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Jorx 03-30-2002 04:07 PM

Aikido vs. WingTsun
 
Hello...

I'll be needing a little help and advice here. I happened to do some sparring with a WingTsun kungfu practioner and in hand-tohand one-on-one combat I got my ass kicked quite badly. In knife vs. knife I was able to move almost correctly (and keep the distance) BUT the hand-to-hand was terrible - he seemed to have no openings to enter to and he didn't do long attacks which could have been extended or redirected by me. All I could do was to back up but I couldn't hold up this forever so I ended up head held down and him bashing his knee to my ribs (or elbow to my head). When I executed a takedown (tenkan and shomen little above his knee when he kicked) he dragged me down with him. So I was quite f***** every way... (and we tried several times)
Has anyone any help or advice (or experience) in this field? Special Aikido defence against WingTsun/Chun?

Gratefully
Jorgen
aikido practioner

Chocolateuke 03-30-2002 06:25 PM

erm a couple questions first! how long have you been practicing? and was it fun?

The first question isnt to insult begginers nor you but I know a lot of "advanced" students go for a spar and come back with their bum (alternative to A++) handen back to them. Sparing is very fast and combative :) and to use aikido well in such a situation you would need a lot of knowlege on the aplications of your techneques ( I used to take and form of kung fu and sparing was fun!). in aikido we use shionage or ikkajo or the such but for their applications thats a thing randori is kinda for ( although sparing is a good way to see if you have this knowlege.) we have had several kung fu people come to our dojo and try to mop our sensei, sensei beats them everytime because he doesnt always use shionage or kote gashi but used Aikidos prinicbles of blending and stuff :). me I have once had a karate guy try to punch me with combo A or combo B. I mearly entered on the outside and pulled him on his weak spot and he fell ! :) of course i proably was lucky!

and my second question was it fun? i mean if it was you will learn all the cool stuff! aikido takes time and energy to learn!

Jorx 03-31-2002 04:17 AM

<erm a couple questions first! how long have you been practicing?>
3 years intesively (at least 3 2-hour lessons a week) against his 1,5 years.

One thing why I probably lost was his superior experience - 1,5 years of learning how to beat up ppl in one-on-one hand-to-hand combat while I have learned different disciplines under the concept of Aikido (staff, sword, knife, multiple attackers, falling etc etc) Another thing is he had more sparring experience. I hadn't practiced 100% no rules full-contact before.
And did I mentioned he was much taller than me
:p? (excuses-excuses)

Anyway... I had sparred before with some newbies from my class who could already fall but yet attacked with their "old moves" Then some "amateur boxing" And then once against my Aikido-classmate who had a black belt in shotokan-karate-do and also 4 years of some kung-fu. THAT was quite 50-50 (okay)
And I was ablo to disarm a drunkard with a knife who tried to cut me:D
So I was quite confident in my fighting skills till now (don't get me wrong - I'm no master... I just thought I could handle ppl my age and less experience and also drunk ppl.)

What was the problem in this current case:
It was so UNLIKE karate or boxing (or Aikido randori)... He was so aggressive. And yet had no holes in the defence. Of course I tried to apply principles:) About your advice - shihonage - coulnd't start extending the attack (because it was SO short - chainpunching) after the grab while he was already bashing me with his other hand/elbow and knee. Ikkyo (omote) THAT might actually have worked... maybe my irimi was just too crappy (laughs) Anyway... when I tried he was already IN MY FACE before i could take his balance.

and my second question was it fun? i mean if it was you will learn all the cool stuff! aikido takes time and energy to learn...

Of course it has been fun... otherwise I wouldn't have spent 3 years on it:) And I think it helps me in my everyday life more than some other arts WOULD. I just have got a LITTLE (just a little) doubt about combat efficiency and teaching methods when I was defeated by someone who has learned less time than I have (my jaw still hurts:confused: )

Any other advice?
Any other experience to be shared?

Jorgen
Estonian Aikikai

jk 03-31-2002 06:57 AM

Hello Jorgen,

Reasonably competent Wing Chun practictioners can be quite a challenge...I'm guessing the reason you found few holes in his defense was because of his emphasis on dominating the centerline.

Not really aikido stuff that I have tried against Wing Chun guys: Round kicks to the legs (but you better have your round kick down cold). Side kicks, from abdomen down. LOTS of lateral movement. This stuff worked OK for me back then (when I was younger), but it sure wasn't guaranteed. I wasn't (and am not) much of a grappler, so I seldom tried any wrassling takedowns.

I'm sure you can find a way to apply aikido principles when practicing with a Wing Chun partner. Off the top of my head, don't let him dominate the centerline so easily; make him work for it. In other words, you make damn sure you occupy your own centerline. Secondly, when those chain punches start coming at you fast and furious, the WORST thing you can do is back up in a straight line. Maybe you can tenkan your way into a nice kokyo ho. Then again, maybe not. Hopefully, the more seasoned aikidoka here can chime in...

At any rate, keep working with this guy; I'm sure you'll pick up a few things. Make sure you let us know. :)

Regards,

mle 03-31-2002 06:17 PM

Re: Aikido vs. WingTsun
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Jorx
Hello...

I'll be needing a little help and advice here. I happened to do some sparring with a WingTsun kungfu practioner and in hand-tohand one-on-one combat I got my ass kicked quite badly.
Has anyone any help or advice (or experience) in this field? Special Aikido defence against WingTsun/Chun?

Erm.. first of all, what are you doing "sparring"?
Particularly without your sensei/si-fu there to advise?
Post black belt or shodan (5th level?), or maybe in that indestructible brown belt phase, okay, but otherwise... what were you thinking?

Jorx, I have studied both WingTsun and aikido. I know that in ANY martial art prowess is far more up to the practicioner (and whether or not they have found something which suits them) than anything they practice.
I have "sparred" with WT practicioners and had them at my mercy. I have also been at theirs. Same with other practicioners, other styles. Yes, under a direct student of Leung Ting, student of Yip Man. (www.awt.com)

Play, have fun, learn. Find what suits you. Train in it. Don't worry about comparisons. At the highest levels, all arts are the Tao.
If YOU can be, anyway.

And good luck with those cold winters! I had a bad fall this winter too, more due to speaker wires in my car than ice... owie.

mle

aries admin 03-31-2002 07:00 PM

ATEMI
 
Sometimes Aikido practioners tends to forget to ATEMI. Its a very powerful technique to confuse and distract the opponent.

Most likely the WT practioner you were trying to spar is highly adept in force to force confrontation. Just by waiting for him to move and look for an opening you are actually playing on his terms. Try doing some Atemi's on his face and body the moment he attacks you. Once distracted you can go around him away from his attacks and apply Aikido Techniques.

O'Sensei was once visited by an Jujitsu practioner and asked to spar with him. O'Sensei let him spar with Saito (if Iam not mistaken) Saito just used atemi's everytime the jujitsu practioner comes close to him.

BTW, I do spar and practice with several arts Tae Kwon Do, Karate and boxing. Its hard but my Aikido techniques work very well.

shihonage 04-01-2002 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jorx

Any other advice?
Any other experience to be shared?

Jorgen
Estonian Aikikai

Yeah. Quit thinking of idealizes techniques that we practice in the dojo.
Do whatever comes to you the moment it comes to you. Don't categorize anything.

It's not Aikido that's sparring. It's YOU.

Jorx 04-01-2002 02:24 AM

Thanks for all the replies 'till now it has been quite great and very helpful. Especially mle's - thanks for trying to bring me back to the ground and not to encourage me:rolleyes: BUT:

At first to Aries:
<ATEMI>
Just for the record - Unfortunately I'm not very skilled in this part 'cause my teacher doesn't put a big emphasis on that.

Then to JK:
Just thanks for the most practical advice.

And last but not least to mle:
<Erm.. first of all, what are you doing "sparring"? >
I personally think that anyone who wanted to should do sparring... - afterall it is a little closer to the reality than prearranged methods and mybe even standard randori. And of course we had all the protective gear and his si-hing to instruct.

<Play, have fun, learn. >
I do:) I think Aikido suits me... (as I said I wouldn't do it if I wouldn't think that way)and that's what I did the sparring for - to have fun and to learn something out of it. And I did I think. Somewhere inside I was probably wanting also proof to my fighting-ego and nonexistant combat skills:P As I and my friend have always been sort of competitive to eachother then maybe I was just looking for to put him in his place which is exactly a very wrong use of Aikido which is exactly WHY I lost and why I felt quite devastated about that.

:o I'll do it again... definitely... but I wil try to keep up a different mindset for that time and then maybe I'll learn a different lesson.
I try to be ME;)

Best wishes:cool:
Jorgen
Estonian Aikikai

Never losing means never fighting!
Morihei Ueshiba

nikonl 04-01-2002 08:37 AM

i totally agree with shihonage.... :)

Lyle Bogin 04-01-2002 09:32 AM

You are having trouble, as many aikidoka do, becuase you are not used to sparring in this way.

Sparring is not fighting.

I suggest you learn to spar. The best way to learn to spar is....to spar.

Also, you haven't lost to your friend. What have you lost? So, you were dominated. Welcome to the world of sparring. One day you'll be totally dominating your partner, the next he'll be knocking you on the floor. That's the game.

In sparring, your partner can afford to use attacks that effect you, but don't elminate your ability to counter and/or continue. Many aikido techniques are designed for heavily commited attacks (I imagine that eventually any kind of commitment will do), which he did not need to use and which are not charaterized in wing chun training.

To tussle with strikers, I believe an understading of striking is an invaluable tool. My personal favorite combination for a wing chun striker is a cross feignt followed by a lead hook.

Sparring is a game. If you want to play, you must learn some of it's rules, as it will not conform to your ideals. Ever wonder why, no matter what style someone comes from, professional stand up fighters all look like kickboxers of some sort? It's because stand up fighting inevitable leads to certain situations that have certain efficient solutions. You aikido must be a quick, decisive, and efficient as a jab to your nose.

Bruce Baker 04-02-2002 08:49 AM

Wing Tsung vs Aikido
 
Accept sparring practice for what it is, trying to score hits, then learning to apply what you learn with angle and direction in kata to creating pain/ damage with those moves. It is one thing to have the charted points of a strike poster, it is another thing to have the knowledge to put them to use.

I was interested in learning Wing Chung (the wrong spelling, but sometimes written this way) in the first two years of Kempo Karate/ Jujitsu. I think my teacher was the first to start to incorporate some Krav Magaw,too, from Israel in 1992, at least around NJ/NY area?

Wing Chung was supposed to be a five year study to make warriors ready for battle vs ten to twenty years in other MA? At least that was what I was taught and read in my studies. It didn't take in some of the advanced/ longterm studies of offense/defense but based it priority on centerline and short sword or small weapons. There are many good points that are not covered in other arts, but don't get stuck there ... learn, treasure what you learn, and keep learning.(Even Wing Tsung teachers recommend ten years in the system to begin to master it.)

Wing Tsung, you will find, depends on the practitioner being at arms length from the opponent. Although that is a close quarters battle position, it becomes difficult to the beginners to see the value of centerline protection we use in Aikido until strikes/kicks find openings. Then suddenly, we have a new class that is simular to centerline protection of Wing Tsung? That is up to your teacher as to how detailed they want your Aikido practice verse fighting skills to go. Remember, Aikido was not to be used for harmful means....

A cousin of my buddie did Wing Tsung for about three years, and we fooled around with "What if" for about ten minutes. Then we came to "Show me", and I showed him two of Wally Jay's jujitsu lessons ... I guess I over did it because he yelped and fell to his knee's with both techniques. (After I began Aikido, I found them there also, but much gentler.) We laughed, and he massaged his arm as we talked about practical applications.

Do not discard what you learn about punching, kicking, centerline protection ... it is expected to be known by a good Aikido student, or at least discovered in practice. Studying other MA will give you greater respect for Aikido with many of your strikes finding meaning within the openings of Aikido techniques will give you.

Play nice, and have fun ... Aikido fun.

Why be verses?
Why not add it to your knowledge?
I have.


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