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-   -   How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15538)

Ellis Amdur 12-24-2008 11:55 AM

How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution
 
With the sometimes naive idea of aikido magically being able to resolve all conflict, particularly "soft" aikido, I find this statement by Toehi Koichi quite refreshing.

Tohei Koichi: http://www.toitsu.de/texte/tohei_en.htm

Quote:

You have taught Ki-Aikido to police, FBI, and Secret Service personnel. How did you teach them to calm down or restrain a dangerous person, or someone who is on drugs and out of control?
If a person is dangerous, on drugs and out of control, the only thing to do is forcibly arrest them. They are temporarily out of their mind, so it makes no sense to talk about respecting their human rights. If they are putting others at risk they must be restrained, and then dealt with after they return to their senses.

Janet Rosen 12-24-2008 12:42 PM

Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution
 
There you go, being realistic again! :-)

Aikibu 12-24-2008 12:48 PM

Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution
 
What amazing is that some folks don't find that obvious about Aikido's "methodology of conflict resolution"

Happy Holidays Ellis. :)

William Hazen

Tony Wagstaffe 12-24-2008 12:53 PM

Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution
 
Quote:

Ellis Amdur wrote: (Post 221922)
With the sometimes naive idea of aikido magically being able to resolve all conflict, particularly "soft" aikido, I find this statement by Toehi Koichi quite refreshing.

Tohei Koichi: http://www.toitsu.de/texte/tohei_en.htm

It goes without saying!! They or people under the "influence" certainly won't worry about your concerns!! That's certainly been my experience........

Tony

PS Merry Crimbo to everyone and lets hope for a much better New Year.....

mickeygelum 12-25-2008 06:27 PM

Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution
 
Mr Amdur,

I agree wholeheartedly, very refreshing. Thank you for posting this.:D

Train well,

Mickey

crbateman 12-25-2008 06:38 PM

Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution
 
Quote:

Ellis Amdur wrote: (Post 221922)
I find this statement by Toehi Koichi quite refreshing.

So do I! Be well, Ellis... :)

Nathan Wallace 12-25-2008 07:49 PM

Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution
 
lol...its funny, you'd think it was common sense.

SeiserL 12-26-2008 06:05 AM

Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution
 
It is still a martial art, isn't it?

Mato-san 12-26-2008 06:26 AM

Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution
 
touch me.... put your fingers on me

Mato-san 12-26-2008 06:35 AM

Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution
 
My finger bleeds......bring it on....I know your god,,,, I submit....you cant take me.......just try....you cant take me

ChrisHein 12-26-2008 10:07 AM

Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution
 
If it wasn't Tohei sensei who said it, and Ellis Amdur who quoted it, all the posts above mine would likely say something to the effect of, "No I think..", or "My teacher..", or "they must not be studying O-senseis Aikido", or "Saying that clearly means you don't have a grasp of Aikido" etc. etc.

mickeygelum 12-26-2008 10:41 AM

Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution
 
Quote:

If it wasn't Tohei sensei who said it, and Ellis Amdur who quoted it, all the posts above mine would likely say something to the effect of, "No I think..", or "My teacher..", or "they must not be studying O-senseis Aikido", or "Saying that clearly means you don't have a grasp of Aikido" etc. etc.
...Very true, Sir.

( I wonder how many are mumbling or thinking that still?:eek: )

Train well,

Mickey

mathewjgano 12-26-2008 12:34 PM

Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 222033)
If it wasn't Tohei sensei who said it, and Ellis Amdur who quoted it, all the posts above mine would likely say something to the effect of, "No I think..", or "My teacher..", or "they must not be studying O-senseis Aikido", or "Saying that clearly means you don't have a grasp of Aikido" etc. etc.

Maybe you're right, but I don't think that would necessarily be the case. It's hard to argue with highly respected positions of authority, but I think it also has a lot to do with how the topic is worded. I think many folks are a bit more free in offering counterpoints (which aren't necessarily contradictions, despite being taken that way by many) when your "average Joe" posts.
...At least, I think I tend to be one of those folks who is quick to talk about the peace and love side of Aikido when folks talk about the need for "martial-ness", but I also have a very firm sense of the violence of reality.

mathewjgano 12-26-2008 04:50 PM

Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution
 
Quote:

Mathew McDowell wrote: (Post 222024)
My finger bleeds......bring it on....I know your god,,,, I submit....you cant take me.......just try....you cant take me

Mato-san, what does this mean?

John Matsushima 12-26-2008 05:47 PM

Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution
 
Quote:

Ellis Amdur wrote: (Post 221922)
With the sometimes naive idea of aikido magically being able to resolve all conflict, particularly "soft" aikido, I find this statement by Toehi Koichi quite refreshing.

Tohei Koichi: http://www.toitsu.de/texte/tohei_en.htm

I don't understand what is so refreshing about this. Tohei seems to be saying that you can't calm down a dangerous person, and that they need to be restrained. Ok, I'll buy that. I haven't heard of any Aikido that focuses on talking down or calming down someone vs. restraint. I don't know what you mean about "soft Aikido" . Isn't restraining someone even though it may be "gentler or softer" resolving the conflict? . He doesn't answer the question on how to restrain them, only using the word "forcibly", but I don't think he is talking about hurting people because of his earlier comments in the article regarding violence. I don't agree or completely understand what he meant about not respecting people's human rights. Even police must respect respect the rights of everyone they arrest as much as they can, don't they?

Tony Wagstaffe 12-27-2008 02:43 AM

Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution
 
Quote:

Matthew Gano wrote: (Post 222051)
Mato-san, what does this mean?

I shouldn't worry about it ....... either too much sake or he's smacked the back of his head into the tatami too many times!!......

Tony Wagstaffe 12-28-2008 04:57 AM

Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution
 
Quote:

John Matsushima wrote: (Post 222054)
I don't understand what is so refreshing about this. Tohei seems to be saying that you can't calm down a dangerous person, and that they need to be restrained. Ok, I'll buy that. I haven't heard of any Aikido that focuses on talking down or calming down someone vs. restraint. I don't know what you mean about "soft Aikido" . Isn't restraining someone even though it may be "gentler or softer" resolving the conflict? . He doesn't answer the question on how to restrain them, only using the word "forcibly", but I don't think he is talking about hurting people because of his earlier comments in the article regarding violence. I don't agree or completely understand what he meant about not respecting people's human rights. Even police must respect respect the rights of everyone they arrest as much as they can, don't they?

When they can yes...... much depends on the onslaught of the "human" who perpetrates the violence....... I'm sure you must be aware of how "ugly" people can get when under the influence of mental disorder or "madness" or drugs, alcohol and so forth.....
It won't happen like you think its going to..... very unpredictable as your life could be in danger and using what force is necessary is necessary...... If someone has to go "down" I try to make sure its them...... ask questions later and live to tell the tale.....

Mato-san 12-28-2008 08:49 AM

Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution
 
Not sake but Asahi... my apologies..not the first time. But yeah the notorious beeraohlic Aikidioka. Sake and me don't dance

Mato-san 12-28-2008 09:06 AM

Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution
 
Beer aside, soft Aikido is nice.
If it don't work the application becomes frustrating, one you give up, two you muscle through it, 3 you feel and do it.
I guess it is a whole new thread, when do you do 1, 2 or 3?
Or do you continuously strive on 3?
I find myself continuously working on 3 and that is also frustrating

Mato-san 12-28-2008 09:22 AM

Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution
 
Apologize to the entire forum... just to keep the tread in tact, to much beer on the Bonenkai this year. Let the harmony flow

mathewjgano 12-28-2008 07:25 PM

Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution
 
Quote:

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: (Post 222154)
When they can yes...... much depends on the onslaught of the "human" who perpetrates the violence....... I'm sure you must be aware of how "ugly" people can get when under the influence of mental disorder or "madness" or drugs, alcohol and so forth.....
It won't happen like you think its going to..... very unpredictable as your life could be in danger and using what force is necessary is necessary...... If someone has to go "down" I try to make sure its them...... ask questions later and live to tell the tale.....

Like the great Hunter Thompson said (a man who was an authority on "altered" states): you can turn your back on a person, but never on a drug...I presume certain mental disorders are much the same thing.

Buck 12-28-2008 10:09 PM

Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution
 
I know allot of people try to follow O'Sensei's philosophy and as a result of many things gravitate to one of the extremes. The soft Aikido end of the spectrum is being talked about here and isn't favored because of its seeming unrealistic view, and poor showing.

I want to throw a new spice into the soup, I think that the soft Aikido is the most difficult to achieve than the other extreme being hard Aikido. My criticism with the soft Aikido isn't the goal or if it is possible, effective, etc. it is those who really don't understand the soft end and are not good at it, but advocate publicly. Beside throwing in their own flavoring in the pot of soft Aikido. It is damaging to the idea and credibility of soft Aikido. Boy, does it also give the hard Aikido people ammo to attack the idea of soft Aikido.

I don't think soft Aikido is about soft people. O.K. then what is soft Aikido about, it is about the approach and application of the full use of skills applied effectively to a dangerous situation at hand. I think some people because of their meek nature feel Aikido should be practiced and applied meekly and passively like soft Aikido. By taking that route your abilities don't match up to the threat your are forced to face. As the ye ol' sayings go, your only as good as your training, and perfect practice makes perfect. Btw, as for the other extreme, hard Aikido, it suffers from the same conditions. No control, over aggressive, narrow perspectives, etc.

Everyone takes Aikido for different reasons, and not all of us will every have to use it on the street or as professionals. Bunches of people take Aikido for recreation, social, and spiritual reasons. I would say less take it for fighting. Even though many would agree O'Sensei didn't seem to be your typical meek and passive person. A person with a strong spirit, but not violent spirit. Maybe a person with a hot temper, but not a violent temper. Certainly, he wasn't Gandhi, I mean there are pictures of him where he is someone you wouldn't want to mess with. Despite those poses and moments of intense concentration, he wasn't a person who would injure or kill you if you angered him, as possibly done by those Japanese military officers document in WWII. I think that is what is the gauge we measure what violence by and what is peace when he speaks -based on his life experiences.

In a way soft Aikido is probably the most effective and refined Aikido, it is just that some people don't see it that way. :)

FWIW.

Joe McParland 12-28-2008 11:11 PM

Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution
 
Quote:

Ellis Amdur wrote: (Post 221922)
With the sometimes naive idea of aikido magically being able to resolve all conflict, particularly "soft" aikido, I find this statement by Toehi Koichi quite refreshing.

Tohei Koichi: http://www.toitsu.de/texte/tohei_en.htm

Since the interview does not say "arrest using aikido forcibly," "forcibly arrest using aikido," "aikido is already sufficient to forcibly arrest," or even "forcibly arrest with techniques outside aikido," it would seem Ellis is reading K. Tohei's statement through hard lenses. ;)

And where are these mythical aiki-bunnies with the "naive idea of aikido magically being able to resolve all conflict" anyway? And why do the "hard stylists" seem to tense up so in these forums thinking about them?

Quote:

The Same Article wrote:
The one essential thing I learned from Ueshiba Sensei was how to relax. He was always relaxed in the face of conflict, which is why his Aikido was so strong.

Ducking! :D

C. David Henderson 12-29-2008 02:02 PM

Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution
 
Quote:

Matthew Gano wrote: (Post 222175)
Like the great Hunter Thompson said (a man who was an authority on "altered" states): you can turn your back on a person, but never on a drug...I presume certain mental disorders are much the same thing.

In the summer of 1981, I took a bus from Salem, OR, where the State Hospital is located, to Portland, where I was living at the time.

A man got on the bus who clearly seemed schizophrenic, and decompensating. He muttered to himself constantly, and appeared apprehensive.

The bus was the "milk run," and so had multiple stops. At each stop, the man would come up to the door, mutter, and when the increasingly nervous bus driver asked him if he wanted out, you could almost see the wheels in his mind going, "No, don't get off now, it's a trick."

Eventually we pulled into the station in Portland. The man who I thought likely was a recently released hospital patient had grown more restless as the trip progressed, but thankfully he didn't act out.

When we were leaving the bus, he stopped at the door, and began to mutter. I couldn't help but think my fellow traveler was saying to himself, "Oh no; this was the trick all along." I thought -- Everywhere he goes, there he is, waiting for himself.

Hadn't thought of that in a long time.

DH

jennifer paige smith 12-29-2008 02:19 PM

Re: How truly refreshing - Tohei K. on conflict resolution
 
Reminds me of a joke:

A man is siting on a semi-crowded city bus when a mumbling, alcohol soaked, bum gets on. The sitting man se's him and starts counting seats to estimate the odds of the drunk guy sitting next to him. He realizes the chances look 50/50, so he starts to pray,"God,please don't let him sit next to me. God, please don't let him sit ext to me"..and on..
The bum inches his way down the bus, mumbling,mumbling...
The sitting man prays more rapidly,Please,please,please.....

As the bum gets right to the man's seat he smiles,unloads his backpack off his shoulders, throws himself down in the seat next to him, and says clear as a bell with a huge smile, "God told me to sit here.".


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