even consider them when I was a kid; now I can't avoid them. (2)I'd encourage you to wear them.

(3) At the Aiki Expo, we spent a lot of time in seiza listening to folk introduce their arts. This was, as you say, restrictive and ground the skin on the back of my knee into hamburger. During techniques, however, I have no problems at all.

warriorwoman 05-07-2002 05:51 PM

knee injury
 
Doug,
I tried to do the hip rotation exercise you described in your first post and I believe that when doing it, you may have extended your weight-bearing knee past your toes in doing it. This could very easily injure that knee. The knee should never extend past the toes, or it will put undue stress on the knee. I hope this might help out. Does this make sense?
janet dtantirojanarat
www.warriowoman.org

Doug Mathieu 05-15-2002 01:15 PM

knee injury
 
Hi Janet

Yes it makes sense, I think the knee extending past the toe is very likely a bad thing. I used to get more pain doing Kotegaeshi until I learned to be careful how my knee was positioned.

Maybe I wasn't careful enough in the exercise and had this happen.

lunges and the hip rotation exercise could easily have the knee go to far.

I think you make a good observation.

Thanks and thanks to the rest of you for your suggestions.

Abasan 05-16-2002 01:54 AM

Following up on the knee supports mentioned earlier. I've bought one for the right knee and have been using it for the past week or so. Its the adjustable type, so you can have it as tight/loose as you want.

Its a great invention really. Good support, no pain, just some discomfirt while in seiza.
I would recommend it to everyone who wants to keep their original knees in a decade or so.

Btw, does anyone here have toe injuries?

justinm 05-16-2002 07:20 AM

knees
 
Some standard advice I hear from sports coaches in the UK:

1. The knee should never extend past the toes, and should ideally be above the ankle.

2. Do not circle the knees - a common exercise in martial arts that puts unnatural strain on the joint.

3. Never lock out joints when doing body conditioning exercises

I go to a weekly class that specialises in lunges and squats. Here is when I am told - I hope it helps:

When doing lunges, you should aim to have 4x 90 degree corners, - front knee is directly above the ankle, front thigh is horizontal, back thigh is vertical, back knee close to the floor. Common errors are a stance that is too small, and moving the hips too far forward whch pushes the front knee out. The focus of the exercise is a vertical, not forward, hip movement. The hips should be balanced _between_ your feet, not over the front one.

Finally, work through your front heel, not toes, which stay light. You should be able to wiggle your front toes.

Do it in front of a mirror and look for those 90 degree angles, with your upper body vertical, balanced between your feet. This will give you maximum benefit from lunges, safely.

Chocolateuke 05-16-2002 08:43 PM

acually your knees are made to bend so you wanna keep them all nice and bendy just dont twist them. in Yoshinkan Aikido one of my Senseis Geordan Reynolds, 4th dan Yoshinkai ( same one who went to the Expo) said that he had 2 surguries for his legs but when he went to jappan all the japs ( who bend their knees all the way past the toes yoshinkan Stance makes you have your front knee go past your toes as well as have your back leg straight.) didnt have any knee problems at all. So he learned how to do the correct Stance ( the one i described) and all was well :). so bend your knees but dont twist them :)

warriorwoman 05-16-2002 09:49 PM

knee injury
 
You know, this knee thing is quite interesting. I'm sure lots of people have various problems with their knees and from different causes. When I trained in Taijichuan, our instructor was very adamant about doing knee rotations for fear of damaging the knee (as someone posted earlier), and of course not letting the knee extend past the toes, as we mentioned earlier, yet, I had some knee problems which did begin to concern me: the only way I could describe the sensation was that it felt that my tendons or ligaments or whatever were being stretched too much so that when I would walk around, my knee felt like it was too loose and caused a bit of pain. When I began training in Budo Taijutsu, I was shocked at first to see that our sensei encouraged us to rotated our knees (not strenuously, but lightly) in our warm up excercises. Again, care is taken not to extend the knee beyond the toe, but fortunately, I have found that not only has no further injury occurred, but the previous "loose" sensation totally disappeared within the first few weeks of training. I've been training in Budo Taijutsu for years now with no problem whatsoever with my knees and yes, I am "over 40". I can only assume that twisting the knees is not the same as rotating the knee - perhaps the difference being that the weight is not on the knee because it is bent and the rotations are small without straightening or locking the knee. In any case, if you can't afford a phsysiotherapist (who can, these days?) then perhaps you can ask your sensei to observe you as you do your technique. It's amazing what minute variances they can pick up by observing!
janet dtantirojanarat
www.warriorwoman.org

akiy 05-16-2002 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chocolateuke
but when he went to jappan all the japs
Just as an aside, you might want to remember that "Jap" can be taken very much as a derogatory term. I've had it hurled at me as an insult in my life, at least...

-- Jun

guest1234 05-16-2002 10:20 PM

Hi Janet,

I can think of a couple of explanations for your knee situation: first, if the exercise you are doing is the one I am thinking of, it is not really twisting the knee (which I would describe as taking hold of the foot and turning it clockwise or counterclockwise, without moving the upper leg), but more up and down, with some slight side to side motion (more movement is actually occuring at the hip joints, which are better designed for that sort of thing). And it is gentle, you're right about that. Another thing that may influence it is your age, or more accurately, your age when doing Tajichuan. If you were younger then, and especially depending on the movements (and so the muscles used, esp if they are held tightened for any amount of time), you could have been putting a lot of pull on a recently increased Q angle. Women, as their hips widen in puberty, increase (sometimes dramatically) the Q angle on their knees, which now are no longer aligned as in males and young girls/women. This is why teens/college female athletes have so much danger of knee injury (do I again hear kids class instructors thinking 'uh oh'). As we age we 1) get less athletic and 2) get more used to the new angles of stress being placed on our knees. But they will always be more prone to injury than a guy's because when they use their leg muscles it pulls in a straight line on the knee, and when we do it pulls at an angle.

Chuck Clark 05-17-2002 01:14 AM

Dallas,

I suspect from reading your posts since you joined this forum that you didn't mean anything derogatory by what you said...

However, I'm glad Jun called you on it because it really doesn't sound like you. I, for one, find that sort of label really offensive.

Please think about this very seriously.

Regards,

justinm 05-17-2002 03:31 AM

It is very rare, in my experience, for martial arts instructors to have much knowledge on correct warm up and stretching techniques. They usually do it the way they were taught, or have seen in other dojo, and this is passed on.

Professional sports trainers and physiotherapists change their approach as the knowledge base improves. I often hear coaches saying things like "we don't do it that way any more" due to new discoveries and scientific progress.

I might be taking a risk here, but I would say that martial arts instructors are probably some of the worst in this area, as they are very tied into tradition. The warm up and stretching part of the class is just to get ready for the 'real stuff', whereas for many sports professionals, this IS the real stuff and they try to follow current thinking on best practice.

Not many other physical activities resist change from traditional approaches to modern practices more than martial arts.

I would recommend to anyone that they spend sometime in a sports centre or gym, learning correct technique and take this into the dojo with you.

hibi shoshon 05-17-2002 03:59 AM

knee injury
 
Hello, my name is Laura and I'm 23. I've been practising aikido for two years now in Spain and currently my "meniscus" is injured so I can't practice for some months.

I injured my knee for the first time while skiing, then last year while I practised aikido in the Netherlands and now I don't know how I have broken my "meniscus".

I see there are lots of people with knee injuries because of martial arts and I wonder: is it just because we (the injured ones) don't practise the way it is? I mean, as the occidental culture is so different from the western one, the way we walk, the way we sit down... maybe I just don't understand quite good how to control the weight of my body, and I force my knees too much... I guess Japanese practicants do not have such injuries, or at least not so much as we do.

All the advices you people give here are so good, I think I'm starting wearing a knee band and just take it easy, practice carefully and learn slowly but doing it well.

PeterR 05-17-2002 04:13 AM

Re: knee injury
 
Quote:

Originally posted by hibi shoshon
I guess Japanese practicants do not have such injuries, or at least not so much as we do.
Don't fool yourself - all the members in my dojo that are forced to wear knee braces are Japanese. One claims it was the Judo that did him in, another claims it was the Karate but all four did Aikido for a long time and Shihan is down right anal when it comes to watching out for improper ukemi - I know that has to do with the knees.

Chocolateuke 05-17-2002 10:12 AM

that word
 
I just thought it was an abreviation for Japanness since at school that how our teacher keep say it when talking about peral harbor. Sorry Jun I really didnt know If i did then i wouldnt have said it. thx :)

Krzysiek 05-17-2002 11:44 AM

Quote:

I just thought it was an abreviation for Japanness since at school that how our teacher keep say it when talking about peral harbor. Sorry Jun I really didnt know If i did then i wouldnt have said it. thx
:confused:
Not to judge yet but... sounds like a teacher in need of education. Reminds me of a beatiful book called "Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your High School History Textbook Got Wrong" by James Loewen... the webpage of the author is: http://www.uvm.edu/~jloewen/ it tells you what the book is about.

--Krzysiek

deepsoup 05-17-2002 02:07 PM

Re: that word
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Chocolateuke
I just thought it was an abreviation for Japanness since at school that how our teacher keep say it when talking about peral harbor. Sorry Jun I really didnt know If i did then i wouldnt have said it. thx :)
I'm sure you'll be forgiven for your honest mistake, Dallas.

If it makes you feel better, heres a story about President George W Bush comitting a similar gaffe (but worse) earlier this year. (Unlike you, though, the President wasn't big enough to apologise afterwards.)

Sean
x

ps: Your teacher sounds like a jerk! :rolleyes:

akiy 05-17-2002 02:25 PM

Re: that word
 
Hi Dallas,

Quote:

Originally posted by Chocolateuke
I just thought it was an abreviation for Japanness since at school that how our teacher keep say it when talking about peral harbor. Sorry Jun I really didnt know If i did then i wouldnt have said it. thx :)
Apology accepted, of course. I pretty much knew you weren't using it knowing it could be taken quite derogatorily. I hope, someday, your teacher will get the same message as well.

As far as knees and such go, my only knee injury that I've had so far has been from an improper breakfall where I didn't keep enough "tension" through my off-the-ground leg when I landed, causing my foot and calf to get jarred. If I remember correctly, I was off the mat for about a month after that (which was good, I think, since I was still healing from an elbow injury incurred two months before the knee injury).

-- Jun

SeiserL 05-18-2002 08:51 PM

IMHO, proper orthopedic diagnosis is very important for proper treatment. Check out the physical therapy sites for the knee stabilization exercises. Make sure the toes, ankles, knees, and hips stay aligned and not over extended beyond the toes. Warm up slowly. Wear knee warmers.

At 51, I have bad knees and have the train wisely. But, I still train regularly and hard.

Until again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD

guest1234 05-18-2002 10:01 PM

Hey Dallas, in less than a month a lesson in British swearing and American racial slurs... and who says the youth of today don't listen to their elders...

Hopefully this is a reminder to all us 'elderly' that the words we use can poison young minds... and a warning to young minds not to believe blindly everything we say...

Laura, skiing often gets the meniscus the same way football (uh, American football) does, a planted foot (held that way by a ski) while the upper body turns. I actually tore mine doing overly aggressive warm-ups before crew practice, but finished it off later that year skiing.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:55 PM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.