AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   Techniques (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4)
-   -   Ikkyo (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17322)

Aikidonewbie 12-13-2009 08:42 AM

Ikkyo
 
I have a problem when I apply Ikkyo. I am 6'2 so, for instance once I have grabbed my opponent's arm and turned my hips into the motion, my opponent is bent pretty far down, and I am still in a standing position and unable to exert any real force on their arm, I found that I have to lean over to get closer to the arm. So usually this results in a clumsy motion with Uke having to pretend and assist me. Anybody ahve any tips for this problem? I am a beginner by the way...

raul rodrigo 12-13-2009 08:57 AM

Re: Ikkyo
 
Why do you need to get closer to the arm? You're holding it.

Shadowfax 12-13-2009 09:05 AM

Re: Ikkyo
 
Bend your knees....You don't need a whole lot of force as long as you have Ukes balance.

ChrisHein 12-13-2009 10:09 AM

Re: Ikkyo
 
Quote:

Cherie Cornmesser wrote: (Post 247623)
Bend your knees....You don't need a whole lot of force as long as you have Ukes balance.

I agree with this comment. Once your weight is over uke, unless uke is shifting his weight backward (not proper ukemi for ikkyo) you should be able to simply bend your knees and bring him down.

If you are having a problem with this still, because you don't quite have uke when you are at the rest position (standing with uke controlled in ikkyo in front of you) then you can step at an angle to uke's body; through the armpit of the arm you are applying ikkyo to. This will bring most down, if they are taking the proper ukemi for ikkyo.

Aikidonewbie 12-13-2009 11:24 AM

Re: Ikkyo
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 247625)
I agree with this comment. Once your weight is over uke, unless uke is shifting his weight backward (not proper ukemi for ikkyo) you should be able to simply bend your knees and bring him down.

If you are having a problem with this still, because you don't quite have uke when you are at the rest position (standing with uke controlled in ikkyo in front of you) then you can step at an angle to uke's body; through the armpit of the arm you are applying ikkyo to. This will bring most down, if they are taking the proper ukemi for ikkyo.

The problem I have with bending at the knees (and this is true with other aikido movements as well) as that I can't move forward very well when my knees are bent. I do like the idea of giving Uke a bump at an angle to help get the Uke down.

Shadowfax 12-13-2009 11:40 AM

Re: Ikkyo
 
I had and still have that issue too. Trust me you can move forward with your knees bent. You just have to teach your body to do it. It will come all in good time. Be patient and just try not to get in your own way mentally.

Bending my knees and lowering my center is a major issue for me. But one day it occurred to me that I was making excuses and telling myself I can't do it and getting in my own way. I still do it sometimes but less often now. I will make the excuse to sensei that I just can't do what he is showing me. He is so patient. Just smiles and says you need to lower your center and he shows me again...

When I stop saying I cant and start saying I'll try... I tend to discover I can do a lot of things that I really believed were not possible.

Kevin Leavitt 12-13-2009 11:50 AM

Re: Ikkyo
 
I am 6 2 as well. I can't tell you how to do this correctly on aikiweb. Yea you have to bend your knees, but there is a little more to it than this as well.

Grabbling the arm. Probably a big clue as to part of the problem. Grabbing the arm means most likely that you are engaging the arm upon contract before you have established connection and kuzushi.

Grabbing the arm can trigger a proprioceptive response from uke, so if you extend, grab the arm, then bend your knees...well uke will feel the grab, then begin to disengage, bend his knees in order to get lower than you. So most likely he will always be slightly ahead of whatever knee bending you are going to do...thus you will never beat uke to get underneath his center.

Play around with ikkyo some with different things happening at different times.

I personally don't like to grab the arm at all, but to recieve, enter first....uke should not get feedback from the contact and thus he should not have a reason proprioceptively to consolidate and pullback, and bend his knees. Then you can try to "get under" his center, kuzushi established, and uke then needs to find a response to get center back...but it is too late and he is "behind" your action with his...and now you are ahead of his action loop.

Again, I can't coach over aikiweb...but maybe this mental picture might help?

This was a big part of my problem being a big guy and stopping the early grabbing was a huge help for me.

Michael Hackett 12-13-2009 01:35 PM

Re: Ikkyo
 
My biggest failure and challenge with ikkyo omote is to keep the extension of my arms. Like many, I have tended to push down on the upper arm while pulling up on the lower arm. If I simply extend both of my arms fully and move forward from my center, Uke remains unbalanced and goes right down.

I have friends from another school who routinely perform the "bump" into the armpit and slide back out. That works pretty well until Uke decides to use that movement to reverse Nage and "sweep" the legs into a takedown.

Maarten De Queecker 12-13-2009 01:49 PM

Re: Ikkyo
 
Ikkyo is by far the most difficult technique to do correctly, and by far the easiest to escape out of.

mickeygelum 12-13-2009 04:38 PM

Re: Ikkyo
 
Quote:

Ikkyo is by far the most difficult technique to do correctly, and by far the easiest to escape out of.
Mr Queecker,

Would you please elaborate on your statement?

Mickey

eyrie 12-13-2009 04:53 PM

Re: Ikkyo
 
Quote:

Daniel Davis wrote: (Post 247621)
I have a problem when I apply Ikkyo. I am 6'2 so, for instance once I have grabbed my opponent's arm and turned my hips into the motion, my opponent is bent pretty far down, and I am still in a standing position and unable to exert any real force on their arm, I found that I have to lean over to get closer to the arm. So usually this results in a clumsy motion with Uke having to pretend and assist me. Anybody ahve any tips for this problem? I am a beginner by the way...

I think this largely depends on how tall your partner is in relation to your 6'2". It would be difficult to diagnose what problems you may be experiencing without seeing how you do this, or to be able to offer any real advice without hands on interaction. Ordinarily, the usual problem is applying ikkyo to a taller person, not the obverse.

BTW, you don't necessarily have to bend your knees to drop your weight or apply force.... but it's hard to explain without doing so in person.

raul rodrigo 12-13-2009 05:15 PM

Re: Ikkyo
 
Quote:

Michael Hackett wrote: (Post 247637)
I have friends from another school who routinely perform the "bump" into the armpit and slide back out. That works pretty well until Uke decides to use that movement to reverse Nage and "sweep" the legs into a takedown.

Yes, the bump into the armpit also doesn't work too well in my dojo, where many yudansha have judo training, so stepping in that close before you have control of uke creates an opening for a throw. Tani otoshi or sukui nage are the most common responses we get.

Shadowfax 12-13-2009 09:00 PM

Re: Ikkyo
 
After tonight's class Kevin's post makes a ton of sense. We worked on Ikkyo all night. Got lucky and wound up with a semi private class so we really got to explore it.

I tried not grabbing. In fact not raising my arms at all for the Shomenuchi and Yokomenuch attacks until Uke had fully extend himself in his attack. Ikkyo worked much much better than it ever has for me. Also really concentrate on finding that spiral through Ukes body rather then concentrating on the linear direction you eventually want him to go in....

Lots of food for thought and this thread was on my mind as we trained.

ChrisHein 12-13-2009 10:39 PM

Re: Ikkyo
 
Quote:

Raul Rodrigo wrote: (Post 247649)
Yes, the bump into the armpit also doesn't work too well in my dojo, where many yudansha have judo training, so stepping in that close before you have control of uke creates an opening for a throw. Tani otoshi or sukui nage are the most common responses we get.

If you push down as you "bump", their attempt to throw ends with them face planting themselves into the mat.

However if you don't first have uke's balance before doing this it won't work. Keeping your inside leg back, and stepping forward until uke loses his balance is key. If you have pushed uke forward until he can't keep his legs under him he will go down easily. Any attempts to throw from this position on the part of uke will end badly for him.

raul rodrigo 12-13-2009 11:11 PM

Re: Ikkyo
 
Yes, Chris, that's why I had the caveat "before you have control of uke."

raul rodrigo 12-14-2009 12:18 AM

Re: Ikkyo
 
An example of ikkyo without the bump or tori trying to put his weight over uke in any obvious way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkA8u...eature=channel

Down power is being transmitted through the arms, but it's a subtle thing.

Maarten De Queecker 12-14-2009 04:01 AM

Re: Ikkyo
 
Quote:

Michael Gelum wrote: (Post 247646)
Mr Queecker,

Would you please elaborate on your statement?

Mickey

Please, call me by my first name, I start feeling old when people call me sir or mister :D

Anyway, in my experience, it is not really that difficult for an (strong) uke to resist an ikkyo by sheer force ("I'm not going to bend my elbow or go down"), or just roll out of it the moment it is applied, so when you apply it, it has to be near perfect. Now, achieving this near perfection is easy on a flexible uke who attacks relaxedly (is this a word?) with e.g. shomenuchi, but when you have an uke who comes at you full strenght and speed, you must be really good and fast if you want to a) take uke's centre and not get pushed into the mat and b) keep control of uke. In kaeshi-waza, ikkyo is the easiest to take over.

Most instructors/yudansha I speak with agree that ikkyo is one of the hardest techniques to do if you have an uke who is hellbent on getting out of it.

Abasan 12-14-2009 05:40 AM

Re: Ikkyo
 
Quote:

Raul Rodrigo wrote: (Post 247676)
An example of ikkyo without the bump or tori trying to put his weight over uke in any obvious way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkA8u...eature=channel

Down power is being transmitted through the arms, but it's a subtle thing.

Right.... he's a beginner and you want him to emulate Endo.

Stick to kihon. Hold a bokken and see how ikkyo is done slowly, blade always cutting uke. You'll learn to move softly with the blade just as you should do it empty handed. But if you start to push and pull, where is your blade?

Carsten Möllering 12-14-2009 07:09 AM

Re: Ikkyo
 
Quote:

Ahmad Abas wrote: (Post 247684)
Stick to kihon.

Well it is.

Greetings,
Carsten

raul rodrigo 12-14-2009 07:15 AM

Re: Ikkyo
 
Carsten beat me to linking to the Kihon no Kata video clip. I had the same idea. And I mention Endo not to answer the OP directly, but to address the idea of the bump cited a few posts earlier.

Kevin Leavitt 12-14-2009 08:05 AM

Re: Ikkyo
 
ar resistive ikkyo is a gift from heaven. that gift is called a hip throw, which is far more exciting than the ikkyo.

dps 12-14-2009 10:33 AM

Re: Ikkyo
 
For a beginner I would recommend that in Shomenuchi Ikkyo, as uke raises his arm upward to strike, raise your arms upward at the same time. You use uke's upward momentum to help unbalance him.

If his striking arm is coming down, do Iriminage.

David

ninjaqutie 12-14-2009 10:44 AM

Re: Ikkyo
 
You should not bend over. My sensei always reminds us that we should be like puppets and have our heads suspended from a string from the ceiling. If anything, bending your knees or sinking into your hips should be enough to keep him down.

As far as what David said above me, I agree. My sensei always tells us to imagine both our fingers are linked via a string. When he lifts his arm up to attack, my arm should go up too to catch under the elbow. The reason he tells us to imagine the string is tied at the fingers is to remind us to lead with our fingers. :)

Janet Rosen 12-14-2009 10:55 AM

Re: Ikkyo
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 247691)
ar resistive ikkyo is a gift from heaven. that gift is called a hip throw, which is far more exciting than the ikkyo.

:)

dps 12-14-2009 12:20 PM

Re: Ikkyo
 
Quote:

Ashley Carter wrote: (Post 247710)
As far as what David said above me, I agree. My sensei always tells us to imagine both our fingers are linked via a string. When he lifts his arm up to attack, my arm should go up too to catch under the elbow.

That is the Harmony (Ai) in Aikido.

David


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:34 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.