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-   -   Ryote Tori Tips & Tricks (I Need Help) (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15605)

dalen7 01-07-2009 06:59 AM

Ryote Tori Tips & Tricks (I Need Help)
 
Had to add the disclaimer at the beginning so that no one would be under the impression I had tips for them. ;)

Im curious if some of you can help me out with some pointers and tips and tricks to Ryote Tori.

- Does it matter which foot is forward?
(i.e. Are Uke and Nages extended foot toward each other or does it matter ?)

- Which direction is best to go in?
(i.e. - if my left foot is extended forward and I am doing Ryote Tori Shihonage, would I take my right hand and grab Ukes left? Or does it matter?)

- Are the above two answers applicable to all the moves in Ryote Tori. (i.e., Tenshinage, Shihonage, etc.)

My main point is to get the direction.

Another point is it just seems awkward for me when I do the moves and both my hands are being held.

Any other pointers, hip movement, etc. would be welcomed.

Im having issues with Shihonage in general, but I can pin point it.
It seems that its at the point that ukes arms cross my head...Im either raising his hands up or standing up to high, etc. (My body isnt in sync I guess.)

Thanks

Peace

dAlen

NagaBaba 01-07-2009 07:25 AM

Re: Ryote Tori Tips & Tricks (I Need Help)
 
Quote:

- Does it matter which foot is forward?
Not at all. in the beginning it may be confusing, but later on you should be able to do any technique regardless of your position and position of an attacker. Otherwise you will never do spontanous movements.
Quote:

- Which direction is best to go in?
As a basic rule, you go always outside of the forward foot of attacker(irimi). This place is safe and easy to unbalance him. Position of hands depends of actual technique, I can't see a general rule.

Quote:

- Are the above two answers applicable to all the moves in Ryote Tori.
yes.

Quote:

-Another point is it just seems awkward for me when I do the moves and both my hands are being held.
Simply think as only one hand is hold by attacker and forget the other one.

Quote:

-Any other pointers, hip movement, etc. would be welcomed.
In the first contact you must do a kokyu, otherwise it is not possible to do any technique.

C. David Henderson 01-07-2009 07:46 AM

Re: Ryote Tori Tips & Tricks (I Need Help)
 
Hi dAlen,

Basic ryotedori calls for nage to attack with the mirror foot forward (as in gyaku hanmi). But from the attack, uke/tori can, with many techniques, work off of either hand -- e.g., ikkyo can be done with uke's leading hand or his/her trailing hand. However, the set up for each variation is different.

For this reason I'd say it's very important to train yourself to see just what version of the technique is being demonstrated, and which version(s) you're going to be held responsible to know for testing purposes.

I'd guess for shiho nage, the basic version will prove to involve the arm that corresponds to uke's leading foot. YMMV I'm not sure from your description what underlying problem you may be encountering. In addition to your working theories, you may also want to make certain you don't raise your own hands over your head as you enter and turn, but keep them in front of your head/center as you turn. Also, take uke's elbow away from his/her center as you enter and before you turn. If your entry allows uke to keep his/her elbow in front of their own center, you'll have a hard time unbalancing uke.

Ten shi nage -- basic omote the way we practice it involves sliding to the outside of uke's leading foot, with a downward cutting motion of the leading hand to the point behind uke's leading foot where he/she is unstable, and upward spiralling motion with the other arm toward the other shoulder to head area as you enter. Keep this hand in front of your center -- don't let your elbow cock behind you.

Hope that's useful information.

Regards,

DH

dalen7 01-07-2009 08:51 AM

Re: Ryote Tori Tips & Tricks (I Need Help)
 
Thank you Szczepan & David for both of your post.
Yes, both of the explanations helped - thank you for taking the time to write it.

I will, of course, need to go back through a couple of times and try to picture what it is Im doing along with what is said - so I can better pin point what is up.

Suppose the hardest part is, not seeing what my body is actually doing...Im thinking way to much in the movements. Im going to try to get a private lesson and video tape it so I can observe what it is Im doing vs. what I think Im doing - as well as compare it to the comments here in order to help out my technique.

Aikido has been a strange path...I think I got it, and then I hit a point of feeling like Im new all over again. :P

Peace

dAlen

C. David Henderson 01-07-2009 09:03 AM

Re: Ryote Tori Tips & Tricks (I Need Help)
 
Get used to it brother.

(& It's probably a good sign)

Ron Tisdale 01-07-2009 09:08 AM

Re: Ryote Tori Tips & Tricks (I Need Help)
 
First, Mr. S's point about kokyu is extremely important, and cannot be neglected. Eventually, the feeling *should* be like the saying in Daito ryu...the attacker's balance is taken upon contact.

That being said...

Quote:

Im having issues with Shihonage in general, but I can pin point it.
It seems that its at the point that ukes arms cross my head...Im either raising his hands up or standing up to high, etc. (My body isnt in sync I guess.)
Practice keeping your hands just in front of your fore head...you should be able to watch your hands throughout the turn and cut. If you lose sight of your hands, you are giving uke their posture back.
Best,
Ron

dalen7 01-07-2009 09:35 AM

Re: Ryote Tori Tips & Tricks (I Need Help)
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote: (Post 223106)
Practice keeping your hands just in front of your fore head...you should be able to watch your hands throughout the turn and cut. If you lose sight of your hands, you are giving uke their posture back.
Best,
Ron

I believe that is one of my problems...not keeping my hands in front of my forehead...something I will consciously be aware of when I practice from now on.

Thank

dAlen

p.s.
But Im not really understanding the point about kokyu.
I know Kokyu-ho, and kokynage, but I have a feeling this is referring to something else.

Janet Rosen 01-07-2009 09:35 AM

Re: Ryote Tori Tips & Tricks (I Need Help)
 
For shihonage what has always worked best for me to keep my hands in the proper alignment is to essentially glue them to my forehead as I enter and turn.
To make sure I have uke's balance before entering and turning, I put my "free" hand at uke's elbow and gently turn it away until uke rises from his center.

dalen7 01-07-2009 09:41 AM

Re: Ryote Tori Tips & Tricks (I Need Help)
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 223110)
For shihonage what has always worked best for me to keep my hands in the proper alignment is to essentially glue them to my forehead as I enter and turn.
To make sure I have uke's balance before entering and turning, I put my "free" hand at uke's elbow and gently turn it away until uke rises from his center.

Good point.
It seems I tend to raise my hands, and Ukes as I turn...I suppose I do this as it feels awkward for me to squat under them as I turn.
(I feel Im loosing balance - my legs are not the strongest part of me)

Hopefully that made sense.

Peace

dAlen

Ron Tisdale 01-07-2009 10:07 AM

Re: Ryote Tori Tips & Tricks (I Need Help)
 
Quote:

p.s.
But Im not really understanding the point about kokyu.
I know Kokyu-ho, and kokynage, but I have a feeling this is referring to something else.
It is supposed to be the same thing...but it often is not (unfortunately, and for me as well). You may ask Mr. S if he can describe what he means, but I also recommend you take a look in the non-aikido martial traditions section specifically for kokyu / jin / ki / kiko.

At a *very* basic level, see if you can use your mind to shift where you are supporting your hands from...not from the shoulders, but as close to the ground as possible. From there, see if you can "feel" yourself getting under uke's center. If you can feel a fairly cooperative uke getting floated up on their toes as they grab your wrists (not your hands), then you've begun to get a feel for it.

Don't think of opposing their power...think about getting under it, going around it. Then use the hand that you "grab" their wrist with as a guide only...not a muscular grip. Make sure you keep your elbows down and close to your body. If the elbows go out...consciously bring them back in.

Best,
Ron (sorry I can't be more clear)

dalen7 01-07-2009 12:15 PM

Re: Ryote Tori Tips & Tricks (I Need Help)
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote: (Post 223116)
Then use the hand that you "grab" their wrist with as a guide only...not a muscular grip. Make sure you keep your elbows down and close to your body. If the elbows go out...consciously bring them back in.

Best,
Ron (sorry I can't be more clear)

Interesting that you say that.
A guy who I train with has said something along the line of, "dont use strength - only when your totally relaxed can you do the movements."

But since there is a gap in communication, due to the language spoken, I havent been able to get much more out from that.

From what I have played around with, contrary to what my mind thinks, it would seem he is on to something.

I suppose its all mechanical - as there is no magic, per say - if you oppose strength with strength, the stronger wins...so you have to go around, which ironically it seems that when your more relaxed you can.

All I can say, to further this point is this - the guy I train with is not really a strong person...but he kind of slips out of a grip. Dont know how else to put it.

Anyway, what you said reminded me of this situation a bit.
I have to admit, I still am conditioned to look at using strength with each of my moves.

I know that my Sensei has said you dont need strength, and I dont doubt it...but I have not been able to tap fully into this method of working around the strength - per say. (Really I would need more mat time that focused just on this.)

Im hoping to get some private lessons, recorded, so I can go back and review what is said. (Because there will be translation ,etc.) Right now, that is about the only way I know to move forward with the concept.

Peace

dAlen

p.s. - Reflecting on my technique, I think my elbows are out...again, trying to use strength I suppose is why.

phitruong 01-07-2009 12:55 PM

Re: Ryote Tori Tips & Tricks (I Need Help)
 
something like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFCNvIJ8CjI

you can also look at some of the stuffs that Endo sensei doing which are different than using pure muscle strength.

dalen7 01-07-2009 01:02 PM

Re: Ryote Tori Tips & Tricks (I Need Help)
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 223136)
something like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFCNvIJ8CjI

you can also look at some of the stuffs that Endo sensei doing which are different than using pure muscle strength.

That is very nice...soft and fluid, I like it.
- I wonder how I would look on video...almost dread finding out. :)
Seriously though, each of my steps looks like Im exerting a lot of energy...while strength may get me by, it would be nice to learn, (and be confident with), a more energy efficient way.

Again, nice form indeed.

At this moment, I do believe when I get the opportunity I will record myself so I can properly see what it is I look like. I bet it will be glaringly obvious once I see it too.

Peace

dAlen

Ron Tisdale 01-07-2009 01:20 PM

Re: Ryote Tori Tips & Tricks (I Need Help)
 
Since you seem open to this, also try to be aware of keeping tension out of the front of your shoulders...if you start hunching forward, it is likely that your power is getting stopped in your shoulders. Try slightly pulling your shoulder blades together and focus on keeping your spine straight.

Best,
Ron

phitruong 01-07-2009 01:25 PM

Re: Ryote Tori Tips & Tricks (I Need Help)
 
Quote:

Dalen Johnson wrote: (Post 223137)
Seriously though, each of my steps looks like Im exerting a lot of energy...while strength may get me by, it would be nice to learn, (and be confident with), a more energy efficient way.

dAlen

it's easy to use pure muscle strength. we learned this approach most of our lives. the road to learn how to use a different kind of strength which Endo sensei displayed is a hard road to follow. it required lots of solo practice and a switching of mindset. for me it took running into folks like Endo sensei, Ikeda sensei, Howard Popkin, Mike Sigman, systema folks, and a few others to convince me of there are better ways to do aikido. that's my nickel! (had to account for inflation :))

dalen7 01-07-2009 01:33 PM

Re: Ryote Tori Tips & Tricks (I Need Help)
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote: (Post 223139)
Since you seem open to this, also try to be aware of keeping tension out of the front of your shoulders...if you start hunching forward, it is likely that your power is getting stopped in your shoulders. Try slightly pulling your shoulder blades together and focus on keeping your spine straight.

Best,
Ron

Its all coming together.
I do tend to hunch over...its like Im trying to use my upper body to push down - dont really catch this while doing it, as its 'natural' for me - but I can only imagine how 'sloppy' it looks to someone watching.

Thanks for bringing that up.
Also, its not strictly about trying to use force, per say, where the hunch comes in...its on the way down to the pin - where I should be using my legs to squat. (Again, my legs arent the strongest and are not used to going parallel, as it were, to a pinning position.)

Aikido seems to have brought up how my body doesnt really flow, per say. Weird how many 'natural' bad habbits we pick up over a life time. :)

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
Trying to think of an example.
I suppose the end of Shihonage. After you pull ukes hand/wrist in front of you, and you go down with them - I tend to hunch over, almost like your reaching over to throw something away. (Whats that about anyway?) :)

dalen7 01-07-2009 01:41 PM

Re: Ryote Tori Tips & Tricks (I Need Help)
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 223140)
it's easy to use pure muscle strength. we learned this approach most of our lives. the road to learn how to use a different kind of strength which Endo sensei displayed is a hard road to follow. it required lots of solo practice and a switching of mindset. for me it took running into folks like Endo sensei, Ikeda sensei, Howard Popkin, Mike Sigman, systema folks, and a few others to convince me of there are better ways to do aikido. that's my nickel! (had to account for inflation :))

Yeah, I suppose its hard, partially due to conditioning of what we think is possible. Its only when you run into instances where it 'works' that you take a double take and start to try to figure it out. (Im getting there...) :)

Peace

dAlen

p.s
Dig the bit about the nickel. :D
Gotta use that sometime myself. :)


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