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-   -   My take on a Mike Sigman seminar... (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16705)

Keith Larman 08-24-2009 10:31 PM

My take on a Mike Sigman seminar...
 
Mike Sigman gave an intensive 2-day seminar a few weeks ago (August 8 and 9, 2009) in Orange County, California, at the Orange County Aikikai as arranged by Gary Welborn. It was intended to be a "hand's-on" training in those things Mike likes to write about but it was geared towards the Aikido crowd. I was very busy that weekend with family things as well as visiting some customers of mine. But that got me into the neighborhood so I managed to get to both days albeit a bit scattered, distracted and tired.

FWIW the original announcement on Aikiweb was here: http://aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16132

Now I'm not sure where Jun would want this thread posted. I'm thinking general discussion myself as it was geared towards Aikido practitioners and held at the Orange County Aikikai. I'll just say right up front that I don't mind at all if it gets moved elsewhere -- I'm not really sure how to characterize it even after the fact.

First, I'm surprised someone else hasn't already written something. One thing it does remind me of is that there are a lot of people who go to things like this rather frequently (I saw friends from out of state at this one myself) but don't necessarily feel the need to comment. And I tend to be more of that sort myself as well. But... I noticed no one else commented so I figure maybe I should.

So this is the view through my eyes filtered through my experience and of course my preconceptions. I try to keep an open mind (an empty cup), but as human beings we tend to try to categorize according to what we know and find contrasts and comparisons with our own experience first. And right now also realize I'm on a heavy dose of Nyquil due to a nasty head cold compliments of my 8-year-old daughter. So pardon the digressions and tangents.

I'm not going to give a comprehensive outline of what Mike taught because it simply isn't possible. We worked on establishing connection to the ground and he showed some interesting methods for teaching that connection. I found his methods interesting and very useful. There were some things I've done before, but Mike covered a lot of the overall framework and added a lot of interesting variations. There was a bit of time I found myself bouncing between "what I know" and "what he was teaching". I have my own habits, some bad, and as usual they didn't help me any in that aspect. So I have to say it was very good for me to have new and different ways of both trying things out but different ways of conceptualizing and understanding what was going on in those things. FWIW, my style of Aikido, Seidokan, is an off-shoot of Ki Society. Our late sensei, Rod Kobayashi, was a major believer in what he called ki training and focused quite a bit on many of these same things albeit often in different ways. We test every aiki taiso in multiple ways to try to teach students how to move as a unified "thing", connected from the center out to the tips of their fingers and down into the ground.

So, seeing things through my eyes of my experience I saw a lot of things that were familiar, and some things that really filled in some blanks. I'm still working on ideas that were inspired by Mike's training, especially the feelings of connection though the "suit" (as he called it) down the arms to the pinkies and of course back into the center of the body. I've long struggled trying to explain a similar feeling to students when I do certain techniques. I've even remember the first time I realized what I was feeling as one of my sensei was guiding me through a movement. But I was never able to put a framework around it within which to understand it, let alone give me a good way of teaching it to someone else. So that part in particular of Mike's presentation really gave me a lot to both think about but it made a whole slew of connections to dangling ideas that I didn't even realize were dangling out there unexplained and not as well understood as they should be.

Mike Sigman also presented a number of interesting movements and exercises with a cut-down pool noodle that were both a blast and surprisingly difficult. I'm still trying to remember some of the movements -- Mike, if you're reading, what I really need is just a few seconds of video of a couple of those things. I understand it isn't how you learn, but I get what I'm supposed to be doing and feeling and I just need a visual reminder sometimes.

So... I had a great time and it was well worth the time. I learned a lot. I came away with a lot to think about and a lot of new "tools in the toolbox" to work with. As well as some expanded ideas of what it is I should be doing with those tools in the first place.

Now... Since I'm sure someone will eventually ask... Is this something missing in Aikido? Well, my first comment is to read Ellis Amdur's fantastic post here: http://aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16657

Really. Read it twice. Then get his new book -- I've skimmed major portions and intend to sit down and read it in detail in the next few days. So far I'm enjoying it immensely.

Now with all that said... I'm very uncomfortable with a lot of the discussions here. Not because the topics being discussed aren't important, but because some tend to take such an absolute position. People say things like "'IT' (trademark, copyright, etc.) is missing in Aikido". I find that as absurd as those who say "Aikido is whatever I want it to be, especially what I am doing". I've worked with sensei over the years who can be remarkably stable and strong and who can summon up incredible amounts of power seemingly out of nowhere. I remember helping teach a gun takeaway technique at one of our summer camps. I ended up paired up with a Rokudan. I outweighed him by 50 pounds. I was younger. I was stronger. I was taller. I had him in a position where I should have been able to at a minimum power him down into the ground. And he just stood there absorbing everything I tried to give. My technique went to hell almost instantly as he drained me. And of course I made the stupid mistake of trying to up the intensity rather than improve my technique and he just shut me down even more. It was all about structure, alignment, him taking away my advantage by subtle changes in his body. It was one of those "you're defying physics" moments that reminded me of why I trained with these people.

Anyway, my point is that saying "it is missing in Aikido" is absurd on the face of it when you consider the diversity and breadth of Aikido out there. When we split off from Ki Society decades ago we left and quietly kept to ourselves, mostly not going out into the bigger Aikido world for decades. And from the beginning for me I was being drilled on keeping that solid center, connecting to the ground, developing a supple body that could direct and absorb ki, etc. And we tested things in as many ways as people could think of. So it wasn't unfamiliar territory. But I'll also say Mike is *really* good at this stuff...

I remember a visitor we had in our dojo for a while. Trained extensively in Japan. His movement was crisp, precise and quite frankly amazing to watch. He was no doubt effective but in part it was because he was strong enough to overpower. His form "looked" great. But his technique always left me feeling more like I was overpowered by force than simply "taken over" (which is a hard idea to explain). Most of the time I felt like I had the ability to take him over due to the "stiffness" of the movement. Of course this is in part illusory -- I could shut him down but really at the risk to my or his physical well being. This was a while back and it reminded me that different people have very different ideas of what Aikido is all about. Tremendous skill in that visiting student. But a different "operating system" for lack of a better phrase. I enjoyed it and learned a few things from him as a matter of fact. But I do think he was missing some of that elusive stuff some call "it" on the forums. And I know I have a long way to go myself.

Absolutes can be fraught with danger. Extreme positions are rarely correct. In a world of such diversity one should be very careful to make absolute pronouncements.

So... What did I think of Mike's seminar? It was great. I learned a lot. That said I still think the pissing and moaning about it being "missing" from Aikido is a monumental waste of time. Sure, I do agree that lots of people do things rather shoddily. I do think the body developed by the hard training in Aikido with good instruction is different. I know I could certainly be a lot better at it myself. And I certainly learned a lot of interesting things in his seminar.

What I came away from it with was the idea that guys like Mike are teaching more direct as well as structured methods of developing these skills. I think some have long sought out these skills (and I do think there are those who have developed them), but that many teach technique without realizing they are missing that core stuff that makes it go "over the top". So guys like Mike are giving us additional methods, new ways of thinking about it, new ways of visualizing and understanding what's going on internally. I don't, however, think this means "reintroducing" it to all of Aikido (as if there is such a thing). For some, sure, they need reintroduction. For others maybe it could use a tune-up. Others could benefit from different perspectives to expand on the understanding. And some may not want it at all. Again, it is a diverse world we occupy in Aikido.

There is so much more to any art that comes along with it. And as such each person may weight the importance of these things in different ways. It is easy to become the enthusiastic, almost evangelistic supporter of some aspect of something. And it can be difficult for people like that to understand that others may not feel the same way. Or may have different priorities. Or may be comfortable with developing those skills over a much longer time frame while they work on everything else.

I'll also point out that each person learns differently. Sometimes a student simply does not mesh well with the style of their teacher and whether they know it or not they simply are not learning what they need to learn. Sometimes what is being taught *is* correct and useful (to someone else), but just not accessible to the person standing there with the teacher. As I was told a while back about an obscure area of sword polishing me understanding or even noticing something was not a necessary condition for it being the case. Whether I notice it or not it might still be there. So some go out and eventually find a teacher that speaks to them and is able to teach them in the way they are ready to learn. And when they find that special teacher it is easy to make the jump to saying that what that person is doing is *the* holy grail of all training in the art. Hence the almost evangelical zeal we tend to see in on-line discussions. But just remember what makes a teacher "click" with a student varies as much as people vary. And there's a lot of things to "click" on in Aikido.

I think a drop in the intensity of the hyperbole would go a long way to opening things up a lot more. People do want to learn. People do want to expand their understanding. But not everyone has to do it the same way for it to be valuable for their needs, lives, wants and desires.

Thinking about Dr. Goldsbury's wonderful threads on history as well as Ellis Amdur's writings I'm struck that we're talking about this gigantic heterogenous group of people called "aikidoka" going off in a lot of different directions. It is easy to be on one branch and point to a different one and say "hey, you guys are going the wrong way!". Aikido is a remarkably complex art and with a remarkably diverse history due to the various directions things have gone. Some want to become Ueshiba Morihei. Good luck with that. Maybe you'll find that. Some want to go in the directions of their own teachers. Maybe it is Tohei (my lineage for example). Maybe it is Shioda. Maybe Tomiki. Maybe Kissomaru or Moriteru.

So with that out of the way... I've been lucky to have spent time with a number of interesting people over the years. Recently I did the Aikiweb seminar with Toby Threadgill, George Ledyard and Aaron Clark. I learned a lot of all of them and saw bits and pieces of the same things there as well. It is a blast having Toby Threadgill grab your arms then say "I've got your center, now I don't, now I do, now I don't" all the while realizing "geez, he really does...". I'm looking forward to future training with Toby Threadgill. I had very good experiences with Mike Sigman and I hope he comes back next year so I can see if I managed to improve anything. Someday I hope to get time with Dan Harden too (and I want to see one of his swords). But as a poor artisan it is tough ponying up the cash to get to everything. So we make do with what we can do.

Having Mike give me a powerful push with that internal method was really cool to feel. I've had it done to me before and I've even pulled it off a couple times myself over the years. But now I have a more developed understanding of how to do it better, more consistently, and see how far I really have to go myself to get there. And I'm itchin' to find an opportune time to whip that one out...

So... It's all good. If you are so inclined and can get to one of these things, by all means attend -- I had a great time. If you're not so inclined, well, I think you might be missing some good stuff, but hey, there's lot of good stuff and lots of reasons why we do what we do. So Gambatte!

Keith Larman 08-24-2009 11:23 PM

Re: My take on a Mike Sigman seminar...
 
I wrote all this in a gigantic Joyce-ian stream of consciuosness event.

After walking away then reading it again...

Summary.

Great seminar. Learned lots. Lots left to learn. Hope to do it again.

On the issue of "It" being missing from Aikido. I have no doubt "it" is something that was part of what made Aikido a powerful and amazing thing in the hands of the very best. I think "it" has been retained by a few, lost by many, and is all over the place in between the two extremes today. What Mike offers, however, is a very nice method of focusing in on that stuff, a framework within which to understand it, and many methods of developing it explicitly to allow you to "recast" what you do with that underlying framework. I find myself about where I thought I was -- somewhere in the middle. Some skills, but more to learn and more to develop.

Story of my life... ;)

Alfonso 08-25-2009 10:41 AM

Re: My take on a Mike Sigman seminar...
 
Hi Keith, it was my pleasure to meet you at the seminar.

I'd like to sketch in a few extra details for general consumption.

About half the people at the seminar were Aikido folks, some were in CMA, a few in Danzan Ryu , at least one Koryu student. Overlap in some categories. The seminar had an Aikido slant and was held in an Aikido dojo.

What Mike did was make a very structured step by step presentation of how to get a foot in the door undestanding of how the ki/kokyu strength works, how it is different from "not ki/kokyu"

The presentation built gradually from the previously introduced concepts and kept adding on and on. Mike's progression is such that a lot of complications are neutralized by the way the exercises were done in order to get to the meat of the concept. So, most folks I saw were able to really get to "do" some of the more mysterious things that I'd felt from some visiting Aikido shihans. In particular one high point for me was being pinned in a one hand ikkyo pin by an attendee who grokked that particular point at the seminar.

By the second day it was plain to me that the material is big, bigger than I'd seen in Aikido so far. I was encouraging to see how it can make sense even to me, at my dim light level.

Getting full mastery of the skills presented by Mike in a couple of years looks quite a preposterous claim to me. Knowing how to work and what to aim for is a much much better perspective than the idea of a magic pill seminar.

I did run into "familiar territory" in areas, and was reminded very much of things felt as uke for visting folks. But it's quite a different thing to understand how and why...

Highly recommended

Keith Larman 08-25-2009 11:40 AM

Re: My take on a Mike Sigman seminar...
 
Yeah, what he said. :)

I agree on the notion of the seminars being a starting point rather than a silver bullet. Lots to learn, lots of work to do, and lots to think about. Some things went well, others, not so well. Which just means more thinking, more practice, and chance in the future to check on progress.

I often remind myself of the notion that we should never be afraid to step outside the lines every now and then. Go to someone doing something different. And sincerely give it a shot. At worst you'll have spent time finding out that it really isn't something for you and you'll never have to worry about it again. And at best you might find answers to questions you didn't even know you had and your perspective will become that much richer for it.

Scott Harrington 08-25-2009 02:58 PM

Re: My take on a Mike Sigman seminar...
 
Mike Sigman Seminar Review

Overall rating: A+

Covered a lot (a lot!) of material. Had a decent lesson plan and ‘progressed' us thru the internal strength program so by
Sunday we had a decent idea of the hows and some of the whys. Will definitely recommend and go again. Great cross-platform teaching to any combat art.

Mike showed charisma, competence, humor and the ability to know when the brain was going to mush with overload.

Material: A+

Surprised by how many times he said, did, or showed something important that I have seen in classes, video, books and seminars -- the difference was this was just a two day class. The pieces became a whole.

Comprehension: B

Coming from a Japanese -styled background made some of the Chinese internal references a minor stumbling block for me. But I can learn and look up on the web. Perhaps a definition sheet? Either way, explained in a clear, concise way and showed 1) immediate applications and 2) stuff that needed to be trained into the body.

Location: A+

OC Aikikai did a great job, plenty of room, tangerines for a quick pickup, lunch and dinner nearby, and nice crowd. The group ranged from Aikido and Jiu jitsu people, of course the Chinese Arts, Swordsmen and Sword polisher (which I got to catch being thrown across the room) and even a Rolfer! Everyone worked well together.

Conclusion:

The big thing now is ‘Internal Strength' whether on the web, comments, or seminars (one coming near here next month). My take -- techniques are great like candy, but there are certain fundamental principles that make the arts (Aikido, Judo, And Chinese Internal & External) work BETTER. The trouble is to get BETTER, one must practice BETTER. And the only way to get to Madison Gardens is practice, practice, practice. BETTER practice.

In closing, I remember at the Aiki Expo with Kondo Sensei of the Daito-ryu. Over the classes I trained that he taught, I picked up 3 or 4 things that made me better. Noticeably, immediately better at doing a group of techniques. I was proud, I was a bad***, I could even show the partner I was training with how to do IT. Then it hit me, Kondo Sensei probably threw out 25 things and they all went over my head except those 3 or 4.

Mike Sigman probably threw out at least 25 things and I got 3 or 4. Those 3 or 4 will make me better, but how do I get the other 20 -- 21? BETTER learning on my part.

Scott Harrington
co-author of "Aiki Toolbox: Exploring the Magic of Aikido"

Mike Sigman 08-26-2009 07:49 AM

Re: My take on a Mike Sigman seminar...
 
Thanks for the reviews and too-kind words, guys. That was a sort of odd workshop because of the diversity of experience in it; I wound up doing a lot of ad hoc stuff that was not in usual workshops, for various reasons.

When I'm doing a workshop, my ultimate goal is to set someone up to be on a good-enough path that he/she will have some good and demonstrable basic skills the next time I see them. And I'll know when they push me, next time. ;)

The workshop was, as has been noted, Aikido oriented, and so there was a lot of emphasis on the existing Aiki Taiso exercises and how they functioned in terms of internal strength. I think the relationship of the 4 wrist exercises opened a few eyes, from remarks people made to me, but I think that there were a lot of obvious-when-shown relationships that will be helpful for peoples' progress as time goes by and they think back to the workshop. But we won't know for a while.

Another oddity about that particular workshop: I always figure the success of a workshop will be determined by how good someone gets from that workshop; in this case, I thought there were a few real power-hitters there and I'm looking forward to big things.

Best.

Mike

Eric Joyce 08-26-2009 12:31 PM

Re: My take on a Mike Sigman seminar...
 
Sounds like everyone had a great time and the feedback was very positive. Mike, if you are ever in the Phoenix area, please let me know. I highly recommend coming here during the winter time :)

David Orange 10-07-2009 12:33 PM

Re: My take on a Mike Sigman seminar...
 
Quote:

Keith Larman wrote: (Post 238748)
I'm still working on ideas that were inspired by Mike's training, especially the feelings of connection though the "suit" (as he called it) down the arms to the pinkies and of course back into the center of the body. I've long struggled trying to explain a similar feeling to students when I do certain techniques.

Keith, was that because you didn't realize that what you were feeling was the fascia--because you were thinking in terms of muscle?

My first inkling of what was going on was when I felt something like that and realized that it was not muscles I was feeling, but fascia.

Thanks.

David

Keith Larman 10-07-2009 01:02 PM

Re: My take on a Mike Sigman seminar...
 
Yeah, I think so to some extent. As an example I see how it can be very useful to communicate what's going on with some techniques that took a *long* time to get "good" at (my definition of good meaning I could relax and still have "power") like ushirotori where you basically "expand" what i'd now call the suit to gain a bit of space. I remember realizing I was able to do what I hadn't been able to do before a while back. And what I was told by my sensei over the years made sense then. But I ran into the same problem of transmission -- how to explain that feeling since it wasn't muscle and it wasn't *really* just relaxation either. There was something else going on and I could make it happen but I just couldn't explain it to students (nor to myself for that matter).

Honestly the hard-headed academic in me wonders if the "suit" thing is truly "fascia" or something else (or combination of other things). But that said there *is* no doubt something very real is going on with these guys. I've felt it before with a couple different martial artists I've had the pleasure of meeting and training with over the years. So having some sort of framework to finally hang my hat on and practice for a while has helped me further understand and improve my waza. So there is most certainly value here. I'm just still pondering and practicing. So I stay relatively quiet and keep training...

One comment is that some get so enthused by the one aspect that they start to lose the bigger picture of the entire art. And others get so enthused with the bigger picture that they lose critical details. Right now I'm just trying to find chudo...

FWIW I also had another seminar with Toby Threadgill a few weeks ago. Different explanations to some extent, but the same feelings and a *lot* of power.

Anyway, lots on my plate to still chew and digest. And with a knee supported by a very expensive brace due to a partial ACL tear I'm kinda going in slo-mo with a lot of this. So I keep watching, feeling, practicing and wondering... And wishing my knees and back were 20 years younger. Or at least that I'd treated them better for the last 20...

Mike Sigman 10-07-2009 01:39 PM

Re: My take on a Mike Sigman seminar...
 
Finally got a moment to look through a few threads. One thing I'd say (again) that is pretty important... there's more to sorting out what is the trunk and what are the branches of these skills than people are differentiating in current conversations. It's an important point that will make a big difference later. If we think back to a few years ago, many people were saying there is no such animal as the I.S. skills... that was wrong. People are now lumping I.S. skills together as one animal and that's wrong, too. I could define the differences reasonably clearly, but I'm interested in watching the current developments (with bemusement)... but it's worthwhile mentioning (for the record) that there are some very important differences and not this one-lump idea of "I.S. skillz". ;)

Best.

Mike

Keith Larman 10-07-2009 02:06 PM

Re: My take on a Mike Sigman seminar...
 
Mike:

No disagreement at all.

wxyzabc 10-07-2009 07:29 PM

Re: My take on a Mike Sigman seminar...
 
[ People are now lumping I.S. skills together as one animal and that's wrong, too. I could define the differences reasonably clearly, but I'm interested in watching the current developments (with bemusement)... but it's worthwhile mentioning (for the record) that there are some very important differences and not this one-lump idea of "I.S. skillz". ;)

With all due respect Mike this is of no use to anyone...it places you in a position where you appear to know something that people are interested in... but you only hint at it...giving no further information to support this statement. If you can clarify the differences I`m sure we would be very happy to read it.

Kindest regards

Lee

HL1978 10-07-2009 08:59 PM

Re: My take on a Mike Sigman seminar...
 
Quote:

Lee Price wrote: (Post 242464)
[ People are now lumping I.S. skills together as one animal and that's wrong, too. I could define the differences reasonably clearly, but I'm interested in watching the current developments (with bemusement)... but it's worthwhile mentioning (for the record) that there are some very important differences and not this one-lump idea of "I.S. skillz". ;)

With all due respect Mike this is of no use to anyone...it places you in a position where you appear to know something that people are interested in... but you only hint at it...giving no further information to support this statement. If you can clarify the differences I`m sure we would be very happy to read it.

Kindest regards

Lee

There are martial arts that focus on striking, there are martial arts that focus on grappling. The different internal martial arts training methods out there , just like martial arts in general have different takes on different skills, and different training methods for different skills. This leads to significant overlap of the same skills so that they are recognizable by other martial artists, but they can see the differences as well.

Think kote gaeshi in judo as well as aikido.

Mike Sigman 10-08-2009 01:37 AM

Re: My take on a Mike Sigman seminar...
 
Quote:

Lee Price wrote: (Post 242464)
With all due respect Mike this is of no use to anyone...it places you in a position where you appear to know something that people are interested in... but you only hint at it...giving no further information to support this statement. If you can clarify the differences I`m sure we would be very happy to read it.

Well, my point was to mention that there are differences in training methods, results, and goals in I.S., so that it's clear that there is not just *one* thing being lumped under the term of I.S. I didn't want to digress too much.

If your question was more along the lines of "can you give some examples?", there are tons of examples that have to do with using the hara (most people engaged in the current discussions on this forum really don't use the hara, in the full sense),using the ki versus using kokyu power, and so on. I.e., it would help people to know that "I.S." contains a lot of subsets so that they don't go to a workshop by Joe Schmoe and think "ah.... so that's I.S. and that's the end of that subject". Traditionally, the comment is "these topics are very deep". Knowing that might help the perspective of the discussions.

BTW, I'm out of town and using a very small netbook, so my discussion ability is limited.

Best.

Mike

wxyzabc 10-08-2009 02:24 AM

Re: My take on a Mike Sigman seminar...
 
Hya Mike

Thanks for taking the time to reply....I can understand where your coming from now...

Cheers

Lee


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