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Buck 01-14-2009 07:42 AM

Pros and Cons of Video
 
After I read "Seeing yourself how others see you - Videotaping yourself " thread I thought this might be a good topic or expansive one on the uses of video as a part of training.

How has watching videos of others (in your dojo, or the likes of O'Sensei) helps or hurts. What to avoid, the pitfalls, what you don't like, etc. and how to get the benefits, the pros, what you do like etc.

dalen7 01-14-2009 08:21 AM

Re: Pros and Cons of Video
 
Quote:

Philip Burgess wrote: (Post 223510)
After I read "Seeing yourself how others see you - Videotaping yourself " thread I thought this might be a good topic or expansive one on the uses of video as a part of training.

How has watching videos of others (in your dojo, or the likes of O'Sensei) helps or hurts. What to avoid, the pitfalls, what you don't like, etc. and how to get the benefits, the pros, what you do like etc.

Well, as I pointed out in the thread I started...
A video watching yourself can be quite eye opening.
(It can help you catch exactly what it is you feel is wrong, but can pin point.) Of course, having the correct method being demonstrated is a must. ;)

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
Im not limited to just video...take whatever you need to get the job one. ;)
I use Aikido 3D, watch videos of others on YouTube...get written tips here...as well as going to practice - but there's nothing like actually seeing what it is that I am doing to top it all off. :D

tuturuhan 01-14-2009 10:46 AM

Re: Pros and Cons of Video
 
The Form you Learn

The “form” shapes you. It presses you to work your muscles and sinews. It expands your brain into regions that you would not ordinarily take yourself.

Yet, it takes daily discipline. To submit oneself to the form’s rigors one must become rigorous.

Absorbing, grasping and manipulating can only be done in the “usage” of the form. Speed, timing and rhythm are “variable” against an opponent. As such, the form is a depository as well as a prison.

As such, it's not what you currently see in the "mirror". This is the trap. It is the "form", of the teacher, the method, the philosophy that you aspire to become. When you have done so, this is the beginning of truly "seeing yourself".

dalen7 01-14-2009 11:04 AM

Re: Pros and Cons of Video
 
Quote:

Joseph Arriola wrote: (Post 223521)

As such, it's not what you currently see in the "mirror". This is the trap. It is the "form", of the teacher, the method, the philosophy that you aspire to become. When you have done so, this is the beginning of truly "seeing yourself".

While I, like the next guy, love swirling my mind in philosophy - at the end of the day sometimes people want a certain tangible result. (yes this statement can be taken and spun into a philosophical statement of the hows and whys one should go past this and that... ;)

But there are many levels and aspects to everything in life.

In real world terminology - give me the video and let me learn!
And while Im at it, I will continue to seek that which is more spiritual. :D

Peace

dAlen

tuturuhan 01-14-2009 11:19 AM

Re: Pros and Cons of Video
 
Quote:

Dalen Johnson wrote: (Post 223523)
But there are many levels and aspects to everything in life.

In real world terminology - give me the video and let me learn!
And while Im at it, I will continue to seek that which is more spiritual. :D

Peace

dAlen

dAlen,

As requested enclosed is a video of randori: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Caqti...e=channel_page

Philosophy is the intent hidden in the "results" of the actions. The knife/sword quickly brings "real" self defense to the fore.

dalen7 01-14-2009 11:27 AM

Re: Pros and Cons of Video
 
Quote:

Joseph Arriola wrote: (Post 223528)
dAlen,

As requested enclosed is a video of randori: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Caqti...e=channel_page

Philosophy is the intent hidden in the "results" of the actions. The knife/sword quickly brings "real" self defense to the fore.

Thanks for the link...I meant give me the video I have of myself so I can learn what Im doing...which I cant see as Im not outside my body. :)

My point was simply this...
Some people are not ready for the philosophy. Thats all.
Or if they are, there are different aspects that they are trying to view Aikido from. :)

Ill take a look at your video now. :)

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
Im sure we are saying something similar - but its way to easy to get lost in words.

Walter Martindale 01-14-2009 11:31 AM

Re: Pros and Cons of Video
 
Video of one's own performance can assist in becoming aware of body movement.
It is possible to learn various movements simply through observing and imitating, and research has shown that this "monkey see monkey do" form of learning is actually very powerful - the researchers call it "intrinsic learning".
Video without accompanying commentary, of "elite" performance shown alongside video of "my" performance (or whomever the learner is) can be used to help the learner become aware of where his or her movements do not match the movements of the "elite" performer.
Because the "elite" performer and the learner are different people, their movements will always be different, but one should always assume that the learner is trying to do "correctly" or "well" whatever it is they're learning - i.e., nobody wants to do poorly, do they?
Video can help the person learning figure out where they vary from what they think they're doing, and can speed up the process of having them learn to do what they're trying to do, and also to develop more kinesthetic awareness (awareness of where their bits and pieces are in space, in relation to others, and what they're doing).
When I video athletes for coaching purposes, I first show it through for them without comment, at live speed.
Then rewind and ask what they see.
Then rewind and play at slow speed and ask what they see.
Then rewind and add my own commentary, usually confirming what they say and then adding what I think they can do to improve (or asking what they think they can do to improve). This process gives them some ownership of the error detection and the error correction, and (usually) makes for quicker improvement that stays with the athlete for a longer time.
Video feedback delayed is video feedback denied; people observing video of something very recently completed can remember what they were feeling (physically, not emotionally) when they did the movement, and can relate the video to what they did. The longer you delay providing the video, the less value it has because they can no longer easily relate the images with what they felt during the movement. Preferred option would be to allow a person to watch the video live, concurrently with their movements - in a repetitive sport like mine, this is possible - in Aikido it's a little more difficult to provide concurrent video feedback because you're constantly changing your viewpoint, and (should be) focusing on uke or nage, and not a mirror or a video monitor.

Walter

dalen7 01-14-2009 11:44 AM

Re: Pros and Cons of Video
 
Quote:

Walter Martindale wrote: (Post 223531)
Preferred option would be to allow a person to watch the video live, concurrently with their movements - in a repetitive sport like mine, this is possible - in Aikido it's a little more difficult to provide concurrent video feedback because you're constantly changing your viewpoint, and (should be) focusing on uke or nage, and not a mirror or a video monitor.

Walter

I pretty much agree with what you have said.

Yeah, you have to focus on uke/nage.
That is why the supplement video was good for me.

Not saying that mirrors cant help, etc.
But with Aikido, it seems that its more complex and the best way is to approach learning from different angles. (At least for me that is what has worked thus far.) :)

Peace

dAlen

Rob Watson 01-14-2009 03:48 PM

Re: Pros and Cons of Video
 
I have found it very helpful to watch very good strikers on video in slow motion. By fiddling with the playback speed different things become evident in their movements-you will just have to try and see what you see.

When followed by live drills or training my partners motion also seems to be slowed, at least for a while. I think this is not a complete waste of time in actually training the ability to see and read movements and to even develop some predictive ability.

Sometime around 3rd kyu I certainly had developed an awareness and ability to predict movements/attacks but it was fleeting and still not quite good enough to exploit in a significant manner. After working on the slow mo playback I find I am more able to use the predictive abilities more effectively.

One must start somewhere before reaching the lofty heights of sen sen no sen but not many give detailed instructions and drills on exactly how to get there ...

Thanks

mickeygelum 01-14-2009 04:16 PM

Re: Pros and Cons of Video
 
Greetings All,

I doubt that you can really find anything detrimental in regards to videoing you or another during keiko or randori. What is detrimental is that one would circumvent the physicallity of keiko for the instruction by tape or dvd.
We have been videoing all aspects of our training for decades, yet, after all is said and done, the review of the video yields more focused keiko.
What the video will provide is greater advancement in your keiko and randori. You will be able to see when your timing/speed/distance/center is not synchronized. Aikido is a feeling art, if you are "out of touch" with uke, then your technique is flawed. Video does not lie.

Train well,

Mickey

Rob Watson 01-15-2009 04:03 PM

Re: Pros and Cons of Video
 
The flip side of viewing video in slow motion is to view it in fast playback. Seeing good strikers work at 115% or 125% speed really makes your eyes/brain pay close attention. After even a few minutes regular speed or live action appears painfully slow. I cannot recommend mixing slow motion and fast motion because the differences are so great that it makes my head hurt so I generally alternate days or weeks of slow mo versus fast mo.

There are some technical problems because fast playback is not implemented the same in all video players. The good stuff does alter the time base and ups the frame rate from 28 or 30 frames per second (fps) to 35 or 40 fps for smooth fast action. The not so great ones actually drop a few frames without altering the frame rate-the result is jerkiness apparent in the motion.

After a viewing session working on the mat does really seem easier as everyone seems to move a bit slower but eventually the perception matches the speed and things are back to normal. After a couple of months of such activity I do seem to read movements a bit me clearly and can react earlier that before so it seems to be working for me. As long as real progress is evident I will keep using this method as an adjunct to my usual training regimen.

Thanks


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