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-   -   Question about Aikikai kata and Yoshinkan bukiwaza (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16936)

Adam Huss 10-05-2009 08:18 PM

Question about Aikikai kata and Yoshinkan bukiwaza
 
Fellow aikidoka, two quick questions;

Students of Aikikai
-I know the answer for the aikiakai branch of my organization my organization, but do other groups have a particular name for the two common jo kata (we call them jo kata 1 and jo kata 2). These are the kata where:
Jo kata 1 involves a rearward checkt high thrust on step 13 (depending on how you count) and maybe step 17 (katahizatsuki, (one knee) down rear thrust).
Jo kata 2 involves the spinning 'room clearing' strike toward the end.

Students of Yoshinkan
-How much do you train in bukiwaza? The Yoshinkan side of my group trains heavily in weapons. In fact (not counting iaido) we have a separate class called Aikibuki which modifies bukiwaza to Yoshinkan stances and basic training principles (shu chu ryoku, shi sei o tada shitei, kamae/hitomei stances, etc). Just wondering if this is practiced with other Yoshinkan groups?

Thanks all for satisfying my curiosity.
~Adam

Janet Rosen 10-05-2009 11:22 PM

Re: Question about Aikikai kata and Yoshinkan bukiwaza
 
Quote:

Adam Huss wrote: (Post 242252)
Jo kata 1 involves a rearward checkt high thrust on step 13 (depending on how you count) and maybe step 17 (katahizatsuki, (one knee) down rear thrust).
Thanks all for satisfying my curiosity.
~Adam

I never saw this at a USAF dojo but where I train now, Ki Society lineage, this is a 22 count jo kata called "jo 1"; we also do it on the right side....

Michael Hackett 10-06-2009 02:27 AM

Re: Question about Aikikai kata and Yoshinkan bukiwaza
 
We are an AAA dojo and the two kata are called "22A" and "22B".

Adam Huss 10-06-2009 03:53 PM

Re: Question about Aikikai kata and Yoshinkan bukiwaza
 
Quote:

Michael Hackett wrote: (Post 242279)
We are an AAA dojo and the two kata are called "22A" and "22B".

Thank you Mr. Hackett. Our lineage is derivative of AAA, albeit a while back...so I am sure we are talking about the same kata. Do you still do bokken tandoku kata Happo Giri and Kiri Kaeishi? Do you have specific names for the Suburi? We just use the nomenclature Shomenuchi Suburi 1-6, Yokomenuchi Suburi 1-4, etc...

Cheers,
Adam

Adam Huss 10-06-2009 03:58 PM

Re: Question about Aikikai kata and Yoshinkan bukiwaza
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 242266)
I never saw this at a USAF dojo but where I train now, Ki Society lineage, this is a 22 count jo kata called "jo 1"; we also do it on the right side....

This would make sense as the AAA lineage traces its roots to Shin Shin Toitsu through the late Toyoda Fumio (Tenzan) Sensei. Likely our kata are practiced in a similar fashion, but I am sure there are differences.
cheers,
~A

Michael Hackett 10-06-2009 06:14 PM

Re: Question about Aikikai kata and Yoshinkan bukiwaza
 
Hi Adam,

I'm guessing that you might be affiliated with the AWA now. Again in our dojo we have the two bokken kata, remarkably called Bokken Kata 1 and Bokken Kata 2 - amazing nomenclature. BK1 is essentially a happo giri kata. As for the saburi, we simply call them by the basic strike, shomenuchi and so forth. We perform three in shomenuchi, four in yokomenuchi (including one gyaku yokomenuchi) and two in munetsuki. We also do Bokken Tai Sabaki and those numbers seem to equate to what you mentioned with Shomenuchi 1-4, Yokomenuchi 1-6, etc. Overall it sounds like you would be at home with us.

Normally in weapons classes, we will warm-up with saburi practice and then do weapons techniques or kata, depending on who is there on the mat. We might do bokken dori, jo dori, jo nage, kumi tachi, kumi jo, or straight kata work in any given class. Usually tanto dori is done in regular classes. All of these are required at various levels for grading. As I recall, kumi tachi and kumi jo are sandan requirements for example. Every student attending a weapons class will work on what is being taught, regardless of rank. So a 6th kyu might be doing kumi tachi with and alongside a sandan candidate.

Adam Huss 10-06-2009 06:42 PM

Re: Question about Aikikai kata and Yoshinkan bukiwaza
 
Hey Michael,

It certainly does sound like we train in a very similar manner. I think out weapons' techniques are spread out a little differently, rank wise, but the training idea is certainly the same...particularly at seminars. I think I learned Kumi Jo (a sandan req for us) before I learned Kumi Tachi (somewhere around brown belt level). I couldn't tell you about suburi reqs...or the current kumitachi...as it has changed in our organization over the years.

I am not affiliated with the AWA, or Moore Sensei's Shinjinkai for that matter, although I've visited dojo in both org. Our group split away from the AAA before Toyoda Sensei's death (I think). My best to all at the AAA and the Tenshinkan Dojo.
-Adam

Adam Huss 10-08-2009 10:29 PM

Re: Question about Aikikai kata and Yoshinkan bukiwaza
 
I just found out at an instructor's meeting that the Yoshinkan side of our org includes 97 weapons forms. We currently use only 45-50 for regular aikido testing, but all of them are included in our Aiki Buki curriculum (our teacher made aiki buki for those who wanted to focus more on weapons and took about half of the weapons forms out of regular aikido training due to sheer volume).

Ron Tisdale 10-09-2009 10:01 AM

Re: Question about Aikikai kata and Yoshinkan bukiwaza
 
Quote:

Students of Yoshinkan
-How much do you train in bukiwaza? The Yoshinkan side of my group trains heavily in weapons. In fact (not counting iaido) we have a separate class called Aikibuki which modifies bukiwaza to Yoshinkan stances and basic training principles (shu chu ryoku, shi sei o tada shitei, kamae/hitomei stances, etc). Just wondering if this is practiced with other Yoshinkan groups?
Most of the students of Kushida Sensei (now independant of the Yoshinkan) had a lot of exposure to his weapons forms, and continue to stress buki waza in their respective curriculums. Utada Sensei does, and the buki waza in the the form of solo kata and paired kumitachi starts in the kyu ranks, and continues from there. It is integrated into the majority of the aikido classes, and supplimented by specifc seminars throughout the year.

Best,
Ron

Adam Huss 10-11-2009 11:11 PM

Re: Question about Aikikai kata and Yoshinkan bukiwaza
 
Mr. Tisdale,

Thank you for the reply. That is something I was thinking but unsure of. I thought I remember a story about Kushida Sensei, or some of his students, being directed to learn more bukiwaza. I don't know much about Utada Sensei, thank you for that information.
all the best
Osu!
Adam

Ron Tisdale 10-12-2009 09:19 AM

Re: Question about Aikikai kata and Yoshinkan bukiwaza
 
Hi Adam, Ron is just fine, everytime someone says Mr. Tisdale I look around for my Dad! :eek:

Kushida Sensei has an extensive set of buki waza, and a lot of his students (Utada Sensei is one of those, he came over not too long after Kushida Sensei went to Michigan, and did his uchideshi time there) either suppliment with iaido training or other training of some sort. Not all Yoshinkan dojo do buki waza to that extent. It's kind of hit or miss, depending on who trained them the most, and their own particular tastes. Do you know who trained your immediate instructor?

Best,
Ron

Adam Huss 10-12-2009 04:05 PM

Re: Question about Aikikai kata and Yoshinkan bukiwaza
 
Kushida Sensei and Shioda Sensei are my instructors primary influences....I am sure he knows Utada Sensei, although I've never met him.

As far as the weapons forms from Kushida Sensei (Yoshokai, I guess his group is called now), the Utada background correlates to what my teacher told me. I was thinking I might be getting stories confused about how we got our aikido weapons forms (from Yagyu/Muso orgs.) through Kushida Sensei, and how we got Suri Ryu (sp?) influence added to our Kashima Shinto Ryu (Iaido) organization (Yamazaki Kiyoshi Sensei; Iai Tate Do Federation).

cheers
Adam


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