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-   -   Does Atemi have to work (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17173)

RED 11-16-2009 09:49 PM

Does Atemi have to work
 
My opinion: NO!

Atemi waza in my opinion is about off balancing. Every technique has an implied atemi, but it does not necessarily have to hurt, or even make contact. It is about distracting, or taking balance. The goal of Nage in my opinion is to take balance.
However if contact or pain is what is needed, than that is what is needed. If the threat is off balancing than that is what is needed.

My back up source:

http://www.aikidoacademy.org/index.p...mid=55&lang=en

chillzATL 11-16-2009 10:15 PM

Re: Does Atemi have to work
 
Quote:

Maggie Schill wrote: (Post 245707)
My opinion: NO!

Atemi waza in my opinion is about off balancing. Every technique has an implied atemi, but it does not necessarily have to hurt, or even make contact. It is about distracting, or taking balance. The goal of Nage in my opinion is to take balance.
However if contact or pain is what is needed, than that is what is needed. If the threat is off balancing than that is what is needed.

My back up source:

http://www.aikidoacademy.org/index.p...mid=55&lang=en

I agree that a sharp kiai or a feint to the face can certainly be enough in the right situation, but you should always train atemi with the intent to hit and hit hard. It's similar to the difference in a karateka training to tap the pads or training to punch 6 inches behind them. One is certainly going to be more effective in a real situation simply because of how he has conditioned himself to use his strikes.

dps 11-17-2009 12:14 AM

Re: Does Atemi have to work
 
If your atemi does not work, then there is no reason to use it.

David

ChrisHein 11-17-2009 01:26 AM

Re: Does Atemi have to work
 
Again we face the ambiguity of "work".

If I were facing someone who means to do me harm. If escaping and avoiding are not an option, knocking him out quickly is the best thing for both of us (as I will find him assistance while he is asleep).

If atemi does this, then it worked, but that doesn't mean it's the only thing it can work at. If he just lets me go, or runs away, my atemi worked. If he falls down, or gets discouraged my atemi worked. If he is unbalanced and this enables me to throw him, then my atemi worked.

Effective atemi does all of these things, that is why it's in the forms. You should learn to throw fast powerful strikes. You should also learn to deliver your atemi with various common weapons. once you can deliver effective atemi you can use it as you see fit.

philipsmith 11-17-2009 03:17 AM

Re: Does Atemi have to work
 
I agree with both Jason and David.

Ukeme is not only to distract and/or unbalnce uke but also to establish a connection between tori and uke and can be considered as the first stage of ukeme

How uke responds to atemi may well determine the eventual shape of the technique; or even which technique is applied..

Shadowfax 11-17-2009 07:40 AM

Re: Does Atemi have to work
 
If the intent is not there... if the Atemi is not real... then uke can and very possibly will ignore it as a non threat and it will either loose effectiveness or become completely ineffective.

Sensei has sometimes demonstrated the difference in reaction of Uke when there is real intent and when there is not. I've felt it myself. Real atemi gets better results and is a better teacher.

Bob Blackburn 11-17-2009 08:34 AM

Re: Does Atemi have to work
 
Atemi has to work or there is no threat. The results may vary. I.e. take balance or make contact. The more experience you have, the less you will react to ineffective atemi. There is no reason to.

Kevin Leavitt 11-17-2009 08:36 AM

Re: Does Atemi have to work
 
Quote:

Cherie Cornmesser wrote: (Post 245727)
If the intent is not there... if the Atemi is not real... then uke can and very possibly will ignore it as a non threat and it will either loose effectiveness or become completely ineffective.

Sensei has sometimes demonstrated the difference in reaction of Uke when there is real intent and when there is not. I've felt it myself. Real atemi gets better results and is a better teacher.

Or he could ignore it all together regardless of you intent. He may not care about your intent what-so-ever for a number of reasons. So what do you do then?

Kevin Leavitt 11-17-2009 08:38 AM

Re: Does Atemi have to work
 
Cherie....Forget my last post....I see where you are driving with this...solely focused on the atemi aspect, not the situation as a whole. I agree.

tim evans 11-17-2009 12:04 PM

Re: Does Atemi have to work
 
I believe atemi,s need to be thrown from the start of your aikido training for training purposes we don,t throw them hard for the obvious reasons but uke,s should be able to block nage,s atemis but if your intent is not there your opponnent or adversary may continue his pursuit I say show your intent to knock there head off :D if your confronted outside the dojo by violent people.:)

Lyle Laizure 11-17-2009 12:17 PM

Re: Does Atemi have to work
 
My two cents...

There are three atemi. The first is an end all atemi, knocking the person out and ending the threat. The second is a complimentary atemi, one that works in conjunction with a technique. The third is a combination of one and two. I don't want to hit the individual but I will if I have to. I throw the atemi with the same intent as the first, hoping my attacker will have the sense to respond to it so I don't actually have to connect, thus breaking the attacker's intended focus. If the attacker doesn't respond to the atemi as it moves toward its target then the attacker will certainly have to respond when my atemi reaches its destination.

Atemi are supposed to be used to allow you to take the mind of your attacker, so that you can hopefully offer a peacefully end to the situation. Sometimes this means hurting someone, sometimes though I find the best atemi is a kiss. Whatever takes the mind of my attacker is my atemi.

lbb 11-17-2009 12:30 PM

Re: Does Atemi have to work
 
Quote:

Lyle Laizure wrote: (Post 245749)
The second is a complimentary atemi

"Hey, I really like your shoes!"

"Oh, hey, thanks, I--"

*WHACK*

:p

Shadowfax 11-17-2009 12:40 PM

Re: Does Atemi have to work
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 245734)
Or he could ignore it all together regardless of you intent. He may not care about your intent what-so-ever for a number of reasons. So what do you do then?

lol change techniques. :p

You are right I was speaking of atemi itself not any particular real life type situation. In that situation I darn well either better be very convincing or very fast... don't you agree?

RED 11-17-2009 12:40 PM

Re: Does Atemi have to work
 
Quote:

Lyle Laizure wrote: (Post 245749)
My two cents...

Atemi are supposed to be used to allow you to take the mind of your attacker, so that you can hopefully offer a peacefully end to the situation. .

I like this concept. Thanks.

Lyle Laizure 11-17-2009 02:06 PM

Re: Does Atemi have to work
 
Quote:

Mary Malmros wrote: (Post 245750)
"Hey, I really like your shoes!"

"Oh, hey, thanks, I--"

*WHACK*

:p

Mary, I hadn't quite thought of it in that way, but I can't wait to try it at our next practice. LOL

Kevin Leavitt 11-17-2009 02:29 PM

Re: Does Atemi have to work
 
Quote:

Lyle Laizure wrote: (Post 245749)
My two cents...

There are three atemi. The first is an end all atemi, knocking the person out and ending the threat. The second is a complimentary atemi, one that works in conjunction with a technique. The third is a combination of one and two. I don't want to hit the individual but I will if I have to. I throw the atemi with the same intent as the first, hoping my attacker will have the sense to respond to it so I don't actually have to connect, thus breaking the attacker's intended focus. If the attacker doesn't respond to the atemi as it moves toward its target then the attacker will certainly have to respond when my atemi reaches its destination.

Atemi are supposed to be used to allow you to take the mind of your attacker, so that you can hopefully offer a peacefully end to the situation. Sometimes this means hurting someone, sometimes though I find the best atemi is a kiss. Whatever takes the mind of my attacker is my atemi.

Lyle, hey nice thoughts. I like this concept, haven't really thought about it this way, but yea I think so!

So you can take the mind of your opponent either literally or figuratively/mentally!

And I certainly don't discount Mary's tactic as well. I think the concept of taking the mind to be very important to training!

lbb 11-17-2009 03:57 PM

Re: Does Atemi have to work
 
Quote:

Lyle Laizure wrote: (Post 245756)
Mary, I hadn't quite thought of it in that way, but I can't wait to try it at our next practice. LOL

As long as they're spelling "complimentary" with an i, I don't know why you shouldn't!

eyrie 11-17-2009 05:19 PM

Re: Does Atemi have to work
 
Let's not confuse metsubushi (eye closers) which are distraction devices, and kuzushi, with atemi.

There's only one kind of atemi - the kind that works. ;)

Lyle Laizure 11-17-2009 08:15 PM

Re: Does Atemi have to work
 
Quote:

Ignatius Teo wrote: (Post 245778)
Let's not confuse metsubushi (eye closers) which are distraction devices, and kuzushi, with atemi.

There's only one kind of atemi - the kind that works. ;)

They are all the same, provided they work. I see things very simplistic and not to often do I find someone to agree with me. LOL

gdandscompserv 11-17-2009 08:37 PM

Re: Does Atemi have to work
 
Actually, nothing HAS to work.:D

eyrie 11-18-2009 12:56 AM

Re: Does Atemi have to work
 
Quote:

Lyle Laizure wrote: (Post 245786)
They are all the same, provided they work. I see things very simplistic and not to often do I find someone to agree with me. LOL

Well, they are not the same thing. That atemi can aid in achieving the result (whatever that may be), or that it can make "it" (what "it" is) work, is not the same as saying atemi makes it work, and is therefore the same thing as XYZ. Coz it simply is not. :)

dps 11-18-2009 06:24 AM

Re: Does Atemi have to work
 
Quote:

Lyle Laizure wrote: (Post 245786)
They are all the same, provided they work. I see things very simplistic and not to often do I find someone to agree with me. LOL

Atemi is a strike using any part of your body to strike any part of your opponents body. If the opponent moves good, if the opponent does not move fine he/she gets hit.

A fist in the eye is a good eye closer.

I agree keep it simple. Getting to complicated with definitions is a distraction of its own.



David

dps 11-18-2009 06:31 AM

Re: Does Atemi have to work
 
Quote:

Ricky Wood wrote: (Post 245790)
Actually, nothing HAS to work.:D

I try to do as little work as possible. :D

david

jxa127 11-18-2009 08:43 AM

Re: Does Atemi have to work
 
Ellis Amdur has written some great essays on atemi and its use in aikido. This one on irimi from Aikido Journal touches on atemi: http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=686

But if you'd like to read more about Ellis's approach to atemi, get his book, Dueling with O Sensei. I can't recommend it more highly.

Regards,

Aikibu 11-18-2009 09:56 AM

Re: Does Atemi have to work
 
There is no Aikido without Atemi...Hows that for simple? :)

William Hazen


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