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-   -   Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009 (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15786)

gabe 02-19-2009 11:14 AM

Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009
 
Just a quick note to let everyone know that Endo Shihan will be in Montreal for 3 days (during the week) right before his weekend seminar in Toronto. It's a great chance to get 6 days of continuous training with Endo Shihan.

For more info on the Montreal Event:

http://aikidomontreal.com/events

And the Toronto One:

http://www.nakaima.ca/news.html

Hope to see you on the mat!
gabe.

Nick P. 02-19-2009 04:28 PM

Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009
 
Excellent, I am looking forward to this one indeed.

ramenboy 02-20-2009 10:25 AM

Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009
 
gabe,

haven't been up there to see you guys and endo sensei for a couple of years!

hope to make it this year....

Nick P. 04-08-2009 06:51 AM

Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009
 
Wow. Class #1 was last night and what a treat Endo Sensei is to have teaching a seminar. A big thanks to the orgranizers for a job well done.

If you are even considering attending any of his seminars I highly encourage you to make it happen; something for everyone. Powerful yet supple and flowing, strict (read below) yet jovial and approachable, and always asking "why"?

What we learned last night
-Be on time
-Wear flip-flops before getting on the mat
-Dont be late, but if you are, dont sit seiza off the mat as thats wear said flip-flops are, and that's dirty. Stand.
-During class, pay attention
-Dont get squished when lining up as your rei wont be full
-Last rei of the practice, dont wait for him to begin his bow to begin yours

Most of the above points I knew, and managed to execute, but the last two werent so obvious to me. A reminder that not everything is done the same way everywhere.

Nick P. 04-08-2009 11:02 AM

Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009
 
...AND, for the love of all that is holy, turn you cell phone off!

Someone had left it in the bag at the back of the room, and it began to ring. Sensei addressed this point as well.

NagaBaba 04-09-2009 01:00 PM

Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009
 
So yesterday I went to Endo sensei seminar. It was nice to see him after 15 years later. During more then 2 hours he presented only different exercises for connection. Not even single aikido technique. The class was structured like that: 15 minutes of explanations, 3 minutes of practice, again 15 minutes explanations 2 minutes of practice...etc.
We were not allowed to grip, the only contact was by touching very lightly. That was supposed to create and maintain famous connection. Sensei said he is only interested in that kind of practice.

Most folks were completely lost, trying imitating dancing movements and running around tori without much sens. Uke were overreacting and were much too cooperative.

Even in such 'favorable' conditions it was impossible to practice as there were no clear goals of practice established. Also, most of ppl practiced it first time, only few were familiar. However sensei didn't present 'user friendly' approach to his method, he was jumping from one concept to another, once he even mentioned street application!!!!! I was horrified, how anybody could do such association with the exercises (not martial techniques) that were presented!

Everybody was happily dancing around without any martial principles being respected.

I don't think what we did has something common with aikido.And stupid me, I brought my weapons :(

Nick P. 04-09-2009 01:40 PM

Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009
 
So, you coming again tonight? It would be nice to meet you, who knows, we might have trained together last night....

*edit* look for the kanji seen at left on both my jacket and hakama.

JO 04-09-2009 08:03 PM

Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009
 
Hey Szczepan,

I'm curious how the light touch training was presented. I find that the maintaining connection aspect is often overlooked. I once had Harvey Konigsberg teach an exercise where uke was asked to just barely touch and nage had to create the connection to move him (Harvey scolded me for following his movements and then went on to move me in such a way that made it impossible for me to let go of him). I found this type of connection very hard to establish, and event though it's been a couple of years, I still think a lot about that exercise. Probably learned more from it than from any of the "aikido techniques" we did that day. Of course, such an exercise is useless if uke follows nage of his own free will.

NagaBaba 04-09-2009 08:04 PM

Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009
 
Quote:

Nick Pittson wrote: (Post 228027)
So, you coming again tonight? It would be nice to meet you, who knows, we might have trained together last night....

*edit* look for the kanji seen at left on both my jacket and hakama.

Sorry, I don't have so much time to waiste. :sorry: May be we can meet at the other, this time AIKIDO seminar :D

NagaBaba 04-09-2009 08:12 PM

Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009
 
Quote:

Jonathan Olson wrote: (Post 228051)
Hey Szczepan,

I'm curious how the light touch training was presented. I find that the maintaining connection aspect is often overlooked. I once had Harvey Konigsberg teach an exercise where uke was asked to just barely touch and nage had to create the connection to move him (Harvey scolded me for following his movements and then went on to move me in such a way that made it impossible for me to let go of him). I found this type of connection very hard to establish, and event though it's been a couple of years, I still think a lot about that exercise. Probably learned more from it than from any of the "aikido techniques" we did that day. Of course, such an exercise is useless if uke follows nage of his own free will.

I agree that connection aspect is overlloked. Such exercises can be done efficienlty, if they are immediatly followed by the applications of this concept in actual techniques. Otherwise, it is as a teaching how to swimm in empty pool.;)
I'll show you 'light touch training ' next time we meet.May be at May seminar?

JO 04-09-2009 08:18 PM

Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009
 
I hope to make it to the May seminar, but things are a little out of my control. Elisabeth is at risk for preterm labor and has to stay on rest. I have to get a babysitter to help her with the kids just to go to train here in Québec. I barely manage one class a week :(
However, I plan to be at the Saturday class at Aikido de la Montagne this weekend as I will be in Montreal for Easter.

Carsten Möllering 04-10-2009 01:25 PM

Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009
 
Hi

Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 228053)
During more then 2 hours he presented only different exercises for connection. Not even single aikido technique.

Yes, his seminars are known for that. And people like me visit his classes exactly for that reason.
He expects his scholars to practice kata or techniques at home in their dojo.
During his seminars he teaches the movements that help to do aikido techniques the way he thinks they shoul be practiced.

Quote:

The class was structured like that: 15 minutes of explanations, 3 minutes of practice, again 15 minutes explanations 2 minutes of practice...etc.
grin So folks weren't familiar with his way of doing Aikido? He had to explain a lot?
And yes: He is talking a lot. Even if it's not 15 Minutes. Baut again an aspect we search for when attending his classes.
But usually you have a lot of time to really practice too.

Quote:

We were not allowed to grip, the only contact was by touching very lightly. That was supposed to create and maintain famous connection. Sensei said he is only interested in that kind of practice.
Yes again. I'm trying his way of doing Aikido for about two and a half year now. Endo together with Christian Tissier is the shihan of our aikikai organization here in Germany.

What you get out of this way of practicing over the time seems sometimes to be really miraculous. The poin is: Youre technique doesn't rely on the contact, the grip, uke gives you. nage himself creates the contact and leads uke the way he want's to.
I can't really describe this in english. But I experienced over the time, that those funny things Endo teaches iconsiderably increase the efficacy of techniques.

Try: katate dori shiho nage omote.Does it work, if uke doesn't grab you and just touches your wrist with his palm? (soto kaiten nage ...)

The other way round: As nage, do you have to grip uke to move him/her? To lead uke just by atari and not by gripping helps a lot. It works. Better!

Quote:

Most folks were completely lost, trying imitating dancing movements and running around tori without much sens. Uke were overreacting and were much too cooperative.
Not familiar with his style of working ...

Quote:

Even in such 'favorable' conditions it was impossible to practice as there were no clear goals of practice established.
That sounds strange to me: Normaly he is very very precice in esplaining, what is to learn, how to practice, whatfor to train this or that. Very precise!
He is teaching a very clear system. An he is teaching it systematically. Each seminar has a clear structure from beginning to the end.
Normaly it ends with applying the contact-exercises to normal aikido techniques.

Also, most of ppl practiced it first time, only few were familiar.[/quote]Ah as I thought.
Was it an open seminar or a yudansha seminar? There is a difference sometimes.

Quote:

However sensei didn't present 'user friendly' approach to his method,
I think, he expects people to be a little prepared when they come to train with him.

Quote:

he was jumping from one concept to another, once he even mentioned street application!!!!! I was horrified, how anybody could do such association with the exercises (not martial techniques) that were presented!
Those exercises are exercises. Nothing more, nothing less. But they help, to get to learn how to control an attacker much more easy.

But to experience that you have to try his way and train. I'm sorry that there wheren't enough partners to show how it works.
You don't have to like his aikido but you would have sensed why he can talk about budo.

Butttttt:
Did he say "street application"?
Or did he say "outside the dojo"???
Please remember.

He often speeks about Aikido "outside the dojo" and the doesn't mean selfdefence, but means unterstanding and living Aikido as dao.
I have him never heard talking about street application but very often about aikido as dao. Outside the dojo.

Quote:

Everybody was happily dancing around without any martial principles being respected.
Did he show atemi?

Quote:

I don't think what we did has something common with aikido.And stupid me, I brought my weapons
At the first seminar I brought my weapons too. It was like a tatoo on my forehead: "I'm a newbie". Never did it again.

I was very disappointed that first weekend. Used the same words you do. Couldn't understand why and what my teacher learned from him.

But I know it by now.

Do you like the Aikido of Yamaguchi?

Carsten

Nick P. 04-10-2009 02:52 PM

Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009
 
Lots of specific techniques last night...
ikkyo and nikkyo from shomenuchi, ushiro waza and kosa-dori (both with uke pushing or pulling). But at no point did he actually say "This is how shomenuchi ikkyo must be done."

Carsten beat me to the lengthy reply, and did so with great accuracy both in general and in this case in particular.

I dont go to seminars to see and be taught the nuts and bolts of techniques. I go to seminars to see and feel and hear what principles the teacher is exploring that can (or cannot, to be fair) be brought to my own practice, and that my practice is up to me to take responsibility for, as Endo Sensei pointed out last night.

To be clear, this is probably the first seminar that I have attended where I really had no expectations going in, and perhaps due to that I was more open to the possibilities presented over the three classes. Oddly, Endo Sensei did say that being open to all possibilities was overall a good thing, and not just in one's keiko.

Being open....a novel concept for any aikido student :D

Gregory Adams 04-17-2009 12:56 PM

Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009
 
The Endo seminar was great!!!! Anyone that didn't like it, would probably not have liked O Sensei's classes very much either. My instructor told me that O Sensei would talk a lot and no one minded much because it was all about the message - not the technique. Those that do not appreciate a seminar like this probably have a fighting mind; something that has no place in true Aiki.

NagaBaba 04-17-2009 01:12 PM

Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009
 
Quote:

Gregory Adams wrote: (Post 228498)
The Endo seminar was great!!!! Anyone that didn't like it, would probably not have liked O Sensei's classes very much either. My instructor told me that O Sensei would talk a lot and no one minded much because it was all about the message - not the technique. Those that do not appreciate a seminar like this probably have a fighting mind; something that has no place in true Aiki.

I think you misunderstanding Budo spirit with fighting spirit.O sensei could talk a lot, however when he presented the techniques, it was very clear, that martial principles were present in every moment. It was not a case in this seminar.

Carsten Möllering 04-17-2009 02:47 PM

Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 228499)
I think you misunderstanding Budo spirit with fighting spirit.O sensei could talk a lot, however when he presented the techniques, it was very clear, that martial principles were present in every moment. It was not a case in this seminar.

Hm
I understood you attended one two hours class of that seminar?
I understood that you didn't train with Endo for about 15 years?
I understood that you didn't have an idea of the goals of the exercises you practiced?
I understood you didn't work with nage and uke who were familiar with those exercises and there goals?
I understood uke on the contrary were overreacting and were much too cooperative.
I understood the long explanations didn't tell you something?
I understood you still have to grip to handel your partner/attacker?

Hey, come on.

Is Matthias Claudius known in the US? He did a famous german evening song I have to think of. One verse of it:

Do you see the moon up there?
You can only see half of it,
all the same, it is round and beautiful.
The same goes for many things
that we laugh at without hesitation,
just because our eyes don't see them.

Thank you for your questions!

Carsten

Nick P. 04-17-2009 07:47 PM

Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009
 
Now hold on.

I loved the seminar. I am sure not everyone did. That is ok too.

I firmly believe that what I learned from Endo Sensei were the following two key things:
1 - I can, and did and have since, applied the concepts and excersises to my martial-way of training. Absolutely. And the martial component has been amplified (and I thought what I did was fairly martial to begin with).
2 - There are as many different views of what Aikido should and should not be as there different deshi of O-Sensei.

I believe martial principles were being explored in a different, complementary manner than in a classic fashion. Call it 3/4 exploring different ways of getting to the same destination (awase, kuzushi, etc) and 1/4 of the seminar applying them in a martial way which was up to you, the student, to take responsibility for.

I do believe however that if you walked into that room with a closed mind, you got the results you were expecting to get (see this topic for a good example of this concept).

One should never, ever blindly accept what is being taught as gospel, by any teacher, but you should always ask yourself what you can learn from them, as there is always something to be learned.

Sometimes you just have to stop fighting it and let that learning come to you. It's ok, you wont melt, and it wont erode what you think your aikido should be....unless you cling to that image so desperately and blindly that, in that case, maybe a little erosion which prompts you to ask yourself some questions is likely not a bad thing.

In the meantime, I found myself looking at flights for Paris and Vienna later this year...

DanielR 04-17-2009 08:41 PM

Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009
 
Hi Nick,

Along with flights for Paris and Vienna, may I also recommend looking at flights to Seattle around June 5-7 (Frank Ostoff Sensei) and again to Seattle sometime in October for Jan Nevelius Sensei's week-long visit there (the dates haven't been announced yet, this will be hosted by Aikido Seattle).

Best wishes,
Daniel

Charles Hill 04-18-2009 06:28 PM

Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009
 
Hi,

Anyone aware of Szczepan's history of posts and of Endo Shihan's teaching and practicing style could have predicted the result that seems to have happened.

Szczepan,

I highly recommend that you more thoroughly check out an instructor before you invest your valuable time, effort and money on a seminar. For example, you could have spent 30 minutes (or less) looking at Seishiro Endo clips on youtube and probably would have come to the same conclusion.

Charles

Ron Tisdale 04-20-2009 10:47 AM

Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009
 
Well, at least Mr S. was open-minded enough to go to a seminar when he knew it would be a different style and approach than the one he favored. And honest enough to say what he really thought.

Personally, I applaud him for that, whether or not I agree with his opinion (frankly I don't have enough experience on this particular teacher to take a position).

Best,
Ron (Hey Charles, hope all is well)

Russ Q 04-20-2009 01:23 PM

Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009
 
Charles' advice is good....that being said I value Mr. S's opinion as he is amazingly consistent...and almost always (whether I agree with him or not) is good for a chuckle.

Cheers,

Russ

NagaBaba 04-20-2009 08:45 PM

Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009
 
Quote:

Charles Hill wrote: (Post 228544)
Hi,

Anyone aware of Szczepan's history of posts and of Endo Shihan's teaching and practicing style could have predicted the result that seems to have happened.

Szczepan,

I highly recommend that you more thoroughly check out an instructor before you invest your valuable time, effort and money on a seminar. For example, you could have spent 30 minutes (or less) looking at Seishiro Endo clips on youtube and probably would have come to the same conclusion.

Charles

Hi Charles,
It is true that in certain moment of aikido development you, by simply looking at someone, exactly know his level of understanding of aikido.
However, at this level you don't learn in the same way as beginner by simply imitating teacher movements - rather, you are 'feeling his spirit' - I don't know how to describe it better.....hmhm........... like ' by induction', without touching him........... because your senses are very sensitive as a result of many years of training.

So sometimes, even if I normally don't practice in particular way, I like to go for some strange ‘aikido style' training, if the instructor has a good level.

The concepts that Endo Sensei is teaching are very difficult. You must have not only capacity of demonstrating it, but what is more important, you must have very strong, modern, step by step pedagogical approach if you want to teach it efficiently.

I believe that Endo sensei developed very high level of understanding of aikido, but he doesn't know how to teach it efficiently. He is simply coping Yamaguchi sensei teaching. In the present way, such approach fails and is useless. I've been observing this style of aikido since many years, and presently don't have any hope for better future for it.
They should change the name (as K.Tohei did many years ago), they don't teach aikido anymore.

NagaBaba 04-20-2009 08:57 PM

Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009
 
Quote:

Nick Pittson wrote: (Post 228518)
I do believe however that if you walked into that room with a closed mind, you got the results you were expecting to get ..

Hi Nick,
One day Chiba sensei wrote something like that: one must know where are the roots and where are the leafs.This way you will know where are you, and who are you.
It has nothing to do with closed mind, on contrary, I see very clearly what the instructors are trying to teach. But sometimes there is no hope for them.

raul rodrigo 04-20-2009 09:35 PM

Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009
 
There is no hope for Endo shihan? Really? Boy, I'd hate to think what that implies for the rest of us.

R

Carsten Möllering 04-21-2009 12:09 AM

Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009
 
Hi,
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 228631)
I believe that Endo sensei developed very high level of understanding of aikido, but he doesn't know how to teach it efficiently.

I haven't attended the seminar but instaed I know:

You can find everything you did in that two hour class on one of the three basic DVDs (one of them shows his kihon waza) and on one of his Seminar DVDs.
With explanations, preparatory exercises, alternatives, ways to techniques, showing common mistakes or difficulties and and and.

One of the things his scholars like is his precices and efficient way of teaching.

Shouldn't call it aikido anymore ...?
Do you know Endo's technique, his kihon waza?
Have you ever seen a dan-examination held by Endo?

May I ask which style of Aikido you are doing?

Carsten


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