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TEARO 08-14-2009 11:33 PM

A question about Shihonage!
 
Why is it called Shihonage?Can you use it to throw a person in Four directions?

I know Shihonage means four direction throws but I don't see the four directions!

Shadowfax 08-15-2009 05:55 AM

Re: A question about Shihonage!
 
Heiney Sensei just explained this one to us last week... lets see if I get it right.

You have forward and back as you enter and pivot to pass under Uke's arm.
You have up and down as you raise Ukes arm and throw him.:D

Forward,backward, up, Down... four directions.

dps 08-15-2009 06:19 AM

Re: A question about Shihonage!
 
Quote:

Firas Msaddi wrote: (Post 237667)
Why is it called Shihonage?Can you use it to throw a person in Four directions?

I know Shihonage means four direction throws but I don't see the four directions!

Shiho nage comes from shiho giri or four direction cut.
When doing shiho giri with a bokken you are practicing turning to receive attacks from four different attackers from four different directions.

In this video clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs157f6dlXs)
you will see zengo giri ( two direction cut), shiho giri (four direction cut) and happo giri ( eight direction cut) with the bokken.

In shiho nage you should do the same but instead of a bokken you are use the four different attacking ukes.

David

eyrie 08-15-2009 06:36 AM

Re: A question about Shihonage!
 
Quote:

Cherie Cornmesser wrote: (Post 237675)
Forward,backward, up, Down... four directions.

It's the same 4 directions as shiho giri as David explained, but NOT as he explained in terms of 4 different attackers.

Essentially, you can throw (the same) uke in the opposite direction of the attack, i.e. behind him, in the same direction as the attack, or to either side of the attack (from the same side that you are on).

In actuality, it can be in *any* direction... probably easier to show than explain in writing... ;)

Erick Mead 08-15-2009 06:50 AM

Re: A question about Shihonage!
 
Quote:

Ignatius Teo wrote: (Post 237677)
Essentially, you can throw (the same) uke in the opposite direction of the attack, i.e. behind him, in the same direction as the attack, or to either side of the attack (from the same side that you are on).

In actuality, it can be in *any* direction... probably easier to show than explain in writing... ;)

I agree with this description. The mechanics of what is happening tracks the cross-wise motions of happo undo to produce smooth elliptical curves of entry and throw, as with the Trammel of Archimedes:

dps 08-15-2009 07:18 AM

Re: A question about Shihonage!
 
Quote:

Ignatius Teo wrote: (Post 237677)
It's the same 4 directions as shiho giri as David explained, but NOT as he explained in terms of 4 different attackers.

Essentially, you can throw (the same) uke in the opposite direction of the attack, i.e. behind him, in the same direction as the attack, or to either side of the attack (from the same side that you are on).

In actuality, it can be in *any* direction... probably easier to show than explain in writing... ;)

It is also used to practice turning to receive another attack from another direction after the throw of the first attack because your attention should not be on the person you have just thrown but possible attacks from other directions.

None of the techniques of Aikido are practice to do just one thing. When practicing a technique you are practicing multple skills.

David

Shadowfax 08-15-2009 11:49 AM

Re: A question about Shihonage!
 
ah yeah that is what she did tell us. Thanks for the reminder. :D

Suru 08-15-2009 01:14 PM

Re: A question about Shihonage!
 
Since I analyzed the words, "four-direction throw," I have seen it as facing the four right-angle directions (N, E, S, W) during the technique, along with every other circular direction in-between. As far as what I hear Mary Heiny Sensei said, that is a new way to look at it for me because I think back to the three-dimensional cross. This is a symbol the Founder speaks about. In "The Secrets of Aikido," John Stevens Sensei parallels shihonage and gratitude; perhaps he means we should offer thanks in every direction instead of taking life for granted.

Drew

eyrie 08-15-2009 05:31 PM

Re: A question about Shihonage!
 
Quote:

David Skaggs wrote: (Post 237679)
your attention should not be on the person you have just thrown but possible attacks from other directions.

I'd partially agree with this, but not with the argument and logic of how you arrived at this conclusion. It would be accurate to say that your primary focus should always be on the immediate threat, while your peripheral awareness should be on potential secondary and tertiary threats.

Quote:

It is also used to practice turning to receive another attack from another direction after the throw of the first attack...
Sure, it *could* be used for that purpose, but the argument is akin to the old debate of the functional purpose of Naihanchi (a Karate kata). You appear to be drawing the same conclusion as many have done - that the function of the kata (or in this case waza) is based on the lines of embusen; i.e. used for fighting with your back against a wall, or whilst standing on a dyke in the middle of a paddy field, or defending the King on the steps of the castle. It simply isn't... *could* be used, is not the same as why a technique is named as such.

TEARO 08-15-2009 07:27 PM

Re: A question about Shihonage!
 
Thank you guys for the help!

rob_liberti 08-15-2009 08:56 PM

Re: A question about Shihonage!
 
I agree.

4 directions is as good as 8 directions which really means ANY direction. I've also seen jujitsu folks start shihonage the same way and have it result in 4 different (devastating) endings.

When I thought driving power from thrusting from the hips was critical, I thought that the most helpful way to get beginners to think about it is to have nage be as SW corner, and uke be at the NW corner. Then as nage thrusts and then follows in a NE direction, uke lifts themselves up and starts pivoting (which nage continues to follow) such that they (the uke) start to fall in a SE direction to the SE corner, landing the pivoted nage in the NE corner. So the 4 directions are nage orientation from facing NE to SW (and floor), and uke orientation from facing SE to NW (and ceiling).

Now, I would say I do something entirely different, which does not depend on driving from hips or following (but I still think following people into themselves is a valuable skill to learn).

Rob

thisisnotreal 08-20-2009 11:20 PM

Re: A question about Shihonage!
 
Quote:

Ellis wrote:
And in post #14, someone wants to write: "Shihonage is a manifestation of using the ground to effect aikiage and aikisage in one circle. You transfer power in spirals up the legs through the hara, using windings of ground force, etc." (I just made that up -- and I don't know what it means). What I suggest is that the writer starts a NEW thread in the Internal Strength section, with a preface,
Well I found this here thread...and I was wondering if what you say is legit. it has a strange kind of ring to it. is it a hint?
cheers,
Josh

Aikilove 08-21-2009 04:06 AM

Re: A question about Shihonage!
 
The late Saito Morihiro Sensei used to explain shihonage and kotegaeshi with the sword.

In the clip (0.00 - 0.40) you find his usual display of shihonage's principle of being able to throw someone in 4 directions (and therefore 8, 16, 32... ad infinitum).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP-Hf...eature=related

Coincidentally Daito Ryu has the same throw but call it gohonage (5 directional throw) where the directions are north, south, east, west, and the added direction of "on the spot - i.e. where they (or you) are standing)".

For me it is also about training how to move freely in any direction as the situation demands it.

/J

mjhacker 08-24-2009 12:35 AM

Re: A question about Shihonage!
 
四方 (shiho) is a typically poetic way of saying "every direction" rather than merely 4 directions.

phitruong 08-24-2009 05:59 AM

Re: A question about Shihonage!
 
every time i heard folks mention that shihonage is the 4-direction throw, i cringed. i believed in Asian language, the literal translation is four-corners of the world. its meaning really is "around the world", i.e. you are moving in a full circle. personally, i believed it's not about uke, but it's about nage. then again, i am low on the totem pole, so what do i know? ;)

eyrie 08-24-2009 06:00 PM

Re: A question about Shihonage!
 
Phi... NOW you're getting into ancient Chinese cosmology! ;)

Adam Huss 08-30-2009 07:47 PM

Re: A question about Shihonage!
 
As was mentioned before, Shihonage translates as 4-direction throw but insinuates all directions. I believe there is a video by two married instructors with the surname of Krane (spelling?) who spend a bit of time displaying through some technique how shi'te can throw uke in a bunch of different directions from a single (the same) angle of attack. I thought it was a pretty neat way of physically displaying the "all direction" attribute of shihonage. If I can find the video I will post the proper names of the instructors, their affiliation, and the name of the video.
cheers,
-A

sswam 07-18-2015 07:54 PM

Re: A question about Shihonage!
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 238617)
every time i heard folks mention that shihonage is the 4-direction throw, i cringed. i believed in Asian language, the literal translation is four-corners of the world. its meaning really is "around the world", i.e. you are moving in a full circle. personally, i believed it's not about uke, but it's about nage. then again, i am low on the totem pole, so what do i know? ;)

This has the ring of truth to it.

rugwithlegs 07-19-2015 06:46 AM

Re: A question about Shihonage!
 
Same as in English, the world "News" is from North East West South, the four corners of the globe but really means information and stories gathered from everywhere instead of exactly North Pole, exactly South Pole.

I do have a drill I like to play with. Put either four or eight sticky notes in a big circle, and stand in the middle of the circle. Throw your Uke, all attacking with the same arm, with you keeping the same foot forward, to different points on your circle. Return to the center each time, the goal is to train being able to throw Uke where you want them to land. Shihonage Ura throws Uke the direction they attacked from, Omote throws them in the same direction they were traveling (Kihon basics - the bigger the opening movement, the more of an angle). 90 degrees is a breakfall. There are several basic forms of Shihonage that some teachers identified, and they all have their trajectories. As Shihonage can be damaging, I tend to start someone new to this drill with Iriminage or Tenchinage instead.

JP3 07-19-2015 10:30 AM

Re: A question about Shihonage!
 
Yet another way to explain shihonage is to change the initial initial translation from 4-direction throw to throwing in 4 directions. Explained more, taking uke's balance sequentially in 4 different directions with the last being terminal (not dead, but the gake, execution) of the throw.

Neat thing is to watch beginners learn this throw and they almost always try to turn it into "Sanhonage," meaning they leave out one of the off-balancing directions, usually the "Up" one.

Really nasty variation is the 3-quarter backstep away to uke's side instead of the forward step to uke's back and then the downward cut of the hands for the typical shihonage throw. We call that tenkai kotegaeshi or kotekujiki. Nasty bit of business that ends up with a (if you are practicing and not trying to maim someone) a nifty 3 way submission lock at wrist, elbow and shoulder.

JW 07-20-2015 11:44 PM

Re: A question about Shihonage!
 
Quote:

John Hillson wrote: (Post 344336)
Same as in English, the world "News" is from North East West South

Where did you hear that? It's not true according to my dictionary (which says the word comes from the Middle English plural word for new things, "newis").

Anyway I like the drill. The uke all come from the same direction initially? As in, there is a line of uke that all take turns attacking from the direction of a certain point on the circle?

You could have it so that if an uke lands at a sticky note, he removes it as he leaves, so that the nage has to continue until he hits all the targets.

rugwithlegs 07-21-2015 09:43 PM

Re: A question about Shihonage!
 
I stand corrected, I heard this years ago and was told it for true. I remember a book from pre-Internet days saying the same thing. Dozens of sites calling this an old wives' stale.

If I had referred to the Four Corners of the Globe, the idea would still apply as really this is another way of saying everywhere. News is an achronym for the four compass points, but the four compass points are not the source for News according to a dozen websites.

Many variations on the drill - can do just kuzushi to the compass points, or I have had someone walking around the circle randomly and I set up a technique to use Uke as a human shield. The marks are just to stop me from cheating. I like your idea.

Most basic, a line of uke coming from zero thrown to 45, 90, 135, 180, all the way to 360. I've done it with just one Uke, but it takes more time. For fun, have the Uke stand where they land - can you miss the other people? For a variation, instead of hitting all the marks, penalize yourself for every time you or your partner hit one. Then, have a regular class, bodies everywhere, and keep the same penalties. It's just mat awareness, and awareness of the direction a basic technique moves Uke in. Have fun, thanks for catching me.

Walter Martindale 07-22-2015 06:18 AM

Re: A question about Shihonage!
 
A bit OT, but then there's the World Series (baseball), which is not a World Championship of people from all over the world, but a professional baseball championship that (AIUI) takes its name from the New York World newspaper, the original sponsor of the trophy.

GMaroda 07-22-2015 08:34 AM

Re: A question about Shihonage!
 
Quote:

Walter Martindale wrote: (Post 344355)
A bit OT, but then there's the World Series (baseball), which is not a World Championship of people from all over the world, but a professional baseball championship that (AIUI) takes its name from the New York World newspaper, the original sponsor of the trophy.

Which also isn't true. One journalist made that claim, without proof, and it got spread.

Man! Folk etymologies suck! :)

All this (shihonage, news, world series) does lead me to remember not to think of names too rigidly. I could see how keeping to one definition, particular of a translation from a foreign language, could lead one to discount other possibilities. I'm not thinking of anything in particular, just a general admonishment to myself.

Shadowfax 07-22-2015 03:51 PM

Re: A question about Shihonage!
 
Not much point in reading a lot into the name of one technique, when the names of several others translate as one, two ,three and four and there are dozens of varieties simply lumped under the single name kokyunage.


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