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aikishrine 06-07-2009 10:36 AM

Bushido vs Budo
 
Is there a difference in these two terms as to there philosophies?

Carsten Möllering 06-07-2009 11:15 AM

Re: Bushido/Budo
 
Hi

I think ...

... the first and main intent of bushido is complete submission under a daimyo or someone comparable. So it is a sociological or social concept which tells how to behave.

... budo is the way of seeking personal development by practicing a martial art. So it is a technical and individual concept, which is about how to be.

Carsten

judojo 06-08-2009 06:40 AM

Re: Bushido vs Budo
 
Hi Brian Northrup, I read your nice Topic on Bushido versus Budo.The Bushido is the Samurai Warrior of the Nippon Empire, they are the Military and Shugon or Police of the Nippon Royal Political Empire, they are under the Royal King Emperor. But the Budo is the Martial Arts of Japan, It was thought in Schools of Japan as prescribe by the Nippon Laws of Education , thus the defense of individual of all Japanese people. And so therefor they are not opposing to both of these Words. Because the Bushido must Master the Budo, before he become a Samurai and Bushido.

Ketsan 06-08-2009 02:33 PM

Re: Bushido vs Budo
 
Quote:

Brian Northrup wrote: (Post 232100)
Is there a difference in these two terms as to there philosophies?

First off I'd say that the Budo and Bushido have identical spiritual goals: to produce someone that's mastered themself, the difference is in intent for that self mastery.
Budo has no martial intention. Bushido uses self mastery for purely martial reasons. You can be doing both at the same time though and that's Aikido, in some places.

For example, Kendo is budo but kendo has no practical martial application, it's just use of a martial style system to produce non-martial goals. So there is no intention in Kendo to produce a competant fighting man or woman, there is no martial intention behind it, self mastery is the goal.

Aikido, in some dojo anyway, is two fold, either by design or by accident. Whatever the intentions of O-Sensei there are people that study it and teach it for self defence, there is at least in places in the Aikido world, a martial intent it's not just a tool for making nice people.

Ron Tisdale 06-08-2009 02:38 PM

Re: Bushido vs Budo
 
Heh, I'm still confused by the attachment to the word "Bushido". I know we've hashed that out in another thread, but I still don't understand the attachment.

Is it the sound of the word? Is it the dubious connection to "samurai"? What is it about that word that attracts so much?

Best,
Ron

Mark Uttech 06-08-2009 05:21 PM

Re: Bushido vs Budo
 
Onegaishimasu. 'Bushido' carries with it the scent of the 'world of the Samurai'. I personally never got attached to the word, but in my beginning foray into the world of Japanese martial arts it seemed like an important word to add to your vocabulary; a signpost; something like that. Those of us who got into Aikido quickly replaced the word with 'Budo', which was supposed to be farther on down the road or something like that.

In gassho,

Mark

Mark Uttech 06-08-2009 05:25 PM

Re: Bushido vs Budo
 
Onegaishimasu. Silly me, I forgot to address the thread which is about the difference of the two terms, Bushido and Budo. By far the best description I read of Budo was that on the one hand, it meant
"to stop the thrusting spear" and on the other hand (and I love this!) it meant: "hey you! stop thrusting with the spear!"

In gassho,

Mark

Charles Hill 06-08-2009 06:00 PM

Re: Bushido vs Budo
 
In the book Aikido The Way of Harmony. Rinjiro Shirata says, "During the war, we were told that Bushido means to learn how to die. I learned that this is not the real budo; real budo is to learn how to live, how to live together with others in harmony and peace."

Chuck Clark 06-08-2009 06:19 PM

Re: Bushido vs Budo
 
Quote:

Charles Hill wrote: (Post 232211)
" ... real budo is to learn how to live, how to live together with others in harmony and peace."

YES! Using the principles, techniques, and discipline of bujutsu, we learn the Way of understanding self and how to get along with others.

I think Kano's "Seiryoku zenyo" and "Jita kyoei" say it succinctly.

Josh Reyer 06-08-2009 07:37 PM

Re: Bushido vs Budo
 
Budo - way of attainment through the study of combat.

Bushido - way of attainment through being a hereditary caste of sword-carrying bureaucrats.

aikishrine 06-08-2009 09:18 PM

Re: Bushido vs Budo
 
Quote:

Charles Hill wrote: (Post 232211)
In the book Aikido The Way of Harmony. Rinjiro Shirata says, "During the war, we were told that Bushido means to learn how to die. I learned that this is not the real budo; real budo is to learn how to live, how to live together with others in harmony and peace."

Some might say in the Japanese thought, learning how to die was and is in fact learning how to live.

Charles Hill 06-09-2009 01:01 AM

Re: Bushido vs Budo
 
Quote:

Brian Northrup wrote: (Post 232235)
Some might say in the Japanese thought, learning how to die was and is in fact learning how to live.

Hi Brian,

The question that popped into my mind when I read your quote is "Who, specifically does 'Some' refer to?" Because obviously Shirata Sensei disagreed with what you wrote, and, in my eyes, who would be a greater authority than him?

Charles

StevieT 06-09-2009 03:42 AM

Re: Bushido vs Budo
 
The problem with learning how to die is that it's so hard to find a good teacher.

Anybody who claims to have mastered this art is clearly lying!

aikishrine 06-09-2009 06:47 AM

Re: Bushido vs Budo
 
Quote:

Charles Hill wrote: (Post 232248)
Hi Brian,

The question that popped into my mind when I read your quote is "Who, specifically does 'Some' refer to?" Because obviously Shirata Sensei disagreed with what you wrote, and, in my eyes, who would be a greater authority than him?

Charles

I guess when i say some i mean the samurai. If you read Hagakure, or Bushido or some other classics on Japanese philosophy, they all seem to me to place a great emphasis on learning how to die in a dignified manner, with grace and courage.

Ron Tisdale 06-09-2009 06:56 AM

Re: Bushido vs Budo
 
Cough..."Classics"??? Hmmm...

Best,
Ron (I think I'd better shut up now)

Rennis Buchner 06-09-2009 07:49 AM

Re: Bushido vs Budo
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote: (Post 232260)
Cough..."Classics"??? Hmmm...

Best,
Ron (I think I'd better shut up now)

Move along, move along, nothing to see here....

Rennis

Ron Tisdale 06-09-2009 07:55 AM

Re: Bushido vs Budo
 
:D :D :D

Best,
Ron

Josh Reyer 06-09-2009 08:05 AM

Re: Bushido vs Budo
 
Quote:

Brian Northrup wrote: (Post 232258)
I guess when i say some i mean the samurai. If you read Hagakure, or Bushido or some other classics on Japanese philosophy, they all seem to me to place a great emphasis on learning how to die in a dignified manner, with grace and courage.

Yamamoto Tsunemoto, author of the Hagakure, who never raised his sword in anger: "I have found that Bushido (the Way of the Warrior) is in death."

Miyamoto Musashi, author of the Go Rin no Sho, who'd actually put his life on the line in combat: "Generally speaking, when people contemplate the heart of warrior (bushi) thought, they consider it no better than as a way in which being a warrior is simply in dying. But the way of dying is not limited to warriors alone. For even monks, women, farmers, and the classes below them, there is no distinction in their having a sense of duty, in knowing shame, and in being resolved in their own deaths. What is most basic in the Way of practicing the martial arts is overcoming your opponent in each and any event, whether in victory over a single opponent in a duel, or in victory in a fight with a number of men."

Ketsan 06-09-2009 11:57 AM

Re: Bushido vs Budo
 
Quote:

Joshua Reyer wrote: (Post 232269)
Yamamoto Tsunemoto, author of the Hagakure, who never raised his sword in anger: "I have found that Bushido (the Way of the Warrior) is in death."

Miyamoto Musashi, author of the Go Rin no Sho, who'd actually put his life on the line in combat: "Generally speaking, when people contemplate the heart of warrior (bushi) thought, they consider it no better than as a way in which being a warrior is simply in dying. But the way of dying is not limited to warriors alone. For even monks, women, farmers, and the classes below them, there is no distinction in their having a sense of duty, in knowing shame, and in being resolved in their own deaths. What is most basic in the Way of practicing the martial arts is overcoming your opponent in each and any event, whether in victory over a single opponent in a duel, or in victory in a fight with a number of men."

I always thought that the point of "the way of the warrior is found in death" stuff was so that you accepted that you were dead, got past your fear of death and so could get on with life more effectively.

In the heat of the moment you can't worry about survival if you already think of yourself as dead, so you have one less thing to distract you from doing what you need to do to stay alive.

The other point of learning how to die is to learn how to act with dignity even under the most demanding of circumstances, to learn not to telegraph what's going on in your head to an opponent.

Imagine the psychological impact of fighting someone that shows no pain or fear and contrast it with the psychological impact of fighting someone who is clearly afraid and does show pain when you wound them. If you've ever been told off for groaning or pulling a face when sankyo is slammed on, you know what I'm talking about.

Despite searching in vain, there is a quote somewhere that it's the man that throws his life away that survives while the man eager to save his life usually get's killed for just this reason. If I find the quote I'll post it.

Learning to die is not just learning to go and get killed, it's learning how to be in control of yourself in life threatening situations so that you're more likely to be successful.

Charles Hill 06-09-2009 04:06 PM

Re: Bushido vs Budo
 
Hey Brian,
Thanks for replying.

Quote:

Brian Northrup wrote: (Post 232258)
classics on Japanese philosophy.

You have got to run, not walk, to the bookstore and pick up Thomas Cleary's The Japanese Art of War. You will absolutely love it and learn so much that will complement what you have already read!

Good luck,
Charles

aikishrine 06-09-2009 07:16 PM

Re: Bushido vs Budo
 
Quote:

Charles Hill wrote: (Post 232319)
Hey Brian,
Thanks for replying.

You have got to run, not walk, to the bookstore and pick up Thomas Cleary's The Japanese Art of War. You will absolutely love it and learn so much that will complement what you have already read!

Good luck,
Charles

Thank Charles, i will go check it out tomorrow. I am always looking for good books to read.

Josh Reyer 06-09-2009 07:35 PM

Re: Bushido vs Budo
 
Quote:

Alex Lawrence wrote: (Post 232293)
I always thought that the point of "the way of the warrior is found in death" stuff was so that you accepted that you were dead, got past your fear of death and so could get on with life more effectively.

Originally, that's what was about. By Yamamoto's time, though, it had become a kind of death fetish, with men committing junshi (suicide following the death of one's lord) for no good reason, to the point that junshi was outlawed. This was the case of Yamamoto in specific, in that the Hagakure was written after he'd retired into the countryside after being denied the right to commit suicide.

Suru 06-09-2009 08:08 PM

Re: Bushido vs Budo
 
In America, bushido tends to lead to the chivalry of the ronin samurai because here, there really is no one for a person to serve with his life. The only exception I can think of right now is the Secret Service agents who would take a bullet for the president. Sure, I've served managers and company owners, but I would never put myself in a state of hardcore self-sacrifice for them. I believe many of the attributes surrounding bushido embody the characters of some people in the U.S. However, there are many, many more people in this country who aren't bad people per se, but they are only in it for number one (themselves).

Budo is, I suppose by direct translation, the martial path. I remember growing up with my friend who did karate. He is one of the gentlest guys I've known. He had rubber nunchaku and a green belt, I believe. We were ~11 at the time. After watching MC Hammer and his parachute pants on MTV, I distinctly remember (flashbulb memory) asking him if he "could [kick someone's butt]." His response was insane to me at the time. He said, "[I'm not supposed to actually use karate]." I was caught between the absurdity and beauty of what he said. It struck some neurological connection in my head and made perfect sense. Why I didn't take up karate that week is beyond me.

Drew

Keith Larman 06-09-2009 09:00 PM

Re: Bushido vs Budo
 
I do hereby formally suggest someone put together all the various posts on the umpteen threads that cover Bushido, Hagakure, etc. into one concise article. Then we need a button on the reply to thread page that allows easy direct insertion of the text directly into a reply.

Peter Goldsbury 06-10-2009 02:15 AM

Re: Bushido vs Budo
 
Quote:

Keith Larman wrote: (Post 232329)
I do hereby formally suggest someone put together all the various posts on the umpteen threads that cover Bushido, Hagakure, etc. into one concise article. Then we need a button on the reply to thread page that allows easy direct insertion of the text directly into a reply.

I am planning to discuss Yamamoto, Nitobe et al in Column 16.

PAG


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