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-   -   Aikido in MMA and Street Fight (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16176)

Blake Evans 05-18-2009 01:01 AM

Aikido in MMA and Street Fight
 
Hey guys,

Just wanting to know if you have used Aikido in a fight (real or sparing)? And if so how?

I must say I'm rather lucky and haven't been in a violent fight for a few year as I can normally talk my way out of a situation that looks it could turn ugly (normally it only cost $9 for another drink for some Yob with anger management issues).

I have trained in Muay Thai for a few years and Aikido for only a few months I also have friends who do boxing, BJJ, MMA and all the rest, we often have sparing matches (semi contact) and try new things or just to have fun and test our self's. I have lately found (I would say mostly due to my skill level) that Aikido Techniques are not always suitable to be applied in there entirety, that is some times I find it more effective to halt a throw midway and deliver I kick or punch.

At first I thought this was just me, however when in class and training with one of the sensei's he tends to stop mid throw and demonstrate (non contact) where and how different strikes can be applied.

So is this Aikido or is this a variation with elements from other arts mixed in?

Ron Tisdale 05-18-2009 08:23 AM

Re: Aikido in MMA and Street Fight
 
Depends...but if you read Ellis Amdur's material, he often stresses that at any stage in the waza, you should be able to strike (effectively). I've often heard that you should be able to strike while being safe from counter strikes as well.

YMMV
Best,
Ron

philippe willaume 05-18-2009 09:52 AM

Re: Aikido in MMA and Street Fight
 
Quote:

Blake Evans wrote: (Post 230298)
Hey guys,

Just wanting to know if you have used Aikido in a fight (real or sparing)? And if so how?

I must say I'm rather lucky and haven't been in a violent fight for a few year as I can normally talk my way out of a situation that looks it could turn ugly (normally it only cost $9 for another drink for some Yob with anger management issues).

I have trained in Muay Thai for a few years and Aikido for only a few months I also have friends who do boxing, BJJ, MMA and all the rest, we often have sparing matches (semi contact) and try new things or just to have fun and test our self's. I have lately found (I would say mostly due to my skill level) that Aikido Techniques are not always suitable to be applied in there entirety, that is some times I find it more effective to halt a throw midway and deliver I kick or punch.

At first I thought this was just me, however when in class and training with one of the sensei's he tends to stop mid throw and demonstrate (non contact) where and how different strikes can be applied.

So is this Aikido or is this a variation with elements from other arts mixed in?

Ok I’ll bite

According to whose lineage your aikido comes from you are more likely to have strike or no strike. That being said some sensei use strike even if they belong to organisation that usually does not use strikes.

So for some people replacing throw by strike will not be very aikido for some other it is just an alternative choice.

It is difficult to use aikido against someone who is fighting from an organised position, so you will have to use strike to make him move or to move him the way you want. If the move or chase after your it is easier but it they keep it tight. You will need to soften them up before. So it may very well be only strike

You can set up a few things by stepping as if you were setting up MT round house (or slipping a punch) but strike a cross or lead hand direct, and follow up with same foot as the fist, as if you were closing for an elbow and let you punch continue so you will end up as if you had elbowed him. You should be able to get the head, the hips/leg or the arm.
Personally I can not get any thing aiki if I swim inside the punches.

You need to think of ikkio and rokkio or any immobilisation as standing arms lock. I.e. you get the lock and then you take them down, to avoid problem you can agree with you friend that getting the lock on is enough (no take down from there).
And it really need to be on in such way that it control arm elbow and shoulder.

as well tecnhi and irrimi nague really need to look like the one in yoshinkan/iwama
ie you woudl thow them with their head locked or really stiking the head.
phil

Kevin Leavitt 05-18-2009 05:11 PM

Re: Aikido in MMA and Street Fight
 
Phillippe wrote:

Quote:

Personally I can not get any thing aiki if I swim inside the punches.
You can, it is just a much, much tighter fight and requires you to move tighter.

philippe willaume 05-19-2009 02:30 AM

Re: Aikido in MMA and Street Fight
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 230342)
Phillippe wrote:

You can, it is just a much, much tighter fight and requires you to move tighter.

That interesting, if you have something I am interested.
My mains problem if I try to swim inside (or swim through) the punches is that I can not really avoid a MT type of clinch. I mean it is not so much that you come in the middle but because ukes usually want to avoid elbows on your way in and get in better position to avoid the knee in the head. Uke tends to pre-empt a possible clinch by "initiating" it, if you see what I mean.
Other than doing the step on the side to counter that (hand getting in the same generic case as a slip), I can not really prevent him to close.
That being said I really dislike coming in the middle like that with my arms coming from the outside. I prefer the stepping on the side/slip thing, being inside or outside uke arm does not really matter.

Just to make sure that is what I refer to by swimming inside http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAo8YNxBwFc
The baddy does the swimming in that video

Phil

Hiriki_Aikidoka 05-19-2009 02:37 AM

Re: Aikido in MMA and Street Fight
 
yea a few times when im out drinkin with my buddies. espcially when i first started they would always say lets see wat u no and take a swing at me. lol but i dont havef a problem puttin them on there ass haha

salim 05-19-2009 07:38 AM

Re: Aikido in MMA and Street Fight
 
Quote:

Philippe Willaume wrote: (Post 230369)
That interesting, if you have something I am interested.
My mains problem if I try to swim inside (or swim through) the punches is that I can not really avoid a MT type of clinch. I mean it is not so much that you come in the middle but because ukes usually want to avoid elbows on your way in and get in better position to avoid the knee in the head. Uke tends to pre-empt a possible clinch by "initiating" it, if you see what I mean.
Other than doing the step on the side to counter that (hand getting in the same generic case as a slip), I can not really prevent him to close.
That being said I really dislike coming in the middle like that with my arms coming from the outside. I prefer the stepping on the side/slip thing, being inside or outside uke arm does not really matter.

Just to make sure that is what I refer to by swimming inside http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAo8YNxBwFc
The baddy does the swimming in that video

Phil

Good video. Very practical.

philippe willaume 05-19-2009 11:02 AM

Re: Aikido in MMA and Street Fight
 
Quote:

Salim Shaw wrote: (Post 230376)
Good video. Very practical.

Irimi nague from the clinch.
phil

DonMagee 05-19-2009 02:29 PM

Re: Aikido in MMA and Street Fight
 
My bjj coach taught Ikkyo last night and didn't even know it.

Kevin Leavitt 05-19-2009 03:11 PM

Re: Aikido in MMA and Street Fight
 
Good Video. Nothing to add really. it is all variations of the theme. Ikkyo and iriminage certainly apply.

Chris Evans 10-13-2010 10:12 AM

Re: Aikido in MMA and Street Fight
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote: (Post 230311)
Depends...but if you read Ellis Amdur's material, he often stresses that at any stage in the waza, you should be able to strike (effectively). I've often heard that you should be able to strike while being safe from counter strikes as well.

YMMV
Best,
Ron

nice, that's good to read. when prevention fails, knowing that I can strike hard gives me the confidence to see a way to not strike at all.

when I intervened to stop a fight (well, a beating in progress) in a Richmond bound BART train one afternoon, I was glad that I had years of Karate (and Hapkido) conditioning as I seem to know where their hands were (and that weapons were not being drawn) and that perp seem to know I was ready to strike (opening with an elbow cross to face), but holding back. Would also be useful to have a less damaging waza in my survival "vocabulary."

I am looking forward to Aikido enhancing and integrationg with my Karate and having a new fun outlet for exercise.

off topic: so far, a 90 min BJJ class is the most honest sporting contest and rigorous exercise I've tried, but a bit limited in scope due to their on the ground focus.

Conrad Gus 10-13-2010 12:57 PM

Re: Aikido in MMA and Street Fight
 
I found this program, "Samurai Spirit" by accident on youtube a few nights ago, and I'm hooked! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKqiFNGXPFU

The aikido episode has a couple of strikers attacking a Shodokan sensei in a park (in street clothes even!). He handles them very well, although the attacks don't really look like they are full strength.

Still a fun watch of a "realistic" aikido encounter. My sense is that they picked a shodokan sensei for the setup because of his experience with "resistence randori" (the term they use for their "competitions").

Interesting!

Hellis 10-13-2010 01:48 PM

Re: Aikido in MMA and Street Fight
 
I found the park set up a little too contrived. I did find some parts to be quite interesting.. Aikido is applicable in street and MMA but not as one sees it practised in the dojo.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Chris Evans 10-13-2010 02:18 PM

http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
 
Quote:

Henry Ellis wrote: (Post 266246)
I found the park set up a little too contrived. I did find some parts to be quite interesting.. Aikido is applicable in street and MMA but not as one sees it practised in the dojo.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

http://www.british-aikido.com/articl...artial_art.htm

interesting. thank you.

there are even karate-ka who'll "water-down" karate training for the understandable reasons of dojo insurance liability and the shyness to any pain.

Sirhoward90 11-15-2010 02:47 PM

Re: Aikido in MMA and Street Fight
 
To be truthful, you should focus on improving your footwork and keep evading, if you are in any type of situation where you are opposing your opponents force, you've left the realm of true aikido. I've noticed in my sparring sessions that when I'm being held in a clinch, over/under, single collar tie, whatever, that if i relax and feel where they are and where they are pulling/pushing, they become very easy to tip. Other than that, I'd recommend anticipating their movements and try to stay out of their range.

also, on the striking subject, in a self defense situation, i wouldn't recommend it, because of liabilities in court, they may be able to press charges. But in a sparring situation, go for it, it's a great way to amplify Aikido, and it creates openings for techniques you normally wouldn't be able to pull off against that particular opponent. =P

Michael Hackett 11-16-2010 12:02 AM

Re: Aikido in MMA and Street Fight
 
I disagree with Jeff above. Criminal and civil liabilities do not attach simply because one throws a strike. That assumes of course that using force is legally justified and the amount of force used isn't excessive. With all that said, if you can defend yourself or others without using strikes and kicks, so much the better when the event gets posted on You Tube. Kicking and punching look brutal to the public and that is a problem in its' own right. Unfortunately sometimes one has to use strikes for an adequate defense, even if they are intended as atemi as distraction blows.

ravenest 11-29-2010 08:04 PM

Re: Aikido in MMA and Street Fight
 
Quote:

Blake Evans wrote: (Post 230298)
Hey guys,

Just wanting to know if you have used Aikido in a fight (real or sparing)? And if so how?

In a 'fight' I tend to get into a kick boxing wrestling sorta thing. So I dont get into fights ... their nasty, end up in a scuffle usually, with grazed knees, scratches and bites ... if your lucky. Finish them as quick as possible I reckon ... or do the bolt :D

In a spar its much the same, kickboxey type of stuff, with occasions to use some type of aikido, usually after atemi. Sometimes someone might offer one a good opportunity for a classical aikido move, then I'll take it. But I'm no expert.

Its like kicking for me, I'm not a strong kicker and wont go in for the classic nutsmasher, but if my partner is just standing there, legs apart, in range, trying to punch me in the face, well .....

But I have never thought anyone martial art, for me, is the answer, I practice aikido at the moment but that and other martial arts I have done have never been the end all for me. Thats not why I do aikido

That being said, I have to say my aikido training has led me to a much grater understanding and interpretation of the application of techniques taught in other martial arts (specifically kata bunkais!)

Tony Wagstaffe 11-29-2010 08:48 PM

Re: Aikido in MMA and Street Fight
 
Quote:

Henry Ellis wrote: (Post 266246)
I found the park set up a little too contrived. I did find some parts to be quite interesting.. Aikido is applicable in street and MMA but not as one sees it practised in the dojo.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Yep! Spot on there Henry!!

Regards
Tony

ChrisHein 11-30-2010 02:02 AM

Re: Aikido in MMA and Street Fight
 
Real fight (ie. fights over something non-trivial): Pick up something heavy or sharp, use it. If anyone grabs your wrist or the heavy/sharp thing, to try and stop you from using "it", Aikido techniques offer many ways to escape the grab, make the attacker let go, or hurt their hand/wrist if they hold on. Once your weapon (hand) is free, go back to using your heavy/sharp thing.

Sparring: Sparring has structure. If that structure is boxing, then Aikido will not work well; Aikido isn't boxing. If that structure is wrestling, Aikido won't work well; Aikido isn't wrestling. If you know how to create the right sparring structure for Aikido, you will no longer need to ask this question.


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