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Bruce Baker 02-27-2002 11:01 AM

Hidden techniques of Aikido
 
I see a lot of posturing about the different types of AIKIDO and the different effectiveness of styles? You all miss the point. Aikido in the synthesis of many arts by O'Sensei. His contribution included the study of many arts, and the final results, for us, was Aikido. Have any of you looked into Pressure Points? Use of Chi/Ki with the positive and negative effects found in Aikido? Or even the use of sounds to draw upon the power of the universe itself? NO? Then you have studied the western way. Once you understand these things, then you will begin to see the secrets O'Sensei left to us in this art! If you want to yell like children immitating what they have seen without understanding why, have fun. If you want to learn, you must study pressure points, Chi/Ki, and the sounds of elements to start on the road O'Sensei began for us?

Chuck.Gordon 02-27-2002 11:27 AM

Re: Hidden techniques of Aikido
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Baker
Aikido in the synthesis of many arts by O'Sensei. His contribution included the study of many arts, and the final results, for us, was Aikido.

Well, no, he didn't study MANY arts, but he did get around a bit. Technically, aikido is mostly Daito Ryu jujutsu with a few bits grafted on here and there.

Have any of you looked into Pressure Points? Use of Chi/Ki with the positive and negative effects found in Aikido? Or even the use of sounds to draw upon the power of the universe itself?

Yes. I have. Pressure point application (kyushojutsu) is highly touted in some circles, but my experience has been that the results are highly variable. The human body is so diverse in structure, that it's simply damn near impossible to say 'This will work on ANYONE' ...

The study of kyusho is integral to most of the older arts, and most folks who study koryu or modern budo get a dose of that along the way. It's a part of any good training regimen, but must be viewed as an adjunct, not a pillar, I believe.

Ki (chi is one of the many Chinese versions, in Japanese -- since we're discussing a Japanese art -- it is almost always 'ki') is another concept highly touted in somce circles, highly doubted in others.

I've done ki training and learned most of the testing, and found it a wonderful paradigm in which to express some concepts that are pretty foreign to the modern western mind. However, like kyushojutsu, the study of ki can supplement and reinforce, but -- to ME -- cn never supplant solid technical knowledge. The secrets lie in the manrta: keiko keiko keiko ... in other words, practice, practice, practice.

Kiai (which has nothing to do with shouting, folks), and kotodama are different critters. I've studied kiaijutsu to some extent and have my opinions, but I think what Bruce is talking about is kotodama. I can't speak to that because I've never pursued it.

I know folks who have and some are convinced, some are skeptical. Looking at it from the outside, it appears to me to be a fascinating construct within which one can explore some very subtle mind-body interactions. Herein, again, I can't say I'd place it as an absolute pillar of aikido, (didn't Shirata say the three pillars were tenkan, irimi and kaiten? But he may have been speaking of something entirely different... )

To me, the secrets lie in the training. I'm not sure pursuit of mastery of the esoterica is the answer at all. Like so many things, you can chase ephemera all day and in the end you've got smoke and mist. I believe that if you go to the dojo and train, day in, day out, stick with it, deal with it, stay resolute, then the secrets will reveal themselves.

How that relates to the topic of this thread, I don't know.

But that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Chuck

Bruce Baker 02-27-2002 11:56 AM

Hidden secrets/ Dear chuck
 
Dear Chuck,

Obviously, you have taken the moral highground with doing your homework.

Do yourself a favor, Go to a Dillman pressure point seminar and tell me you can't knock out someone with pressure points, sound, or KI?

Study these things, do these things ... as I have done and I am doing now ... then tell me if I was smoke and mist?

Our world is so full of impossible things of not many years ago because someone wanted to know why something worked a different way?

Get with the program. Before you comment on something, study it, question it, learn all you can about it, then you can make judgements.

Dillman pressure point, is not the purest of sources, but Master George Dillman is learning from the Okinawan source of Eastern Martial Arts, not the watered down art brought back by American servicemen? Study Chin-Na, Jwing-Ming Yang has a good series of learning for this. When you have disproven all this by doing as much as you can, then you will begin to see what has been hidden.

Most people do a very nice Kata, but don't truly understand what it means? There are no blocks in Kata. They were meant to kill with every move. We don't want our children killing everyone they meet, so guess what?

Aikido does not kill, but what are the hidden meanings? Pressure points.

Do your research, then get back to me.
Until then, stop spreading tall tales.

PeterR 02-27-2002 12:27 PM

Be gentle Chuck

I assume the Bruce Baker here is the same.

http://www.aikidoonline.com/discuss_etiquette.html

Bruce - you are making a few assumptions.

Chuck.Gordon 02-27-2002 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PeterR
Be gentle Chuck

I assume the Bruce Baker here is the same.

Bruce - you are making a few assumptions.

Hey Peter, why aren't you on an airplane?

Well, truth is, he makes some good points, but it was his tone more than his statements that stirred up my dander.

Good aikido is SO hard to define. For some, it's all about ki, and that's fine. Others do kotodama, misogi, chinkon mishin, Zen or whatever. And all that's good. The important thing is that there is no One True Way and anybody who tries to claim there is need so be viewed with some skepticism.

Sigh.

Chuck

Chuck.Gordon 02-27-2002 01:08 PM

Re: Hidden secrets/ Dear chuck
 
Re: Hidden secrets/ Dear chuck

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Baker

Hi Bruce,

>Obviously, you have taken the moral
>highground with doing your homework.

Eh? _Moral_ high ground? No clue what you're talking about.

>Do yourself a favor, Go to a Dillman
>pressure point seminar and tell me you can't
>knock out someone with pressure points,
>sound, or KI?

Never been to a Dillman seminar, but I have trained with one of his teachers, Oyata Seiyu (who I think calls himself Taika these days?). And no, I'm not particularly impressed with pressure point knockouts. They wrok very well on some folks, but they do not work on all people all the time. Period.

That said, in my dojo, we do study and use kyusho. But it's not an end unto itself.

>Study these things, do these things ... as I
>have done and I am doing now ... then tell
>me if I was smoke and mist?

I have. I've been doing budo for almost 30 years now. If it's a concept found in Japanese budo, I've probably poked at it, tried it, played with it, studied it, and usually, I come back to the basics. Train, study, train, study, train, study.

>Get with the program. Before you comment on
>something, study it, question it, learn all
>you can about it, then you can make >judgements.

Program? What program?

I'm not making judgements. You are. You're taking 'the moral high ground' by saying that folks who don't cotton to your ideas of what aikido should be are doing less than the pure aikido. That's both judgemental and arrogant.

I know folks doing great aikido who wouldn't give you a nickel for ki or kotodama. I know folks doing great aikido for whom ki is cornerstone of their training. Want to talk about Ki? A close friend of mine was the late George Simcox, rokudan in the Ki Society and head of the Virginia Ki Society. I maintain close contact today with some of his students. We spent many an hour on the mat together and more talking over dinner or beers. My own teacher trained with Tohei Koichi many years ago as well.

I regularly train with and hang out with folks from Yoshinkan, USAF East (some of your dojo's shihan's folks, by the way) and West regions, from the ASU and more. All of 'em are doing good, valid aikido, some of 'em are doing wonderful aikido and promise to be great aikido teachers some day (some of 'em already are).

As far as sound being a tool, as I said, I've studied kiaijutsu and teach it in my dojo. And it's a useful tool, but it's not the core of the art or the central facet of what we do.

>Dillman pressure point, is not the purest of
>sources, but Master George Dillman is

This is the same George Dillman who used to do Goju Ryu karate, back in the 70s, yes? A student of Peter Urban if I remember correectly. With whom (besides Oyata) has he trained lately? Not being argumentative here, just asking. I knew who he was back then, but haven't kept up with his career at all.

>Study Chin-Na, Jwing-Ming Yang has a good
>series of learning for this.

Whyever for? Japanese budo has more depths than I'll ever be able to plumb fully. I did some Pa Kua and some Kali and some JKD and Tang Soo Do back when I was younger, but over the years, I discovered that I can only devote so much time to training and therefore concentrated on the Japanese budo rather than haring all over the place trying to do a little of this and a little of that.

>When you have disproven all this by doing as
>much as you can, then you will begin to see
>what has been hidden.

I don't have to disprove anything. You can chase these things all you want. I don't care. But please be a little more polite about telling other folks that what they're doing isn't the One True Way. Sheesh. There IS no One True Way.

I don't like ALL aikido (I don't teach aikido by the way, I'm a student of jujutsu and study aikido as an adjunct to my own core curriculum), but I recognize the value of what aikido is and what it offers. And I recognize the value of the viewpoints held by others and try hard to respect them.

>Most people do a very nice Kata, but don't
>truly understand what it means?

Which kata are you talking about? Okinawan empty-hand stuff? I don't even do that kind of kata (but I do practice koryu-style kata for various weapons and empty-hand forms).

Here's an EXCELLENT source for research into the true meanings of Okinawan karate forms:

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/s...kata/index.html

>Aikido does not kill, but what are the
>hidden meanings? Pressure points.

As I said, study of kyusho is fundamental in all Japanese budo. It's part and parcel, but certainly not the apparently mystical gateway to truth some folks would have us believe.

>Do your research, then get back to me.
>Until then, stop spreading tall tales.

Man oh man. No clue what you're on about, but I'm not the one spreading tall tales here.

You appear to have some huge issue with me, and that's fine, though puzzling, but let's try to keep this civil, shall we?

Chuck

PeterR 02-27-2002 01:11 PM

The 5th Kyu Shihan attitude got me too - that and the Dillman glee club (no disrespect to George Dillman intended).

My flight from Quebec City is tomorrow morning followed by three nights in Toronto and then Hemiji via Kansai Airport.

So much to do - so little time.

mle 02-27-2002 06:10 PM

Re: Hidden secrets/ Dear chuck
 

Quote:

Get with the program. Before you comment on something, study it, question it, learn all you can about it, then you can make judgements.
[/b]
Huh. Sounds to me like you are guilty in spades of everything you accuse these invisible people "out here" of.

How bout you tell us how you came to these beliefs?

If you're just here to be condescending and bigoted, expect to be ignored.

mle

Edward 02-27-2002 09:32 PM

Well, it's nice to see that Mr. Baker has discovered the true secret of Aikido. Good luck!

I hope that this thread only represents Mr. Baker's own convictions, not his senseis and dojo. I don't think the mentioned opinions are shared by the Aikikai, and sound quite revolutionary to me.... Not to mention his aggressiveness, which is not quite in the spirit of Aiki....

Not so good......

Bruce Baker 03-01-2002 07:27 AM

Mechanic's of Aikido
 
I am sorry to find three or four particular people who have supposedly conquered the mechanic's of Aikido, achieved dan levels, and are experts in budo? Does that mean they have attained expertise in killing, soldiering, and hiring out as mercenary's too? That is the ultimate goal of learning mechanical aspects of Aikido? To continue learning the shadow of Japanese Budo until they have heaped higher and higher dan ranks until there is no other basis than years of training?

My apologies for the readers interpretation be anything other than thought provoking and an attempt to bring to light other avenues of knowledge that explain many of O'Sensei's observations of enlightenment?

I would hate to tell Higitsuchi Michio Sensei 10th dan in Iwama that the spiritual control of Ki, pressure points and his scrolls from Morihei Ueshiba are so much trite? Would you?

I am a fan of those who seek knowledge without recompense. About the fifth year of my training, I found that almost every teacher who taught martial arts taught what his/ her teacher taught him/her without being able to explain what they were doing, connection of kata to great fighting, or meridian knockout/dangers of pressure point activation?

Once you start ... not extended or years of training ... start to understand pressure points, then you see in Aikido the same knockouts you find in pressure points, without the violence, preserved with mechanical precision that works in its saved form!

Condescend if you wish, question with same mind I did as a beginner, but if your students should strike certain points and knock out another student, can you say you know how to revive a knockout? Can you say you know how to avoid internal organ damage from repitition of certain joints/ pressure points?

I am not so much concerned with ignorance, as a safety aspect that may have cause even O'Sensei periods of illness because his training did not touch on this aspect in his younger years of training?

Put aside your disbelief, and do what all good teachers do, search the world for knowledge.

Arianah 03-01-2002 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Baker
I am sorry to find three or four particular people who have supposedly conquered the mechanic's of Aikido, achieved dan levels, and are experts in budo?
There are no experts in budo. There is always more to learn. I think most people understand that, and if someone claimed to be, s/he should go back to wearing a white belt, because s/he has learned nothing of value.

Quote:

I would hate to tell Higitsuchi Michio Sensei 10th dan in Iwama that the spiritual control of Ki, pressure points and his scrolls from Morihei Ueshiba are so much trite? Would you?
I think a greater insult to your instructors and to your own intelligence would be to blindly follow something just because some shihan does. Take O'Sensei, for instance. He was an extremely eccentric man, who believed in many things that I don't. Does that mean that I don't respect him? No. He probably believed many things that his instructors didn't but it doesn't mean that he was insulting them. I am all for open-mindedness, but forcing your beliefs on others is, in my opinion, obnoxious and one of the most rude things that you could do.

Quote:

Condescend if you wish,
And I wish you would stop condescending. It seems (and please correct me if you feel that I am wrong) that you have done nothing but speak in a tone of disdain since your first post on this forum. Those, like Chuck, who have spoken to you calmly and rationally, you have attacked. Please drop the "I am enlightened, everyone else is waist-high in nonage" act and maybe practice a little bit of that open-mindedness you seek from us. (And yes, I am being b**chy, but I can't hold it in all the time. :D)

Quote:

Put aside your disbelief, and do what all good teachers do, search the world for knowledge.
And do what all good thinkers do, learn what you can, but don't believe everything you learn. That is what one would call "gullible."

Sarah

P.S. You really like question marks, don't you? ;)

jimvance 03-01-2002 08:58 AM

Anyone ever been accosted in a dark parking lot by a dirty whino claiming you lost your faith and you're going to pay? He is waving a copy of the Holy Whatever that he got from the same place he ate last, the whites of his eyes glazed and red. I don't stick around to hear what he has to say, seeing as I didn't want his company and his motive was probably to hit me up for booze money rather than restoring my faith.
I suggest we do the same here. Need I point out the whino?

Jim Vance

Arianah 03-01-2002 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jimvance
Anyone ever been accosted in a dark parking lot by a dirty whino claiming you lost your faith and you're going to pay? He is waving a copy of the Holy Whatever that he got from the same place he ate last, the whites of his eyes glazed and red. I don't stick around to hear what he has to say, seeing as I didn't want his company and his motive was probably to hit me up for booze money rather than restoring my faith.
I suggest we do the same here. Need I point out the whino?

Point taken.

thomson 03-01-2002 10:28 AM

The only thing good I've got out of this thread is the good example that Mr. Gordon is setting. Responding intelligently without malice. Thank You, sir. However the arrogance of Mr. Baker has turned me off to whatever point he is trying to make. :(

Mike

Sid 03-01-2002 12:36 PM

This is a very interesting one.

A couple of guys said that kyusho works well in some people - know having only looked into the pressure point stuff from tai chi chuan, I can say that certain thing will work on all people - for example, a strike to the carotid sinus(St9 for those who know their accupuncture meridians :) ) will knock anyone out - that *is* medically proven.

PeterR 03-05-2002 01:45 AM

Could you quote the study that proved this medically. From a scientific point of view I would find it very interesting - love to see the experimental design.



Quote:

Originally posted by Sid
This is a very interesting one.

A couple of guys said that kyusho works well in some people - know having only looked into the pressure point stuff from tai chi chuan, I can say that certain thing will work on all people - for example, a strike to the carotid sinus(St9 for those who know their accupuncture meridians :) ) will knock anyone out - that *is* medically proven.


Abasan 03-07-2002 04:47 AM

Although I find that this thread is getting to the point of being argumentative, I think Bruce raised an interesting issue.

Quote:

Can you say you know how to avoid internal organ damage from repitition of certain joints/ pressure points?
This is very believable. How many of us truly know what kind of damage we're doing to someone by the constant application of our yonkyo's, nikyos, pins, etc etc? Although the only pressure point stuff i've ever done besides yonkyo has been from Dillman's book (what can I say... the only other source was Montagiue) :rolleyes: , I believe some of my willing partners suffered stomach aches after constant practice on just the forearm pressure points.

What I'm trying to say is that there may be some merits to what Bruce is trying to say. How many of our instructors are well versed enough to counteract any negative side effects from our practice.

Aside from that... how in the world did chuck find a website about 24 fighting chickens? :p

Chuck.Gordon 03-07-2002 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Abasan
I believe some of my willing partners suffered stomach aches after constant practice on just the forearm pressure points.

My bride, Emily, is a certified massage therapist, thus, she winds most days up with extremely fatigued hands and arms. My job is to help restore her strength and flexibility and soothe her aches. The methods I use are a combination of things including Danzan Ryu restorative massage, pressure point manipulation, stretches and joint manipulations from budo -- as well as a few bits I add as I learn and explore what works.

One of the techniques involves 'stripping' the forearm muscles up from wrist toward elbow and stopping at the kyusho for several seconds with direct pressure. This is also a reflection of Travell and Simons' (sp?) trigger point therapy work ...

Far from causing any stomach discomfort, this seems to help the muscles relax, flush lynmphatic wastes, increase circulation and relives both pain and fatigue.

Oddly enough, one thing that DID cause her tummy to rebel was one of those fancy, heated, vibrating, foot spa things. It's a sort of a footbath with nubbly bits to massage your soles whilst the hot water soothes your feet. I love it, but she can only take a few minutes before getting distinctly nauseous ... go figure.

On the other hand, we've both explored 'therepeutic touch, reiki and reflexology and are both quite skeptical ...

One of the key features, I think, is how willing the patient is to allow the stuff to actually work. Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy thing.

What I'm trying to say is that there may be some merits to what Bruce is trying to say. How many of our instructors are well versed enough to counteract any negative side effects from our practice.

I have no problem agreeing that his ideas may have some merit, my objections are to his tone, his willful ignorance of the 'big picture' and a very narrow view of what budo is and can be.

And I got real annoyed when he persisted in calling folks here 'children', as if he were the wise and kind old master and all of us were his acolytes, eager to bask in his teachings. He failed (and I suspect continues to fail) to understand that there are folks here, active and lurking, who have more aikido (and budo) experience and depth than he can really imagine.

Everybody needs a belief system and his is fine for him, but he shouldn't be waving the flag of enlighteneed wisdom before he gets a better idea of what else there is beside his own limited worldview.

IMSNHO 'young warrior's' opinion, of course. I am, BTW only a few years younger than he and have more than 27 years of budo training under my belt ... I kinda LIKE the idea of being a young warrior, but the reality is that I'm a 45-year-old budo bum who's more a crusty old fart than a young warrior full of piss and vinegar.

Aside from that... how in the world did chuck find a website about 24 fighting chickens?

LOL! I've been a fan of Rob's writings for several years. I don't always agree 100 percent, but he is insightful, bold, brutally honest and unabashedly iconoclastic. I like that. And he says a lot of the same things my teacher has taught me over the years, but Sensei was speaking of budo broadly and Rob's stuff is focussed on karate.

There are no secrets. Only hard work and diligent practice.

Chuck

Sid 03-14-2002 12:26 PM

Peter - perhaps my wording wasn't entirely correct on that one.

I did not mean by experiment, as such, but rather as common medical knowledge : in the same way that your heart is known to be a part of the circulatory system, or that gaseous exchnage occurs at the alveoli in the lungs, it isknown that the carotid sinus regulates blood pressure (this may be an over simplification given to me by the doctors I asked about this).

If you are interested, I suggest you look in Grant's Atlas of the Human body - the medical textbook used by doctors in university.

Sid

Bruce Baker 03-20-2002 10:26 AM

Ki/ Chi ... tone of writing?
 
Sorry guys and girls if you got the impression of my tone of writing being overbearing?

I have a variety of pains, noises from tinitus, and constant depression of Meniere's disease to deal with while I try to live a normal life, so excuse me if my writing is a bit terse? Please, please, please .....

Look at it like this. Try turning up the television full blast, the radio full blast, with a hangover, and tell me if you can write anything after four or five days of noise and pain like a hangover? No pity ... just something that I have to deal with ... even in Aikido practice.

Sometimes I think it would be easier to do Aikido with only one arm and one leg? Just a thought ... no implications intended?

Clarification of "get with the program."

If you study any ... ANY martial arts, it is your obligation to explore the possibilities of other arts and their defense/offensive capabilities even if you do not incorporate them into your art.

If you do not believe this to be true in your life long pursuit, then at least consider the world to be a big place with many interesting things to be seen and learned? That is all I wish you to see?

If you find explanations for techniques and logical, scientific explanation that applies more than 99% of the time, I would say that the technique and its use if valid, wouldn't you?

FYI ... my interest in MA was never to become a master, or a black belt. It was to understand the mystery, the secrets of its magic in a clear scientific manner while keeping them in my back pocket for a rainy day? The Meniere's doesn't help either, but somehow I haven't hurt or damaged anyone in practice?

I am sorry if hurt anyones pride or feelings, but I think we could have a better Aikido community that won't get left behind if we study what Georger Dillman, and Jwing Ming Yang's YMAA is doing? If explains a lot of the mystery of what O'Sensei was doing.

Did you ever see the picture of O'Sensei with his hands outstretch to a large tree? What was he doing? It was a Ki exercise ... Hint, hint!

How about we just read this and laugh a bit?
Thanks.

Chuck.Gordon 03-20-2002 12:40 PM

Re: Ki/ Chi ... tone of writing?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Baker
Sorry guys and girls if you got the impression of my tone of writing being overbearing?

Bruce, I'd intended just to ignore you, but in later posts, I see that you toned down somewhat. I think we have some common ground for discussion, but you must understand that you are at best amongst peers and at worst, a relative beginner, speaking in a forum in which there are folks who have as much time on the mat as you have lived.

I know you believe you've found the secret of the ages, but you must understand also, some of us have explored the very avenue you are now and we've found it lacking.

If you want to learn more about Dillman and his art than you probably ever wanted to know, go visit www.e-budo.com (another martial arts forum, similar to this one, where you'll find the likes of Meik Skoss, Dave Lowry, Ellis Amdur and others of unquestionable credential and impeccable research. There's a lot of info there on many sujects, but I'd advise you to read deeply first, then post carefully. Those folks aren't quite as 'aiki' and gentle as people here.

I have a variety of pains, noises from tinitus, and constant depression of Meniere's disease to deal with while I try to live a

I feel your pain, man. I truly do. I was diagnosed with Meniere's several years ago myself. It is now controlled largely by diet (I restrict caffeine and chocolate, use very little salt and abstain from aspartame altogether).

I don't know how severe your case is, but I know about the tinnitus (I use a noise machine at night to help mask it so I can sleep), I know about the vertigo (my doc said that I shouldn't be standing much less able to walk a straight line and do budo). I know about the disease.

It is no excuse for abrasive behavior.

And I do, in large part, lead a pretty ordinary life. I go to work, I go to the dojo, I enjoy myself and take care of my family. I hike and bicycle and train hard. I refuse to let the condition control me ...

If you study any ... ANY martial arts, it is your obligation to explore the possibilities of other arts and their defense/offensive capabilities even if you do not incorporate them into your art.

I cannot disagree with that statement. If you've paid attention, you should have seen folks here who have years of experience in other martial arts. While there are some younger folks here, some beginners, there are others who have, indeed, been around the budo block a few times.

My own martial resume includes a fair amount of time spent in karate (Okinawan and Japanese branches), Escrima, Tang Soo Do, etc, etc. I've spent 27 years on the mat, and have done my research off the mat as well.

You came across as a dispenser of great wisdom and discounted with very little apparent consideration the thoughts and statements of other folks here -- and that, without knowing really to whom you were speaking.

Hold your beliefs if you will, be prepared to discuss them openly and frankly, but do so with respect and the ability to see beyond the world you know and are comfortable in.

If you find explanations for techniques and logical, scientific explanation that applies more than 99% of the time, I would say that the technique and its use if valid, wouldn't you?

I suppose we must define 'scientific' ... from much of the presure point research that _I_ have seen, there's little actual scientific evidence to support the claims some folks are making.

FYI ... my interest in MA was never to become a master, or a black belt. It was to

Nor mine, once I got past about age 22 or so. I realized that the goal was nothing at all, but the journey was everything.

I am sorry if hurt anyones pride or feelings, but I think we could have a better

Bruce, I doubt seriously that you hurt anyone's feelings or pride. You irritated some folks, but that's a long shake from hurting feelings ...

Aikido community that won't get left behind if we study what Georger Dillman, and Jwing Ming Yang's YMAA is doing? If explains a lot of the mystery of what O'Sensei was doing.

All in its own time and place. If you want to study Dillman's method, fine. Do so. But don't expect folks to whom their aikido is as mysterious, magical and enlightening to agree with statements that their teachers and their teachers' teachers are wrong -- and that, Bruce, is in fact what you have been saying.

Did you ever see the picture of O'Sensei with his hands outstretch to a large tree? What was he doing? It was a Ki exercise ... Hint, hint!

Okay, I'll bite. Hint, hint, what? I've done aiki taiso and ki exercises for years and have trained many times with some very good Ki Society folks. Everything is a ki exercise if you do it correctly ...

How about we just read this and laugh a bit?
Thanks.


Fine by me. But I would advise you, as you have enjoined us -- Do your research. Don't take everything that's handed to you at face value. Talk to folks who've done aikido for decades and decades and who have also cross-trained. Talk to folks who have been behind the alleged 'bamboo curtain' and back.

There's lots of great info and really deep, truly scientific, knowledgeable, academic research available. Go find it and then we can discuss your belief system and how it interrelates with your aikido training.

Best to you and a blessing and prayer for your condition.

Chuck

Bruce Baker 03-23-2002 06:09 PM

Kyusho
 
There is a disparity of doing Martial Arts, and one who researches Martial Arts.

The practitioners of Aikido, if they train hard, use insight, and apply some skills from other arts have a completely comfortable world that will work well for a lifetime. This could also be a shortcoming?

I know whenever I see another style of martial art, I say, how does that work? Then I find out. Whether it is book, video, or personally talking to teachers and practitioners, I find out. Then, I try to find out how well what I know will work or not against it?

After almost thirty years of fixing mechanical and structural problems in boats and motors, I want to know the mechanical and underlying workings of most things. Take it apart, put it together, take it apart, put it together ... is that how it works!



If we are respectful of the synthesis of martial arts, as every nation steals what works, or invents new ways to overcome fighters of other nations, then no one nation ever entirely invents its own fighting methods, they are created over time and trial?

The big picture is .... some nations have excellent fighting methods, and ways to train to acquire them. China and Japan are two of them, but in ten thousand years of known history, war, and fighting, neither one has totally hidden a successful fighting method from the other for any length of time.

Hence, theivery, immitation, and parallel developements in fighting arts have happened around the world. I find it great that we are so priviledged to have the Japanese be our friends and teach us their way of life, and martial arts, but there are European, African, and even Native American fighting methods that resemble many of the Asian arts, if not in form, in execution and results.

I am so tired of reading and researching that I wish I could get one of those foot massagers for my whole body! OH, BABY!!

So, let's keep an open mind when studying Aikido? It tooks thousands of years of fighting, killing, and developement of martial arts before one man was able to give us a safer art to practice, but still have some bite with history hidden in its forms? Because if you do them properly, in the correct form, they translate in any other martial art as valid form, with a multitude of openings for other techniques.

Sometimes we are even on the exact pressure points, the size of a quarter, that could be used but are not. It is an available option, if you want to research and find how to use them, not use them, or simply understand the what many asian masters hand down to soke dai in their master notes? Your option? Your choice?

By the way, when O'Sensei was extending Ki to the tree, that is a basic healing exercise of exchanging energy within nature by the balance of Ki flow through the tree to strengthen the tree and human being. Found it in two or three books? Read, you might find something new!

What is really scary? O'Sensei's writings are starting to make sense ....
It's time to start drinking again, two beers a year ain't enough!

Chuck.Gordon 04-01-2002 07:11 AM

Re: Kyusho
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Baker
There is a disparity of doing Martial Arts, and one who researches Martial Arts.

Just curious. Are you implying that I don't 'do' martial arts?

Chuck

Erik 04-01-2002 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LOEP
There's lots of great info and really deep, truly scientific, knowledgeable, academic research available. Go find it and then we can discuss your belief system and how it interrelates with your aikido training.
Chuck, I'm unaware of any academic or scientific research proving, or even effectively discussing many of the topics in question. I'm not saying it hasn't been done, just that I've never stumbled upon it. If you could point me in the direction of some I'd be thrilled. Hell, I can't even find any decent studies supporting acupuncture.

A general comment on research. If I go to a psychic and the psychic seems to be able to tell things about me I may well be impressed. If the psychic tells me he speaks to an Incan god who gives him guidance it may be true or it may not be but there are other possibilities:

1. He reads people well. Very perceptive.
2. Generalities can be applied to most people.
3. When I made the appointment he researched me on the internet.
4. Is a master at drawing people out.
5. Is psychic.
6. Is a complete fraud.
7. I only noticed the hits and not the misses.
8. A bunch of things I have not even thought of.

It's also true that just because something seems to work, it doesn't mean it actually worked. It's why science gets so worked up about controlled environments, double blind studies and statistics. It's also why so many so-called paranormal types fail under those circumstances.

Bringing this back to Dillman. He may be able to knock people out, or he may not be able to knock people out. If he can, and it would take a lot more than seeing him at a seminar to prove it, then the question becomes how does he do it? I think you would have to eliminate a ton of possibilities before you got to ki and energy meridians as how he's doing it. He might say that's why and he may even believe it's why but that don't make it why.

Bruce Baker 04-02-2002 06:50 AM

Kyusho ...more places to look
 
Hi guys,

Look up YMAA publications for Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming. His writings get pretty ambiguous, but he covers a variety of Qi-Gong, Tai-chi, Chin-na, and some other chinese subjects.

If you look at Dillmans bibliography, he includes Dr. Yang, along with other medical research including Accupressure and Accupuncture with some Chinese medical references. Let alone, Karate, Jujitsu/ including Wally Jay who takes some Aikido for his studies, and Aikido are mentioned in the references.

There are a number of different schools that list themselves under either Dillman's Ryukyu or Dim-mak as courses of study. They all seem to acknowledge each other in the last ten years. Since Dillman has been decifering his notes from Hohan Soken, one of the master teachers from Okinawa, other arts with so called advanced knockouts are finally talking to an American. Hohan Soken was Dillmans first television moment of fame for "Ripley's believe it or not" ... his teacher, Hohan Soken was the oldest active fulltime teacher of martial arts at eighty something in the 1970s.

The other road ...
Because My Meniere's is so advanced, over thirty years undiagnosed, I was looking to add to my early 1970s knowledge of yoga, meditation and find an advanced healing beyond little pills/rest. That, with curiosity of why half the explanations of blocks in fighting that did not work with injuring yourself as badly as your opponent? It only takes three times to remove the protection fluid of a pressure point. Try it. Thump a single point three times and see if the third time is protected as the first two? Injury, or passing pain?

Now you have the secret of thumping the Atlas muscled giants, hit them three times in the same point like grandma's old phrase "...the third time's the charm!"

Hence my interest in pressure points is internal injury/ sometimes knockouts, and healing with activation of same. Stumbling onto some of the illness's of O'Sensei may or may not be related to improper training, but then again, O'Sensei did practice healing through sounds and prayer too?

My Buddy, who teaches self defense for military/ FBI started me with Chin-na, the chinese fighting with pressure point, muscle manipulation, and Chi exchange. I was no less skeptical about these things, until physically/medically proven evidence appeared over and over again.

The cool thing about living in this modern age, is not only the openness to prove pressure points work, but how many professionals in the medical field want to find how and why they work? It is an exciting time to debunk the "it just doesn't work theory", which I had held with as did Ginchin Funakoshi, the father of Karate wrote in his book ... until saw it/ tried/ studied it ... with the proper explanations along with implimentation, available in written, researched, and practiced forms

THERE ARE SAFETY CONCERNS WITH PRESSURE POINTS AS THERE ARE FOR SAFE AIKIDO. I get in trouble with these guys because I bring up safety concerns, and I get razed with Aikido guys because I bring up pressure points. If that is luvin' ... I do with a little less luvin'.

The only thing that frightens people doing pressure points, is Aikido.

Go figure?

If we incorporate pressure points into the studies after first kyu. and healing into the kyu studies ... maybe we could live to be one hundred years old and still do Aikido?

Thank you all ... for your insight, outsight, and thoughts. Sorry if I ramble on.
Address personal Email to BrucBaker@aol.com (research references/ books)


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