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Thinker 02-19-2002 10:39 PM

Dizzy doing rolls
 
Hi..

I recently started doing Aikido, and have been experiencing dizziness and disorientation when doing forward rolls (and sometimes backward rolls... but by then I'm already dizzy from the forward rolls, so can't really tell).

Has anyone else had this problem ? How can I resolve this ? Does it just go away with time ?

Any info would be greatly appreciated !

Thanks.

-Thinker.

Robyn Johnson 02-19-2002 10:54 PM

Hello!

I've been doing Aikido for about 1 year and 6 months and I often (but not always) get dizzy from doing the rolls. Especially the backward rolls. One guy in my dojo suggested that I might not be drinking enough water before class. I don't know if that's it or not. Maybe I hold my breath while doing rolls. Not sure. If there is anyone out there who knows a real answer to this trivia, I'd definitly be interested in hearing it too! :)

Robyn :)

shihonage 02-19-2002 11:23 PM

Roll from one end of the mat to the other uninterruptedly, and then backward.

Once you learn to do that without slamming into walls or flying out of the windows, your dizziness will be gone.

Bronson 02-20-2002 02:14 AM

Hello,

I just registered so everyone has to be nice to me :p

Over the years the best things I've found to help alleviate dizziness is to 1) breathe during every roll 2)doing tekubi shindo undo (wrist shaking exercise) after rolling 3)pressing and holding with the tip of your finger just below your nose where it meets the upper lip. Hold with gentle pressure and take a couple of breaths. I'm not really sure why this helps but it seems to.
BTW the dizziness does get less and less as you get used to it, so maybe the best thing is to keep rolling :D

Hope this helps,

Bronson

guest1234 02-20-2002 05:51 AM

Not breathing enough, or drinking enough, would tend to make you lightheaded (going to pass out feeling, like from jumping up from the sofa too fast), but not dizzy (room is spinning feeling). I think the dizziness that comes from repeated rolling on one side is from stimulation of sensors in the ear.

My first sensei would say to alternate rolls (left-right-left-etc) to avoid this, and it worked for me. Then I hit a dojo that required small forward rolls, one side, length of mat. What finally got me over the dizziness was doing several lengths of the mat, every day. I hit upon this when the instructor who anted one length noticed how dizzy I was and told us to do two, instead. Part of me thought he might just be sadisticevileyes , but part of me figured he might know something I didn't.

I have a couple of theories on why it helped me over my dizziness: it might be that I just learned to supress what my semicircular canals are telling me, or it could be in the beginning I had my head tilted in a bad way or moved it around too much, and with continued practice (kind of the 'thousand bokken cuts' theory) I found the right place to put it and trained that in...or a combination.

But the good news is, it did stop.

Paul Clark 02-20-2002 07:45 AM

Colleen,

Spoken as only a flight surgeon could. I find that the more rolls I do and the more often, the less dizzy I get. I think your brain learns to "filter" the signals from the 3 semicircular canals during a movement it just gets used to. It almost certainly helps, too, if you can position your head so that you only excite one axis, or two, rather than all 3. Graveyard spiral while recovering from a 30 degree dive pass seems to come to mind.

Some of the folks in my dojo say that hopping up and down quickly after a series of rolls dissipates the dizziness. don't know if that works or why, but there's a lot of hopping going on around here!

Paul

warriorwoman 02-20-2002 09:13 AM

dizzy doing rolls
 
When doing a roll, pick a focal point to represent your attacker and keep your eyes on that as you do your roll. At some point in the roll your eyes may have to leave that focal point for a second or two, but return your gaze to that spot. This is what skaters or dancers do when doing turns and spins. When you think about it, it makes sense to train in this way because you don't want to do a roll without purpose. It is in relation to your attacker. Your body will get accustomed to rolling and not be as sensitive to it the longer you train also. I believe your sensei wanted you to just keep doing them so you can figure this out for yourself.
janet dtantirojanarat
www.warriorwoman.org

lt-rentaroo 02-20-2002 10:42 AM

Hello,

There are many reasons why you become dizzy when practicing rolls. Several others have hit on the one main reason. The semicircular canals in your ears help you to maintain balance and sense movement. However, your eyes are also important factors in the determination of movement. Here's an example. Have you ever noticed that while sitting in a car at a stoplight, and the car next to you begins to move forward slowly; you get the "sensation" of moving backward? This is because your eyes play a little motion trick on you, the semicircular canals in your ears aren't receiving any motion input, but your eyes are.

To help alleviate the dizziness, you need to get your eyes and ears to experience the same motion inputs. In other words, keep your eyes open while you roll. This will help coordinate the motion inputs of the semicircular canals and the visual inputs of your eyes.

Also, the more you roll, the less dizzy you become. Eventually, you'll get used to it. have a good day!

guest1234 02-20-2002 12:22 PM

Well, now that we've heard from the AF contingent, I guess it's all settled :D

I like the jump up and down idea, two thoughts come to mind: (1) the sudden up-down distrupts the movement of fluid in the semicircular canals and lets gravity take over in determining your position, or (2) it looks so funny the senior students can't resist talking newbies into it... I think I will go spin around some and see if it works:confused:

nice thing about flight docs, we're not too bright and easily entertained... now the rest of you get back to work, there's a war on, you know.

Jonathan 02-20-2002 01:30 PM

The dizziness from rolling does lessen over time. I have found, when dizzy from rolling, that breathing deeply and slowly and focusing on my center and "rooting" helps to return my equilibrium quickly. :)

Arianah 02-20-2002 01:41 PM

I don't know if this works (I've never gotten dizzy from forward rolls), but here's a suggestion I came across:

http://www.bodymindandmodem.com/KiEx/FrontRoll.html

"Forward Rolls.
Rolls are great for helping you learn to keep One-Point. That's because rolls make you dizzy, and keeping One-Point is the only way to stay stable when you're dizzy. . . . Tips: This exercise is meant to make you dizzy. If you keep One-Point, you will feel less dizzy. That's one of the great things about rolls - they give you feedback on whether you have the correct Ki state. When you don't have it, you feel dizzy. When you do have it, you feel stable."

Sarah

PeterR 02-20-2002 03:06 PM

Patient: Doctor - it hurts when I do this.

Doctor: Don't do it.

Sorry couldn't help myself - but it does contain a germ of truth. Back off to the point where you don't get dizzy (do less) and then over time increase.

mj 02-20-2002 08:13 PM

This is a strange one.
Many people have concern of dizziness when practising rolls, but when doing rolls repeatedly during practice,ie waza, it never seems to be a problem.

No-one ever seems to get dizzy when it is 'real', only when it is just roll after roll.

Dean H. 02-20-2002 09:14 PM

This may be too simple to mention,
but I'll risk it, because it really
seems to help me:

while rolling, I look at my belt knot.

This helps me maintain correct form and
I don't get dizzy.

That tip comes from my instructors, one
of whom joined AikiWeb today -
Grant Sensei.

Domo arigato, Sensei.

Dean
:triangle: :circle: :square:

unsound000 02-21-2002 12:37 AM

Re: Dizzy doing rolls
 
Have you tried not holding your breath? Sometimes works..


Quote:

Originally posted by Thinker
Hi..

I recently started doing Aikido, and have been experiencing dizziness and disorientation when doing forward rolls (and sometimes backward rolls... but by then I'm already dizzy from the forward rolls, so can't really tell).

Has anyone else had this problem ? How can I resolve this ? Does it just go away with time ?

Any info would be greatly appreciated !

Thanks.

-Thinker.


ian 02-21-2002 06:25 AM

I would be careful of getting into a habit of holding your breath during rolls since it may result in a winding if you are thrown hard (you need to breath out when thrown).

If you've seen those ballerinas that spin around rapidly (horizontal circles), the way they stop getting dizzy is focusing on one point on the wall, then turning their head quickly round to focus back on that point.

At the moment you are using your ears for balance (which is normal) - you need to stop doing that and get your body more dependent on your sight.

When you roll look forwards in the direction you are going to roll, then tuck your head in (as normal) and then on rising, look forwards towards the same point. Roll many, many times until you feel dizzy. Practise this until you stop feeling dizzy (if this doesn't occur you may have a medical condition!).

Anyone who has spent a long time (weeks) on a boat will know that you get over the wobbling both on land and at sea because your sense of balance gets turned off.

Ian

Brian H 02-21-2002 06:29 AM

Breathing helps
 
I think I did my sixth kyu test without breathing at all and as a result got somewhat dizzy. I thought about it alot and have worked on always exhaling whenever I do a technique or do ukemi (after all there are plenty of low coffee classes where someone can just turn your technique into their koshi (etc). I found that: 1) you don't get the wind knock out of you when you are breathing out and 2) once your lungs are empty they always manage to fill themselves back up again and keep that "breathing" thing going.

guest1234 02-21-2002 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mj
This is a strange one.
Many people have concern of dizziness when practising rolls, but when doing rolls repeatedly during practice,ie waza, it never seems to be a problem.

No-one ever seems to get dizzy when it is 'real', only when it is just roll after roll.

This is again due to stimulation of the semicircular canals, which I think are the true culprit in rolling dizziness (as opposed to not breathing and/or hyperventilating lightheadedness).:confused:

When you are practicing rolls, the ones that tend to make folks dizzy are prolonged rolling one side only. When you are training, one usually alternates sides, and the time and movement of doing the technique is interspersed between the actual roll, disrupting the continuous movement of fluid in the semicircular canal. Hmmm, I wonder if there is a paper in this:rolleyes:

guest1234 02-21-2002 08:27 AM

And while I am a big fan of avoiding working through pain, I tend to believe this dizziness (if it is dizziness and not lightheadedness) only gets better when you train your body to supress the inputs from your ear. This means rolling more, but not to the point you are so unsteady in rolling you fall and hurt yourself.

Now, if you are instead lightheaded, it can be that you need more water (drink more water), that you are holding your breath (breathe), or that you are a bit out of shape and are hyperventilating (work on gradually increasing your exercise tolerance).

shihonage 02-21-2002 12:25 PM

(pictures a shaky, hyperventilating guy who rolls while holding his breath and clutching a water bottle in one hand)

Oh wait, that's me.:grr:

guest1234 02-21-2002 01:24 PM

I would have thought you were advanced enough to roll with a glass of water...:p

ndiegel 02-21-2002 08:09 PM

I try to relax completely, while pushing out on an invisible bubble. This way, my energy is in a circle, and so am I. Being a beginner still (isn't everybody though?) My technique isn't great, so I still get dizzy. I'd say that time is the best antidote for dizziness. :)

Noah


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