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thisisnotreal 07-30-2009 10:45 PM

the changed body
 
Has training in non-Aikido Martial Traditions changed your body?
Has it mostly made it stronger and better? Or weaker and worse in some ways? The bodyskill being discussed is said to 'be an investment for old age'.
Can you really raise your arch, if it falls? Can you realign your body (within reason) so that your knees stop making grinding sounds? Can you balance your shoulder on both sides? what is the ultimate limit of balance?

some thoughts:
was watching some old people folded over walking. all hunched forward. they were leaning to get away from the groundpath thru their body, i think. because the joints and alignment hurts to hold, if standing erect. mostly due to soft tissue damage? skeletal alignment? dunno. but they were running away from the pain. i think maybe you have to run into the pain. but you have to find, and know, the _right kind_ of pain (not pain at the end of a joint's range of movement, say). suffering through the right kind of pain will change and improve you, right? (that's obvious; lifting weights is that, for sure). So how is this 'it' different? i think at "It's" heart it is about not flexing at all. or the enemy of 'it', if you will.
But to train _that_ i think you have to first flex them. then master them.
Postulate: "Ability to flex all your muscles at full intensity through all their ranges of movements and in any combination is highly valuable and desirable". Postulate: "if you find your muscle cramps at any position; you should let the cramp come to completion". is that crazy talk? or does that make you stronger? it seems to restore balance. Resets the length-tension relationships that were askew. Can you exploit charlie-horses for the powers of good? i think yeah.

Not that it's 'it':
I thought 'The Permanent Pain Cure; The Ming Method' is truly a good book. It helped me a lot to get stronger and balance the body. I think you can learn how to be 'in' your body better. You learn how to work at high muscular tension safely and how to safely 'sit-in/engage' your fascial connections. Simultaneously, ostensibly, it will realign you. (using Sherrington's law, Davis's law and things from CMA, i read). Lots of self-discovery and good stuff. The book has 3 parts; only #2 is truly unique(1st part is water/supplements, 2nd part; stretches/PNF, 3rd fitness). definitely recommend it. no; i'm not getting kickbacks; just think everyone should at least see the book.

Anyone ever do pistols and (attempt) 1 arm pushups like in 'Naked Warrior' by Pavel Tsatsouline? Learned lots doing that but I hate it. But I can feel the tension and self-alignment forces at work afterwords, for sure.
just some thoughts, like i said.
you guys got any tips for a joe schmo?

p.s. i read somewhere about making 'the body to be jealous of itself' in this ('It')context..does that mean anything to anyone?

Best,
Josh

thisisnotreal 07-30-2009 11:23 PM

Re: the changed body
 
does anyone do any crazy stuff..
.. like trying to literally do the opposite of what you are _actually_ doing? Like pushing away from the chin up bar while you are actually doing a pull up? Or pulling towards the ground when you are actually doing a push up?(in some circles; this must be remedial i realize) Here, i mean _literally_ engaging those muscles that would be opposing? is this the way to raise the DC offset level of muscular tension (maintaining the balances) in the body? Is this the 'where' we can choose strength over flexibility? Can the hara/dantien be the trim-pot to balance the whole whetstone-bridge that is the body? Is this the contradictory work, spoken of? it sure is crazy, if not at least 'contradictory' ...seems more like crazy than an argument... to me, at least).
Another example: like standing, shoulders width apart, and folding forwards into a stretch w/ hands on ground. really stand for a while. then balance on the bone/jin paths - arms & legs. relax deeply. Then get _into_ the muscles..really engage them, flexing and stretch...get into the windings.then relax. then while flexing/surging the legs and deeply relaxing into the stretch of the legs...literally try to lift your feet off the ground. as hard as you can. be brave .. swallow the pain. I'd swear that something is rising. like a 'pulse' of 'flex'. this doesn't have a thing to do with anything related to 'rising energy', does it?
know that i am talking about things i barely understand. (how many of ya picked up on that?) yeah i know. just sharing..
just sharing.

Quote:

does anyone do any crazy stuff..
well, do ya?

Tom H. 07-31-2009 04:51 AM

Re: the changed body
 
Quote:

Josh Phillipson wrote: (Post 236141)
Has training in non-Aikido Martial Traditions changed your body?
Has it mostly made it stronger and better? Or weaker and worse in some ways?

Yes. Yes. No.

In two years I went from having one of the most non-athletic, non-martial, unconnected, imbalanced, unstable, uncontrolled body you can imagine to reading comments like this:
Quote:

Rob Liberti wrote: (Post 216096)
I have a lot more years in previous training than Tom H (who had zero) - but I would NOT want to go punch for punch with him.

That was last year. I continue to train with Dan & co., and earlier this year I started olympic powerlifting. On Rob's "entirely different scale of power", I'd say I was well below 1 out of 10 at the time he made those comments, and I'm now *maybe* somewhere between 1 and 2).

Tom

jss 07-31-2009 06:17 AM

Re: the changed body
 
Quote:

Josh Phillipson wrote: (Post 236141)
Has training in non-Aikido Martial Traditions changed your body?
Has it mostly made it stronger and better? Or weaker and worse in some ways?
Quote:

Tom Holz wrote: (Post 236147)
Yes. Yes. No.
<snip>, and earlier this year I started olympic powerlifting.


That's funny/interesting. My answers would be: yes, yes, yes. Training in internal skills has decreased my upper body strength, which I consider to be a good thing because you shouldn't be using it.

thisisnotreal 07-31-2009 06:33 AM

Re: the changed body
 
Joep - dunno. I thought it was more about skillfully and selectively using the strength. not that strength itself is bad and should be reduced to below some threshold...but more about finding and using it in the right way...once you can 'get out of your own way'. (That said; surely being hulking & ripped probably doesn't help IS...). What u think?

thisisnotreal 07-31-2009 06:48 AM

Re: the changed body
 
Quote:

Tom Holz wrote: (Post 236147)
Yes. Yes. No.

In two years I went from having one of the most non-athletic, non-martial, unconnected, imbalanced, unstable, uncontrolled body you can imagine to reading comments like this<:
Quote:

Rob Liberti wrote:
I have a lot more years in previous training than Tom H (who had zero) - but I would NOT want to go punch for punch with him.

Tom,

Nice, man! Hah! That sounds pretty impressive. Would you be able (/willing) to give any concrete examples of changes you noticed _in_ the body?
For instance: What changed/strengthened/loosened/tightened or improved bodily to achieve those results? I am assuming that the bodymethod and shugyo used is proprietary and not discussable. That's fine( :( ). Although i was wondering: can you say anything about the kinds of work? Is it like 80% solo? ZZ (/standing?)? mostly partner? Is there anything specific you can share or advice about what it is being trained? Cheers man, thanks for the post.
Best,
Josh

jss 07-31-2009 06:54 AM

Re: the changed body
 
Josh, there's a reason I said 'upper body strength', as you can read in this post by Mike Sigman. It's the reason why muscled legs and thin, wiry arms are a possible indication of internal strength.

thisisnotreal 07-31-2009 07:08 AM

Re: the changed body
 
Joep- thanks. I hadn't seen that. interesting. fwiw; i remember reading Takeda's forearms were huge but arms small.

Kevin Leavitt 07-31-2009 07:44 AM

Re: the changed body
 
Yes. Since meeting up with Mike Sigman, Rob John, Ark, and Toby Threadgill in the last 2 years....and a few other things...it changed my perspective on my training and what I need to do in order to get better.

I dabbled in this stuff for a while, not really giving it the commitment that it required. (I still liked to be "entertained" by going to the dojo and rolling or doing waza). However, a few injuries, and the level of frustration of not really getting anywhere, I decided to change a bunch of things in the last 7 months.

One, Diet. Losing 35 lbs has helped. Another 22 to go and I will be down in my BMI range. Already have Triglycerides back to normal as well as cholesterol. Working on the BP thing.

Two, I took up a pretty serious Yoga practice. Bikram is working for me. I see many parallels between what I have learned from these gentleman. Breathing, building the suit, core, strength of the core etc.

While the Yoga may not be as specific to martial application...it is available to me locally and I can practice it daily under competent supervision.

The more I do, the stronger, more connected I am becoming. Mike Sigman tried to get me to conceptualize and feel the "suit" as he calls it. I could not 18 months ago. I am starting to kinda get what he is saying now....a little....felt the stretch through my fingers last week as I did a couple of asana and connected it with my breathing.

(thanks Mike!).

How have I benefited?

Well my backpain is almost non exsistent. The Numbness in my leg/foot from Sciatica is gone. I am gaining feeling back in my right arm from damaged C5/6/7. so that is good.

I feel better overall in my body...and at least feel like I am beginning to reduce my use of my upper body in Waza...although I have a way, way long way to go.

BJJ is much more measurable and quantifiable..although many would say this is external...I don't care...I am able to move better, with more efficiency and I am beating more guys and holding my own more than I was a couple of months ago.

So, my take on all this Solo training stuff is that it works and you must do it.

For me 80% of my training time is now spent on solo work. I will continue to comit to this for a while cause this is what I need. At times I may go to 50% or 20%...it just depends on alot of factors.

What is the secret?

I think just doing something. Doesn't matter to me if it is Mike Sigman's, Arks, or even a really good Yoga practice.

You can't afford to just sit back, think about it, and do nothing for fear of doing the wrong thing. I wasted alot of time over the past 2 years doing this. Jump in and start breathing and stretching and moving your body in some way. There is enough out there on You tube and in Yoga to start doing something.

I think there is a certain amount of base work/conditioning that is necessary for you to really benefit from "master" level instruction.

This was apparent when I got with Ark. I lacked it and it was evident to me. Hopefully the next time I get with him, I will be better prepared to physically work with his training.

Anyway...it is fun, and I like how I am feeling in my body. I like the fact that I really feel I am doing a practice that will allow me to train as I progress from middle age to old age and maybe I won't be hobbling around the dojo with a cane and a blown out back.

rob_liberti 07-31-2009 08:12 AM

Re: the changed body
 
My back muscles are changing and I'm not sure I like it yet. I have decided to embrace transition.

I think yoga is wonderful too. Kevin, I think you'll really like acitve isolated stretching as well. I find it more efficient for resolving body issues than any yoga. I find yoga much better than AIS for de-stressing and emotional support - you know my "other" issues. :)

Josh, it seems like you really would get a lot of your questions answered by attending one of any of those guys' workshops.

Rob

thisisnotreal 07-31-2009 08:29 AM

Re: the changed body
 
Hi Kevin,
Nice post. Thanks for taking the time.
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 236154)
I see many parallels between what I have learned from these gentleman. Breathing, building the suit, core, strength of the core etc.

The more I do, the stronger, more connected I am becoming. Mike Sigman tried to get me to conceptualize and feel the "suit" as he calls it. I could not 18 months ago. I am starting to kinda get what he is saying now....a little....felt the stretch through my fingers last week as I did a couple of asana and connected it with my breathing.

right on.
Can you say anything about connecting with the breath? Certainly has to do with keeping a baseline of intraabdominal pressure, doesn't it? Kind of like the valsalva maneuver, but with the epiglottis open? (I may be talking BS) .. but that is what I found.

Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 236154)

Well my backpain is almost non exsistent. The Numbness in my leg/foot from Sciatica is gone. I am gaining feeling back in my right arm from damaged C5/6/7. so that is good.

Definitely. There is some interesting cervical stuff in the Ming Method book. …shows how to decompress the discs .. to make some ‘room' and to get them rehydrating. It may or may not be safe to do for someone with damage to do (i don't know) so be careful if you check it out. Have you seen it?

Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 236154)

BJJ is much more measurable and quantifiable..although many would say this is external...I don't care...I am able to move better, with more efficiency and I am beating more guys and holding my own more than I was a couple of months ago.

I was wondering about the transition to the internal. Is it binary/boolean or transitional shades of grey. Do you learn to trust the one above the other and slowly moving all the eggs over to the other basket? If so; then what you say is normal. I can't imagine the learning process to the IS can be such a quick transition. My opinion only..

Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 236154)
What is the secret?

I think just doing something. Doesn't matter to me if it is Mike Sigman's, Arks, or even a really good Yoga practice.

You can't afford to just sit back, think about it, and do nothing for fear of doing the wrong thing. I wasted alot of time over the past 2 years doing this. Jump in and start breathing and stretching and moving your body in some way. There is enough out there on You tube and in Yoga to start doing something.

Nice. I like that. I am of the same mind. But I know that left alone; it is impossible I'm doing it right, and definitely picking up habits. Or even injuring myself. Conversely there seems to be some self-corrective self-guiding aspects to the feel of it that…kind of make you ‘come back to first principles'. I wonder about the dangers of this work…stagnant ki and all that.
dunno.

Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 236154)
Anyway...it is fun, and I like how I am feeling in my body. I like the fact that I really feel I am doing a practice that will allow me to train as I progress from middle age to old age and maybe I won't be hobbling around .. with a cane and a blown out back.

I hear you. This is also is my hope.
The health aspects of this are amazing and encouraging. Self-aligning and energizing work. My opinion; we should all know about these types of self-maintaining health aspects of it. I have a theory that says life comes with a certain amount of pain. We are going to feel the pain regardless. Either it is due to falling apart as we age, or the pain will be felt while building up the body so as not to fall apart. I feel this stuff shows a way to organize and build the body. Learning the way we are meant to move and ‘make' and ‘bear' power. It would help to make people sensitive to their postural errors, soft-tissue problems, inflexibility issues …and gives a method and the tools to fix ‘em. On the negative side: The problem is it this all seems to fn hurt and is a shit pile of work. On the positive side it is free, shows you how to self-fix as you age, enabling you to do it (largely) without drugs and surgery, as is becoming the ‘normal way to get old' (in the west?). Was daydreaming of opening a health clinic for this stuff; then I remembered I don't know anything ... and then about the general laziness of people (i.e. people won't stick with it). They say in physiotherapy circles that even the patients with the most to gain out of the ‘corrective' exercises don't do ‘em. 'cause it's hard.
just some thoughts. Thanks again for yours, Kevin.
I gots to do me some work now. …
Josh

thisisnotreal 07-31-2009 08:31 AM

Re: the changed body
 
Quote:

Rob Liberti wrote: (Post 236157)
...
Josh, it seems like you really would get a lot of your questions answered by attending one of any of those guys' workshops.
Rob

That, Sir... is crazy talk.

thisisnotreal 07-31-2009 09:36 AM

Re: the changed body
 
Hi Rob,
Sorry, i always go for the cheap laugh...

Quote:

Rob Liberti wrote: (Post 236157)
My back muscles are changing and I'm not sure I like it yet. I have decided to embrace transition.

Seriously though; What do you think the choice is between, in regards to the transition of your back?
I'm reminded of RJ talking about the issue of Hiden with the archers. Impressing the difference in the quality of the development of musculature. (I can't recall more) I never did see that pic.. but remember looking for it.

Quote:

Rob Liberti wrote: (Post 236157)
.. I think you'll really like active isolated stretching as well. I find it more efficient for resolving body issues than any yoga.

That sounds like a great tip. i don't know anything about this, I think.
I thought this was part of that
Quote:

Does it have anything to do with PNF used to condition to build strength over flexibility? Did you ever hear of Dara Torres? Watch the 3rd video down >here<
Can you recommend a good book for AIS? (or vid)
Are you talking like, The Genius of Stretch by Bob Cooley (I didn't like that book much, fwiw) (/Meridian stretching) but got a few things out of it. I'm not even sure that is what you are talking about.
Thanks for the ideas, Rob.
Best,
Josh

NAF 07-31-2009 10:12 AM

Re: the changed body
 
Josh-

I have been a patient of Ming Chew's for a few years... Of course I have his books.. Ming saved me from getting torn labrum surgery as well as healed my DeQuervain's tendonitis. Although he says if I keep doing Aikido, I'm going to keep seeing him, he has kept me able to train.. A few months ago, I could not lift my left shoulder at all for a few days and was very worried. Ming and his method fixed me in 1 session... If you ever make it to NYC, he is worth meeting.. Ming trained in BJJ with the Gracies although he has stopped in the last few years.. His stretches and/or work out routines have also helped me a great deal.

Kevin Leavitt 07-31-2009 12:00 PM

Re: the changed body
 
Josh wrote;

Quote:

Can you say anything about connecting with the breath? Certainly has to do with keeping a baseline of intraabdominal pressure, doesn't it? Kind of like the valsalva maneuver, but with the epiglottis open? (I may be talking BS) .. but that is what I found.
Heck man I don't know, I just try and do what they tell me too! LOL.

Also, I have learned when doing waza or BJJ you need to breath to relax and be connected...so I just do it.

The big deep breathing thing (Pranayama) I think is about developing and strengthening the secondary muscles and structure in the body. Mike Sigman talks alot about breathing and developing the suit of muscle and fascia network.

All I know is that they tell me to do it....I am doing it and I feel better and more connected and stronger when I do it.

I quess when all these guys over the years say it is important and I want to emulate them...well then...

That is about all I can really say about it. I am not very insightful sorry.

Thomas Campbell 07-31-2009 02:07 PM

Re: the changed body
 
Quote:

Tom Holz wrote: (Post 236147)
In two years I went from having one of the most non-athletic, non-martial, unconnected, imbalanced, unstable, uncontrolled body you can imagine to reading comments like this:

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
I have a lot more years in previous training than Tom H (who had zero) - but I would NOT want to go punch for punch with him.


Tom


Tom H. 07-31-2009 03:58 PM

Re: the changed body
 
Quote:

Thomas Campbell wrote: (Post 236203)
<Hey Skinny Cartoon>

Pretty much, except imagine it's set in p-town :)

Tom H. 07-31-2009 06:54 PM

Re: the changed body
 
Quote:

Josh Phillipson wrote: (Post 236150)
Is there anything specific you can share or advice about what it is being trained?

Josh, I would be happy to show you in person just about everything I'm working on to change the way I hold my body and move at all times, e.g. so that I am constantly balanced in myself between pairs of opposing intent.

Listen to Rob, go to a workshop, and pick up some material to work solo (any one of Mike, Ark, or Dan will give you good specifics to get started). See them again after you've trained for a while. Look for a person or small group to work the partner aspect.

Tom

Upyu 08-02-2009 06:25 AM

Re: the changed body
 
Josh,

Unfortunately this is just one of those things that no amount of information digging will help you until you get some hands on experience. Don't blow too many brain cells conceptualizing until you actually physically build your body up a bit ;)

Some people have noted the decrease in the amount of posting of "how-to's" etc by myself and others.
It's not that it's stopped but that they've moved on to other areas/boards where the signal to noise ratio isn't so damn high. :D

Demetrio Cereijo 08-02-2009 11:23 AM

Re: the changed body
 
Quote:

Thomas Campbell wrote: (Post 236203)
Skinny cartoon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAAnrqDygns

6:15 - 7:30

Mind over muscle FTW

:D

Buck 08-02-2009 11:35 AM

Re: the changed body
 
Quote:

Robert John wrote: (Post 236285)
Josh,



Some people have noted the decrease in the amount of posting of "how-to's" etc by myself and others.
It's not that it's stopped but that they've moved on to other areas/boards where the signal to noise ratio isn't so damn high. :D

Yea, I can see that Dude. The noise ratio is so damn high in some threads like the one asking, "is something missing in Aikido." Dude, its like your trying to discuss something cool, and someone clueless to what you said comes out of no where completely missing the point and has to comment. Trying to make you look bad or something. Dude like, it is alot of noise, I know what you mean. It's killing me, :dead: Dude in these low noise areas you moved on to. :)

Josh Reyer 08-02-2009 07:36 PM

Re: the changed body
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 236301)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAAnrqDygns

6:15 - 7:30

Mind over muscle FTW

:D

Man, beaches must have been tough places in the fifties...

Upyu 08-03-2009 10:27 AM

Re: the changed body
 
Quote:

Philip Burgess wrote: (Post 236302)
and someone clueless to what you said comes out of no where completely missing the point and has to comment.

I know I know. I have absolutely no clue what I'm talking about.
Zero. Zilch.

So uh, beyond the personal attacks... you want to fill us in on why Bruce Lee had "something?"

<Kicks back, opens a six pack of Sapporo>

thisisnotreal 08-04-2009 08:34 PM

Re: the changed body
 
Quote:

Tom Holz wrote: (Post 236228)
Josh, I would be happy to show you in person just about everything I'm working on to change the way I hold my body and move at all times, e.g. so that I am constantly balanced in myself between pairs of opposing intent.
...
Tom

Quote:

Upyu wrote:
Unfortunately this is just one of those things that no amount of information digging will help you until you get some hands on experience. Don't blow too many brain cells conceptualizing until you actually physically build your body up a bit

Tom, Rob,
Of course, I already believe you and know you are both right. Tom thank you for the offer; it is very kind. I will take it to PM.
I guess for some reason I feel self-possessed to try to take my understanding to its limits...on my own. To take it as far as I can, so that I know I did my level best..and then when my socks are blown it will mean all that more to me. I believe, fwiw, that there are loads of pointers here (and there) so that one could piece... something.. together. What kind of a frankenstein partial/fractured thing it is..i dare not say. I want to see how close i can get. Think i got something..willing to renounce that at some future time. I know time is limited; so I won't waste too much more of it.

All that being said,
One thing I am wondering about is that all those 'in the know' are saying the same things. This work is thee way to train; this is thee way to change the body for good. This way will enable/cause changes in the fascial films; This will enable control of the various systems of the body (that are usually under involuntary control). This stuff is IT, for lack of a better word. But i also know that truth is messier or more complex. I wonder, for instance if there is any negative or down side to the work? We've, for instance, all seen Schwarzenegger's deflated muscle-body now that he is older... I wonder what happens if you stop the kind of work that gives you IT. I also wonder personally; and thru comments like Rob's above about the body changes..and not being sure I/we/he likes them. I do personally understand that kind of comment; and am wondering if and what any tradeoffs are involved in the decision to 'take this up'. For instance, by taking conscious control of things that are usually automatic/autonomic ...what kind, if any, dangers are being implicitly assumed? I am trying to count the cost before embarking on the path that so many laud. Is it clear?

thisisnotreal 08-04-2009 08:37 PM

Re: the changed body
 
Buck, Upyu;

Well; I guess the challenge has been laid. Now, as martial artists; i think you know how this has to go...
...but I beg you "Don't do this to yourself"

vid<

p.s. Buck - "You've got a lot of guts" ;)
Don't sweat the small stuff. Life is short.
Best, Josh


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