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-   -   Combat efficiency? "Fantastic"! (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1707)

Unregistered 04-04-2002 02:23 PM

Combat efficiency? "Fantastic"!
 
As a guest surfing on these forums... every thread about combat efficiency of Aikido seems to go down to 2 principles: maai and irimi.

But there ARE no use in true combat. Doesn't it seem like a bit of fake reality? Why? Try this:

If we stand at correct maai a reasonable fighter won't give any commited attacks but tries to sneak up with fake strikes and little steps. And in real life in one moment there may be nowhere to back up to!
When we try to IRIMI from the correct maai we cannot move our body ahead without the opponent noticing and just slightly turning his body and landing a strike on us because he has so much time to react to our irimi.

When we are potentially close for a successful irimi... (when the opponent has made the distance short or we have helped him) then it is too close to be the correct maai and we won't be able to react to the commited attacks.

And we are not in the world anymore where armout-clad soldiers RAN towards eachother on the battlefield.

Aikido provides fantastic solutions to fantastic situations! True or not?

Okay, there are lot's of you out there who will go that "this is not the purpose of Aikido" and blah blah... Maybe then we should stop calling it a MARTIAL art and equalize it with other way's of life and gymnastics as YOGA for example. Grrr...

A lot of people call Aikido a self-defence system... What use is a self defence system in which you aren't (as it seems from some posts) effeciantly able to defend yourself after 5 or even more years of practice? (if not relying on some skills which are earned crosstraining but not Aikido) Grrr...

All the replies welcome... if there will be any reasonable ones... just give it a thought - I know it's hard to doubt in somthing that some of you have done for very long BUT think real...

K.

Lyle Bogin 04-04-2002 02:53 PM

You, sir, are a troll.

Good luck in your studies.

Jim ashby 04-05-2002 02:25 AM

Combat Effectiveness
 
Interesting thread. I don't beleve in the "it all boils down to Maiai".....Etc Etc. I know that Aikido IS combat effective, if necessary you can fight in a phone box, you don't need wide open spaces. Last night we spent the whole class doing short stripped-down techniques, blisteringly effective and great fun to boot. I feel this one will run and run.
Have fun.

Bruce Baker 04-09-2002 10:00 AM

Blurred lines
 
The longer I do Aikido, go to seminars, and visit other dojo's, the more blurred the exact lines between Martial arts become.

I see big circles being turned into small circles, judo/jujitsu/ karate being added to attacks or introduced as advanced techniques, and I meet more and more people who are adding other MA's to their Aikido?

Let's see.. I have that quote here somewhere.

Interview with O'Sensei and Kisshomaru Ueshiba, and it says quote," ... there is aiki in judo, too, since in judo you synchonize yourself with the rhythm of your opponent. If he pulls, you push, if he pushes, you pull. You move him according to this principle and make him lose his balance and then you apply your technique." ( More toward the grappling art I would say.)

It continues with, " In Aikido, there is absolutely no attack. To attack means that the spirit has already lost/ We adhere to the principle of absolute non-resistence, that is to say, we do not oppose the attacker. Thus there is no opponent in Aikido."

Of course this is the self being able to draw upon the clarity of mind, and spirit of power within the universe beyond physical strength.

If that is found within other means, such as greater force causing the conflict to cease, then that will be the way. But if you are getting into a spitting contest of Aikido people fighting for the bragging rights as the baddest MA in the land, it ain't gonna happen if you are doing Aikido.

O'Sensei quote:"The ultimate goal of aiki is the creation of heaven on earth. In any case, the entire world must be in harmony. Then we do not have a need for atomic and hydrogen bombs. It can be a comfortable and pleasant world."

It is a pity that our later generations still seek to prove their prowess and not secure the peace through strength and knowledge.

I see it as my turn to stand up and say," Hey, leave the kid alone." like some people did for me when I was a kid. It is just easier when you have the tools to stand up to bullys than try to bluff without them. Aikido is one tool.

giriasis 04-09-2002 04:07 PM

Combat effectiveness
 
I leave combat effectiveness to the military. If you want combat, join the Army, Airforce, Navy or Marines. Combat is not self-defense, and legally we are not always permitted to respond to attackers with lethal techniques as one does in combat.

Your comments about irimi and maai only reflect ignorance of aikido and indicate that you just want to ruffle our feathers.

Erik 04-12-2002 02:09 AM

Hey unregistered, you do come off as a troll without a name and it is forum rules. Anyways, as a critic, I'm happy to address these questions as best I can and assume you are not a troll.

As a guest surfing on these forums... every thread about combat efficiency of Aikido seems to go down to 2 principles: maai and irimi.

What arts don't come down to maai? I can't think of any that don't have irimi either.

If we stand at correct maai a reasonable fighter won't give any commited attacks but tries to sneak up with fake strikes and little steps. And in real life in one moment there may be nowhere to back up to!

Well, ideally, correct maai (more on that later) in the context of this statement is right at the edge (boxers hang out here or pretty close to here as well). Just enough to tempt but not enough to get us in too much trouble. It's a very delicate place and by itself very hard to rely on. It's why there are a lot of other concepts such as controlling centerline or center, "before the beginning" and atemi to pick a small handful. Most of those are also useful in close.

When we try to IRIMI from the correct maai we cannot move our body ahead without the opponent noticing and just slightly turning his body and landing a strike on us because he has so much time to react to our irimi.

Again, by itself I would agree. I've been watching a lot of boxing lately and I'm convinced that many of those guys could hit me 13 times before I even began to close on them, and getting to their backside...good luck. However, bring in a bunch of other facets and it's got a chance. It's not so simple as just closing on the winds of the universe, hopefully, no one does that. You close when you've shifted the dynamic to a position where you can close. If you can't close, you do something else. If the attacker closed you do something else again. There are a lot more options besides keeping an exact distance and closing on an overcomitted attack although we often practice that way.

When we are potentially close for a successful irimi... (when the opponent has made the distance short or we have helped him) then it is too close to be the correct maai and we won't be able to react to the commited attacks.

If I've closed right I have a huge edge. Maai is not static and merely represents ideal spacing. For instance, a kicker is probably going to be much less dangerous in close where many of his kicks won't execute (as opposed to a grappler who might eat my lunch in close), so my ideal maai might be close, distant or even in the middle. Also, if I've closed right, I've also taken balance or I'm in a position to take it. Maai, is I think, often misrepresented even when it's accurately stated. Yes, there is spacing in the hope an attacker will overcommit but there's also an element of shifting maai. Maai is not a static thing as your post implies, nor is Aikido solely blending with an overcommitted attack. It just seems like that and it is kind of that in both a good and bad way.

Aikido provides fantastic solutions to fantastic situations! True or not?

I think that's somewhat true. For instance, taking away swords and knives qualifies as both. Folks who play with real blades are doubly exaggerating that one. I also think a lot of the techniques and training methods imply a certain type of result and combat (one attack one throw) which suggests perfect resolution to a fairly static attack. In anything approaching free form it almost never works that way, at least for me. I think we also make many other assumptions as well but realistically all arts do that. The question for me is do I attempt to address those assumptions and just how much of an assumption are they?

Okay, there are lot's of you out there who will go that "this is not the purpose of Aikido" and blah blah... Maybe then we should stop calling it a MARTIAL art and equalize it with other way's of life and gymnastics as YOGA for example. Grrr...

I know some who have done pretty much this. Believe it or not, I've found more value in those places than anywhere else. I will also admit that I find those places lacking in their way as well but it would really suck to see them go away. There's a lot of sincere, good and really valuable work done in that realm.

What use is a self defence system in which you aren't (as it seems from some posts) effeciantly able to defend yourself after 5 or even more years of practice? (if not relying on some skills which are earned crosstraining but not Aikido) Grrr...

I think this is an incredibly valid question for those who see effectiveness as a part of their practice and while we might not easily admit it, that is probably all of us.

I know it's hard to doubt in somthing that some of you have done for very long BUT think real...

I had huge doubts the first time I saw it and I've doubted it ever since. I'm still here though.

By the way, Chuck, if you are reading this, I really like how you used the bold and decided to steal it.


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