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-   -   Got pwned by boxer =-( (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15593)

kmiklas 01-05-2009 12:23 PM

Got pwned by boxer =-(
 
A friend of mine boxed for the army. I've been studying Aikido for about a month and so I asked him to friendly-spar for a couple of minutes to show him what I'd learned.

Basically, I got owned. I never came close to blending with his jabs. I finally had to tell him to slow his attacks down, so that I could demonstrate Ikkyo and Sankyo.

His comments:
1. It's not possible to catch/blend with his punches.
2. He's going to throw a combination, so even if I try I'm probably going to get hit (this, too, he demonstrated with a gentle right to my floating rib when I tried for a sankyo).
3. He would never over-extend himself with a "clean attack" like we use in class.
4. All this has been settled with the Gracies in Brazilian Ju Jitsu. Back in the '70's they invited people from all different schools to come down and fight it out. What "came out in the wash" was these three positions, and most effective related styles:
a. STANDING SEPARATE: boxing; kick-boxing
b. GRAPPLING: Muy-Thai; Wrestling
c. GROUND: Wrestling; Ju Jitsu

In sum, I felt helpless and defenseless against his skills.

Ron Tisdale 01-05-2009 12:27 PM

Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
 
He boxed in the army, for an extended period of time...and you've spent 1 month doing cooperative training in a japanese martial art...and you are surprised at the outcome?

hmmmm....

Best,
Ron

ChrisHein 01-05-2009 12:44 PM

Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
 
Well we all know what the outcome would be even if he spent 20 years doing Aikido. The boxer would have owned him!

Boxers are better at boxing then Aikidoka. That's because they spend their time boxing, and we don't.

Get that same buddie, and get yourself a padded club. Focus on striking his jabbing hand. Keep your distance, he will get frustrated that you have a reach advantage, and rush you, thus over extending.

If he didn't have gloves on, I'll bet he'd grab your weapon hand, to stop you from hitting him, guess what happens when he grabs your wrist...

Go at it again, and see how much more even you are.

All the things he told you are correct.
Aikido is a poor unarmed system, change the paradigm and the outcome will change.

Takuan 01-05-2009 12:54 PM

Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
 
Had a great laugh with you post, thanks! Aikido for a month!!!!! Hahahaha! Is this really a serious post??

Ron Tisdale 01-05-2009 12:57 PM

Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
 
Quote:

Well we all know what the outcome would be even if he spent 20 years doing Aikido. The boxer would have owned him!
Not necessarily so, but in many, if not most cases, absolutely.

One example (if you believe the story) is Gozo Shioda taking on a boxer who had defeated one of his students. Shioda Sensei, on the other hand, seemed to have little trouble. The details give some idea of one way to handle such a situation.

Best,
Ron

Aikibu 01-05-2009 01:19 PM

Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
 
The stratagy of conflict in Budo requires thought. Why would I try to out box a boxer or submit a wrestler? You're just learning so it's good you're finding out this lesson early. The Folks here are correct about learning to play to your strengths not your opponents.Aikido requires an entirely different approach to "fighting" and if you were one of my students with no prior Martial Arts experiance I might suggest you get a "black belt" in something else first if you want to learn "how to fight". Then come to Aikido. :)

Just relax and don't get frustrated and you'll experiance what I mean in due time. :)

William Hazen

NagaBaba 01-05-2009 01:41 PM

Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
 
Quote:

Keith Miklas wrote: (Post 222914)
In sum, I felt helpless and defenseless against his skills.

That is very good feeling. Now you understand deeply, that O sensei didn't create aikido for self defence.

lbb 01-05-2009 02:20 PM

Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
 
Quote:

Keith Miklas wrote: (Post 222914)
In sum, I felt helpless and defenseless against his skills.

You should have. You're a rookie and he's experienced. The "never box a boxer, never wrestle a wrestler" truth that others have pointed out is something to always remember, if for no other reasons than it puts an end to the endless "Could Superman beat up Batman?" type arguments.

Quote:

Keith Miklas wrote: (Post 222914)
His comments:
1. It's not possible to catch/blend with his punches.

Not absolutely true, but a lot closer to the truth than a lot of students of grappling styles would like to believe. It's a common belief among grappling stylists that you "just catch the leg" if someone kicks, or "just catch the punch" if someone punches. Someone who trains in a striking style can strike much faster, much harder and with much less telegraphing than what you're likely to experience from your partners in an aikido dojo.

Quote:

Keith Miklas wrote: (Post 222914)
2. He's going to throw a combination, so even if I try I'm probably going to get hit (this, too, he demonstrated with a gentle right to my floating rib when I tried for a sankyo).
3. He would never over-extend himself with a "clean attack" like we use in class.

Again, in aikido dojos we train against a simple, obvious, straightforward attack. There are good reasons for this, but it does mean that there are certain styles of attack that you just don't get much practice against. Again, doesn't mean that aikido can't defend against these attacks, but if I were dealing with a combination striking attack, I'm sure I'd at least partly use skills I learned from karate.

By the way, there are a lot of valuable lessons to take away from your experience, but none of them is, "boxing beats aikido".

GeneC 01-05-2009 04:01 PM

Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
 
Quote:

Keith Miklas wrote: (Post 222914)
A friend of mine boxed for the army. I've been studying Aikido for about a month and so I asked him to friendly-spar for a couple of minutes to show him what I'd learned.

Basically, I got owned. I never came close to blending with his jabs. I finally had to tell him to slow his attacks down, so that I could demonstrate Ikkyo and Sankyo.

His comments:
1. It's not possible to catch/blend with his punches.
2. He's going to throw a combination, so even if I try I'm probably going to get hit (this, too, he demonstrated with a gentle right to my floating rib when I tried for a sankyo).
3. He would never over-extend himself with a "clean attack" like we use in class.
4. All this has been settled with the Gracies in Brazilian Ju Jitsu. Back in the '70's they invited people from all different schools to come down and fight it out. What "came out in the wash" was these three positions, and most effective related styles:
a. STANDING SEPARATE: boxing; kick-boxing
b. GRAPPLING: Muy-Thai; Wrestling
c. GROUND: Wrestling; Ju Jitsu

In sum, I felt helpless and defenseless against his skills.

Exactly what I've been saying since I joined(Aikiweb). I'd add, Muay-Thai is not grappling, it's strictly a stand up, kick-boxing MA. Also, grappling IS ground. Sorry, so noone gets the wrong idea, I'm not trying to correct as much as 'enlighten'.

Chris Covington 01-05-2009 04:14 PM

Re: Got owned by boxer =-(
 
Hello all,

It's been a while, but there is a video somewhere on youtube (or there was) of a Russian aikidoka and a Russian Thai boxer sparring. The aikidoka was able to pull off a kotegaeshi from the boxer's jab.

They were very well matched, but the aikidoka certainly held his own. It wasn't prearranged and they were certainly going all out with each other. It looked like a good match up honestly. Can most aikidoka do that? I doubt it. But to be fair the Thai boxer if memory serves was a champion in his weight so maybe a less skilled Thai boxer wouldn't have done as well?

This weekend we were practicing Daito-ryu against jabs instead of lunges and shomenuchis and found if you do the kata correctly they work juast as well or even better if someone pulls back their hand.

Good luck, keep training and don't be to eager to show off your skills because you don't have any yet. Part of budo training is to supress the ego, this should be a good lesson in that. ;)

grondahl 01-05-2009 04:17 PM

Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
 
You are actually totally wrong, Muay Thai includes a lot of standing clinchwork including throws from the clinch.

Quote:

Clarence Couch wrote: (Post 222941)
Exactly what I've been saying since I joined(Aikiweb). I'd add, Muay-Thai is not grappling, it's strictly a stand up, kick-boxing MA. Also, grappling IS ground. Sorry, so noone gets the wrong idea, I'm not trying to correct as much as 'enlighten'.


Aikibu 01-05-2009 04:25 PM

Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
 
Quote:

Peter Gröndahl wrote: (Post 222944)
You are actually totally wrong, Muay Thai includes a lot of standing clinchwork including throws from the clinch.

LOL I sparred with an MT Guy just a few months back and he did everything from the clinch or so it seemed. His technique was very Aikido like Jab Jab Kick Kick and Enter...Clinch and Dirty Box...

And those knees :eek:

Nope Aikido does not work very well in the clinch...:)

William Hazen

GeneC 01-05-2009 04:28 PM

Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 222928)
That is very good feeling. Now you understand deeply, that O sensei didn't create aikido for self defence.

Then it shouldn't be labeled a martial art.

George S. Ledyard 01-05-2009 04:46 PM

Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
 
Quote:

Keith Miklas wrote: (Post 222914)

In sum, I felt helpless and defenseless against his skills.

With a whole month under your belt, you are "helpless and defenseless" against everyone's skills. This has nothing to do with Boxing vs Aikido; it has to do with a total beginner in one art meeting a very experienced practitioner of another art. What, pray tell, did you expect? Why don't you train a while seriously before you start messing about with cross training? With just a month on the mat you don't even know enough to know what questions to ask... you can only come up with erroneous notions at this point.

C. David Henderson 01-05-2009 04:49 PM

Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
 
Quote:

Clarence Couch wrote: (Post 222948)
Then it shouldn't be labeled a martial art.

Does this affect your commitment to train in that "non-martial art?" Seems like it should, if that's your priority and your considered view of the situation.

gdandscompserv 01-05-2009 04:51 PM

Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
 
Quote:

Clarence Couch wrote: (Post 222948)
Then it shouldn't be labeled a martial art.

ok
:D

Tony Wagstaffe 01-05-2009 05:06 PM

Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
 
Quote:

Keith Miklas wrote: (Post 222914)
A friend of mine boxed for the army. I've been studying Aikido for about a month and so I asked him to friendly-spar for a couple of minutes to show him what I'd learned.

Basically, I got owned. I never came close to blending with his jabs. I finally had to tell him to slow his attacks down, so that I could demonstrate Ikkyo and Sankyo.

His comments:
1. It's not possible to catch/blend with his punches.
2. He's going to throw a combination, so even if I try I'm probably going to get hit (this, too, he demonstrated with a gentle right to my floating rib when I tried for a sankyo).
3. He would never over-extend himself with a "clean attack" like we use in class.
4. All this has been settled with the Gracies in Brazilian Ju Jitsu. Back in the '70's they invited people from all different schools to come down and fight it out. What "came out in the wash" was these three positions, and most effective related styles:
a. STANDING SEPARATE: boxing; kick-boxing
b. GRAPPLING: Muy-Thai; Wrestling
c. GROUND: Wrestling; Ju Jitsu

In sum, I felt helpless and defenseless against his skills.

:rolleyes: titter!

Back to the drawing board...... titter......

Kevin Leavitt 01-05-2009 08:29 PM

Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
 
AIkido principles works just well in the clinch. I would argue that the clinch is within the context of aikido. In fact done properly it demonstrates the concept of ikkyo quite well. Ikkyo in principle, not in form.

In principle ikkyo is about controlling the spine accessing it from the shoulder area. Clinching right and it is about irimi as well.

Watch a good MMA guy in the ring closely. Especially when the are against the cage. They will pummel, underhook, control the shoulder to the spine, irimi and spin the opponent against the cage.

Glad you mentioned the Clinch William. IT is the first thing I'd recommend that someone learn if they are serious about fighting.

You can catch punches just fine....it may just not be with your hand! :)

Clinching puts you in a range that negates his ability to punch and improves your ability to effectively use aiki principles.

We have to be careful not to confuse the kata that we train with to teach princples with practical application. However just because many don't train the clinch does not mean that it cannot contain aiki principles.

Don 01-05-2009 08:52 PM

Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
 
I constantly enjoy watching the evolution of (and diversity of) opinion on this forum on this topic. "I got owned"------->you need to train a little more than a month ( I think that is pretty unanimous)--------->aikido doesn't work -----or----->aikido does work-----or------>aikido is a martial art-------or------>aikdio isn't a martial art. Seems that for every person who doesn't think it works or isn't a martial art (and why are you here if that's your opinion) there is someone who asserts it does and is. Seems to me if you take the principles (as Kevin pointed out) and train to see the martial context and you practice to the right attitude, then it will be effective. If you just want to "feel the blend" then it may not be effective. But at any rate, none of this comes after a month. May you have many years of happy training.

Nathan Pereira 01-06-2009 01:45 AM

Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
 
Amen Kevin,

I love working from the clinch. For a short arse like me it is a great neautralizer if you can clinch well. As for aikido from the clinch, well I regularly use kote geishi, sokumen irimi nage, shomen irimi nage, ushiro nage and various hip throws. The application may look different from what most consider "aikido" but the principals are very aiki.

xuzen 01-06-2009 02:40 AM

Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 222919)
Well we all know what the outcome would be even if he spent 20 years doing Aikido. The boxer would have owned him!

Boxers are better at boxing then Aikidoka. That's because they spend their time boxing, and we don't.

Get that same buddie, and get yourself a padded club. Focus on striking his jabbing hand. Keep your distance, he will get frustrated that you have a reach advantage, and rush you, thus over extending.

If he didn't have gloves on, I'll bet he'd grab your weapon hand, to stop you from hitting him, guess what happens when he grabs your wrist...

Go at it again, and see how much more even you are.

All the things he told you are correct.
Aikido is a poor unarmed system, change the paradigm and the outcome will change.

This is so true, so true. I guess the most pragmatic post in this thread.

Boon

Stefan Hultberg 01-06-2009 03:39 AM

Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
 
Quote:

Clarence Couch wrote: (Post 222948)
Then it shouldn't be labeled a martial art.

Hi

What does the word "martial" mean to you? It seems to me that O-sensei had a much broader (or at least different) view of the word than you do. I have read a quote by O-sensei saying "aikido is the study of the spirit". He continues "aikido provides the means to penetrate the reality of existence".

It seems O-senseis definition of a "martial" art is somewhat broader than the idea that "martial" designates an art for fighting, for war. It seems O-sensei was of the opinion that the fighting to be done is with oneself and that self-victory is the ultimate goal of the fight.

I maintain - if someone wants to practice an art that is 100% focussed on fighting, self-defense, dealing with a boxer etc. I do wonder if aikido is the right choice.

Many regards

Stefan Hultberg

Tony Wagstaffe 01-06-2009 04:07 AM

Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 222960)
AIkido principles works just well in the clinch. I would argue that the clinch is within the context of aikido. In fact done properly it demonstrates the concept of ikkyo quite well. Ikkyo in principle, not in form.

In principle ikkyo is about controlling the spine accessing it from the shoulder area. Clinching right and it is about irimi as well.

Watch a good MMA guy in the ring closely. Especially when the are against the cage. They will pummel, underhook, control the shoulder to the spine, irimi and spin the opponent against the cage.

Glad you mentioned the Clinch William. IT is the first thing I'd recommend that someone learn if they are serious about fighting.

You can catch punches just fine....it may just not be with your hand! :)

Clinching puts you in a range that negates his ability to punch and improves your ability to effectively use aiki principles.

We have to be careful not to confuse the kata that we train with to teach princples with practical application. However just because many don't train the clinch does not mean that it cannot contain aiki principles.

Sometimes ya have to take a bit of damage to get what ya want eh!?.... or try to get inside the retract to get inside striking range and close 'em up!!? Its always difficult to catch fast jabs, rather let them come, avoid off centre and when the wind blows itself out to regenerate more punching power move in rapidly with oshitaoshi/ikkyo to turn 'em round or take 'em down or ushiro ate rear attack (irimi?)..... sometimes you can get kote gaishe that's my turn on it..... its difficult but with practice you can take them from below the arm with ikkyo..... and having the the ability to combinate .......its all about timing, combinating, and kuzushi really ain't it..... ;) :)

Tony

JRY 01-06-2009 06:44 AM

Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
 
Hi Keith
your friend sounds like he's been boxing for awhile, so its no surprise with the difference in experience. As mentioned above, don't bring a punching match to a boxer.

The subtleties of Aikido can be modified to be quite destructive. eg. direct Iriminage or arm break from shihonage. At the moment, you are learning where to put your hands and where to put your feet. In the dojo we accomodate each other to learn the correct movement.
I understand that you would like to try out the techniques but for now you have to learn the basics.

don't get me wrong, I am not condoning (not sure if this word is in the right context?) sparring Aikido vs MMA or boxing etc. I always believe its the martial artist and not the martial arts thats a factor. If if you want a quick martial art for grapelling or combat, then maybe you should look for another martial art :)

don't have to feel helpless/defenseless with him... he's your friend right? :) just look at it as part of training.

hope this helps
all the best

kmiklas 01-06-2009 07:10 AM

Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
 
Quote:

William Hazen wrote: (Post 222925)
The stratagy of conflict in Budo requires thought. Why would I try to out box a boxer or submit a wrestler? You're just learning so it's good you're finding out this lesson early. The Folks here are correct about learning to play to your strengths not your opponents.Aikido requires an entirely different approach to "fighting" and if you were one of my students with no prior Martial Arts experiance I might suggest you get a "black belt" in something else first if you want to learn "how to fight". Then come to Aikido. :)

This paragraph sums up my mistake well. I tried to force Aikido techniques on a jabbing boxer; and they don't work well against jabs. Aikido seems to require a committed attack to throw an opponent off balance.

I wonder if my mistake was at a conceptual level; in the "approach" as you say. Boxing is the art/sport of landing effective punches on an opponent. Aikido is not designed for sport-fighting.


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