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-   -   tori vs. dori (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15987)

Jon Shickel 04-07-2009 11:28 AM

tori vs. dori
 
Looking for video clips, I see what we would call tori is sometimes called dori. I.e. katate tori vs. katate dori.

Is that just an artifact of translating the Japanese name into the western alphabet, or does it have more significance?

ramenboy 04-07-2009 11:46 AM

Re: tori vs. dori
 
much like alternate spellings of kenpo/kempo, or shinbum/shimbum

Bob Blackburn 04-07-2009 11:52 AM

Re: tori vs. dori
 
One hand = katate
Grab = toraeru (tori)

Japanese will often change the syllable of the second word for easier pronunciation. i.e. flower = hana, ikibana is flower arranging. 'h' changes to 'b' since they are related in hiragana their phonetic alphabet. Same with 'to' and 'do'.

I asked my Japanese friends and they say they just know.

David Partington 04-07-2009 12:45 PM

Re: tori vs. dori
 
Although pronounced kempo and shimbun, the direct "translation" of the Japanese syllables when written in hiragana would be kenpo and shinbun. There is no syllable for "m" only "n".

This is probably anecdotal but when I first started learning Japanese, I noticed that text books/instructional videos & cassettes originating from an American source seemed to use the letter "t" when "translating" certain words from hiragana whereas books that didn't come from an American source always seemed to "translate" the same word or phrase using the letter "d". I never found out why.

Unfortunately, it was that long ago I can't remember which words they were but perhaps this could also be the explanation.

Josh Reyer 04-07-2009 01:32 PM

Re: tori vs. dori
 
Quote:

Bob Blackburn wrote: (Post 227893)
One hand = katate
Grab = toraeru (tori)

Close. :) Try "toru", "to take".

Quote:

Japanese will often change the syllable of the second word for easier pronunciation. i.e. flower = hana, ikibana is flower arranging. 'h' changes to 'b' since they are related in hiragana their phonetic alphabet. Same with 'to' and 'do'.

I asked my Japanese friends and they say they just know.
There are a few rules of thumb. Katate-dori uses "-dori" because "katate-tori" would be difficult to say at natural speed even for native speakers. Unvoiced syllables often become voiced following a syllable made up of an unvoiced syllable, and retain their usual sound when following a voiced syllable. They also often become voiced following the "-n" sound. And I believe intonation plays a role, as well, as it makes some combinations easier (or harder) to say than others. There are many exceptions, though.

akiy 04-07-2009 01:48 PM

Re: tori vs. dori
 
Here's a nice post (for us linguistics geeks) from David Iannucci from back in 2004 about this linguistic phenomenon called "rendaku" that occurs in the Japanese language:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...1&postcount=13

-- Jun

Jon Shickel 04-11-2009 03:27 PM

Re: tori vs. dori
 
Thanks for the insight, all.

Arashi Kumomura 05-12-2009 03:35 AM

Re: tori vs. dori
 
Quote:

Joshua Reyer wrote: (Post 227898)
Close. :) Try "toru", "to take".

There are a few rules of thumb. Katate-dori uses "-dori" because "katate-tori" would be difficult to say at natural speed even for native speakers. Unvoiced syllables often become voiced following a syllable made up of an unvoiced syllable, and retain their usual sound when following a voiced syllable. They also often become voiced following the "-n" sound. And I believe intonation plays a role, as well, as it makes some combinations easier (or harder) to say than others. There are many exceptions, though.

That's been my understanding. I'm surprised, though, that I come across "tori" more often than "dori." In our dojo we use the latter and I was thrown off when reading "tori" in a book once.

Learning Japanese helps a lot when learning the names of techniques and understanding what seems inconsistent like the case with "tori" and "dori."

brUNO 05-31-2009 07:44 AM

Re: tori vs. dori
 
Usually if it follows a word of discription it changes because of pronouciation. This occurs with K & G, T & D, H & B, etc.

Example:
Katame no Kata vs. Waki Gatame
Kiri vs. Kesa giri
Tori vs. Katate dori

Its the same word, it just changes spelling depending on its grammatic function. This is similar to alot of English "exceptions to the rule" in grammar. English probably has many more than japanese.

kokyu 07-13-2009 10:41 AM

Re: tori vs. dori
 
Quote:

Storm Rhode wrote: (Post 229918)
That's been my understanding. I'm surprised, though, that I come across "tori" more often than "dori." In our dojo we use the latter and I was thrown off when reading "tori" in a book once.

Learning Japanese helps a lot when learning the names of techniques and understanding what seems inconsistent like the case with "tori" and "dori."

Many of the current Aikikai publications refer to 'Tori' as the person executing the technique... which makes me wonder about the usage of 'nage', which is still heard in many dojos... was this a recent change?

dojo50 07-24-2009 01:32 AM

Re: tori vs. dori
 
i just want to say i am honor to join this form and i will be looking forward adding my threads from time to time.

dalen7 07-25-2009 11:16 AM

Re: tori vs. dori
 
Quote:

Soon-Kian Phang wrote: (Post 234591)
Many of the current Aikikai publications refer to 'Tori' as the person executing the technique... which makes me wonder about the usage of 'nage', which is still heard in many dojos... was this a recent change?

How I understand its use within our organization it is as follows:

Tori is the receiver of the attack and Uke is the attacker.

Nage [waza] refers to the type of technique, which is throwing.
[i.e. whereas Katame waza would be pinning tech.]

So the tori [person in the attack] would know that it is a Nage [throwing] technique being executed. [though to some point its moot once you know the techniques]

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
Though the technique names already tell you whats being done for the most part, as far as throwing is concerned. [i.e. Shio Nage, Irimi Nage, Kaiten Nage, etc.] The same does not hold true for Katame Waza.

Linda Eskin 07-29-2009 12:09 AM

Re: tori vs. dori
 
I've never heard Tori or Dori at my dojo - it's always Nage (and Uke) when referring to the two partners. Seems the same in books I've read. I wonder if it's a lineage-related dialect? My dojo is part of the California Aikido Association, an Aikikai-affiliated organization.

rob_liberti 07-30-2009 01:48 AM

Re: tori vs. dori
 
What do you call a wrist grab? Some call that katateDORI for instance.

Linda Eskin 07-30-2009 09:18 AM

Re: tori vs. dori
 
Quote:

Rob Liberti wrote: (Post 236067)
What do you call a wrist grab? Some call that katateDORI for instance.

Guessing you meant me, there... :) Still katate-dori.

Grabs are -dori, and throws are -nage. My (very limited) understanding, mostly from the book "In the Dojo" by Dave Lowry, is that uke is from the verb ukeru, meaning to receive (Uke is one who receives) and nage is from the verb nageru, to throw (Nage is the one throws).

A completely wild guess on my part is that there must be a verb like toriru (?) meaning to grab, and Tori would be the one who grabs. Just a slightly different word for the same idea as Nage.

Did I get close? :p

akiy 07-30-2009 09:45 AM

Re: tori vs. dori
 
Quote:

Linda Eskin wrote: (Post 236080)
My (very limited) understanding, mostly from the book "In the Dojo" by Dave Lowry, is that uke is from the verb ukeru, meaning to receive (Uke is one who receives) and nage is from the verb nageru, to throw (Nage is the one throws).

Yes, basically. (As an aside, I am a bit confounded when people "translate" the word "ukemi" to "the art of falling" or apply the term "ukemi" to falls, as the word really doesn't seem to have any connotation of "falling.")
Quote:

A completely wild guess on my part is that there must be a verb like toriru (?) meaning to grab, and Tori would be the one who grabs. Just a slightly different word for the same idea as Nage.
The infinitive verb that the noun "tori" is derived from is "toru" which basically means "to take."

To me, there is a subtle but interesting difference in the terms "nage" and "tori" when applied to the role opposite of uke. "Nage" to me has too much of an emphasis on "throwing" whereas the term "tori" connotes to me more of a sense of "taking" what is actually sensical and available. The same kind of nuance exists in the Yoshinkan term for that role of "shite" which, to me, basically means "the doer" or "the protagonist" (from the use of that term in Noh theatre). I prefer the semantic nuances underlying "tori" and "shite" moreso than "nage," personally.

Just my thoughts,

-- Jun

sorokod 07-31-2009 10:03 AM

Re: tori vs. dori
 
In Morihei Ueshiba's Budo (1938) the doer of the technique is referred to as "shite". Does anyone knows why and when the common practice (Yoshinkan excluded) moved towards nage/tori ?

kokyu 08-04-2009 10:27 AM

Re: tori vs. dori
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 236166)
In Morihei Ueshiba's Budo (1938) the doer of the technique is referred to as "shite". Does anyone knows why and when the common practice (Yoshinkan excluded) moved towards nage/tori ?

I suspect the term 'nage' was introduced by Tohei Sensei, and this was later changed to 'tori'... If I'm not mistaken Yoshinkan preserves an earlier form of Aikido, hence retention of the term 'shite'

Melchizedek 12-25-2009 06:43 AM

Re: tori vs. dori
 
here in Philippines we still use the post manuscript
i.g. Katate tori shiho nage Irimi - tenkan
we are use to d` "tori" grasping term and "nage" for throwing.
we only use dori when the subject is i.g. katadori & ryokatadori
thats from K. Tohei Sensei.

Adam Huss 12-27-2009 01:08 AM

Re: tori vs. dori
 
I've heard there are both American and British versions of romanji and that some of the minor spelling variances come from that.

Carsten Möllering 12-27-2009 05:26 AM

Re: tori vs. dori
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 236166)
In Morihei Ueshiba's Budo (1938) the doer of the technique is referred to as "shite". Does anyone knows why and when the common practice (Yoshinkan excluded) moved towards nage/tori ?

We are doing aikikai aikido an shite / aite are in use in our practice.

Carsten


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