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-   -   Kote gaeshi: method of application (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15489)

John Matsushima 12-14-2008 09:39 AM

Kote gaeshi: method of application
 
In my experience, I've encountered two primary methods of applying kote gaeshi; one in which nage goes for the pain (and snaps the wrist), and the second which nage uses dynamics and connection to get a good throw. In the first, I have chosen to do breakfalls to avoid the broken wrist, whereas in the second, I felt like I was made to do a breakfall. I have held the assumption that if the wrist was broken, then the connection would also be broken along with the ability to fell the uke, like trying pick up something with a broken spoon. Basically, I think that you can't throw uke or make him fall if you break his wrist outright.

I think the first method is incorrect, unless you are trying to break the wrist; but then I consider what happens next since uke has not fallen and I am standing in front of him with my whole side open.

I prefer the second method which fells the uke instead. I don't think that kote gaeshi was meant in Aikido for breaking the attacker's wrist, but is more efficient as a throw.

A big problem I think is that many people don't know the difference, and when uke doesn't jump into a breakfall fast enough, they end up with injury.

Actually, I know some people who use the pain application (A.K.A "Move it or lose it") in all of their techniques, this is just one example.

What do you think? Do you think that the uke with fall as a result of a broken wrist? What do you teach? What do you practice?

sorokod 12-14-2008 02:42 PM

Re: Kote gaeshi: method of application
 
Quote:

I prefer the second method which fells the uke instead...
If you can thoroughly vet all your nages before training, you can be as relaxed and have as fun ukemi as you like. Heck, if the nage is extra nice, you may not have to take ukemi at all!

grondahl 12-14-2008 02:54 PM

Re: Kote gaeshi: method of application
 
So you prefer uke to jump in to tobu ukemi out of fear of injury instead of nage learning how to create kuzushi and actually take uke down?

Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 221077)
If you can thoroughly vet all your nages before training, you can be as relaxed and have as fun ukemi as you like. Heck, if the nage is extra nice, you may not have to take ukemi at all!


sorokod 12-14-2008 02:57 PM

Re: Kote gaeshi: method of application
 
The uke should train to be able to handle anything thrown his way. He/she may not achieve this, but train this way nevertheless.

Voitokas 12-14-2008 03:07 PM

Re: Kote gaeshi: method of application
 
When I throw kotegaeshi I as often don't bring my second hand to the locked hand, but just drop the forearm with my second hand to throw uke. Their center is usually most of the way over their wrist anyway, and it only takes a little to throw them. The "wrist breaker" doesn't seem like a very constructive way to practise. That said, as uke, I am always half-expecting it and ready to jump into a high fall to save my wrist, especially when working with sort-of-new people...

grondahl 12-14-2008 03:08 PM

Re: Kote gaeshi: method of application
 
So how would you train to handle the throw 2:34 in this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqOlH...eature=related

More on topic: I really dont see how the original question calls for an answer about lazy ukemi. Personally I feel that smooth waza with kuzushi is the way to go, If uke can make a breakfall on kotegaeshi he can also escape or counter the waza.

sorokod 12-14-2008 03:42 PM

Re: Kote gaeshi: method of application
 
Quote:

So how would you train to handle the throw 2:34 in this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqOlH...eature=related
Umm... better if one wanted to stick with that teacher.

mathewjgano 12-14-2008 05:32 PM

Re: Kote gaeshi: method of application
 
Quote:

John Matsushima wrote: (Post 221055)
...I have held the assumption that if the wrist was broken, then the connection would also be broken along with the ability to fell the uke, like trying pick up something with a broken spoon. Basically, I think that you can't throw uke or make him fall if you break his wrist outright.

I may be wrong, but I think you can still control uke's center once you've broken the wrist because it's still attached by way of sinew and muscle. It just becomes more fluid. Unless the part you're holding on to breaks off I don't see how the connection is necessarily broken just because the bone(s) are separated.

Voitokas 12-14-2008 06:33 PM

Re: Kote gaeshi: method of application
 
Quote:

Matthew Gano wrote: (Post 221087)
I may be wrong, but I think you can still control uke's center once you've broken the wrist because it's still attached by way of sinew and muscle. It just becomes more fluid. Unless the part you're holding on to breaks off I don't see how the connection is necessarily broken just because the bone(s) are separated.

And even if it does break off I suppose one could beat uke about the head with the hand until he or she falls down!:p

Diane Stevenson 12-15-2008 10:49 AM

Re: Kote gaeshi: method of application
 
Last Tuesday we spent most of class working the minutae of kote gaeshi, slowly slowly slowly. No momentum, so no opportunity to gloss over holes in technique.

What I found was, as usual, it wasn't a case of gaining compliance thru pain, but using conjective locking to take uke's center. There's a point, if you have taken the slack out of uke's wrist, and you've got control of the forearm, that uke's elbow has to kink out, his shoulder drops , and his center HAS to move such that he is no longer strong and balanced. Then you just put him where you want him.

Sure, if he gives you lots of momentum to work with, it flows beautifully into a breakfal. Or with little momentum, you can drop him straight down WITH THE SAME AMOUNT OF CONTROL.

IMHO gaining compliance thru pain is the same as muscling thru a technique: it's not the Aikido I train to achieve, and if I rely on it, it will fail me if I ever need to use my art in a RL defense situation.

Diane Stevenson 12-15-2008 11:17 AM

Re: Kote gaeshi: method of application
 
After re-reading everything a few more thoughts.

First, sorry if I came across somewhat self-righteous. I don't have much of a sense of humor before my first cup of coffee. :D

Second,
Quote:

So how would you train to handle the throw 2:34 in this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqOlH...eature=related
AKKK. well, to the credit of both, uke walked away, if a bit loopy. That was one heckofa breakfall. I have no idea how to train for that. :p

Second. How would the "break-the-wrist" approach work with uke? Well, if I'm uke, you might well break my wrist: I've really flexible wrists (sensei calls me "Gumby" once in a while), and I often don't feel pain till the very last, then it comes on very fast. I probably would never train with you again. If you're defending yourself against someone who's high on crystal meth, they might not notice that you've broken their wrist and fail to fall down. If your uke is a big brawny experienced fighter, he may get in a few shots with his other weapons, since you haven't broken his balance before you break his wrist, or he may be able to muscle out of it. Or if you do break his wrist and get to walk away, his buddies will probably come after you with worse for breaking their buddy's wrist. People tend to take that kind of damage more seriously than a simple humiliation.

sorokod 12-15-2008 12:00 PM

Re: Kote gaeshi: method of application
 
On the proverbial "street", the execution that really takes the ukes center will most likely result in a cracked skull. Just another thing to consider.

Amir Krause 12-16-2008 09:33 AM

Re: Kote gaeshi: method of application
 
Quote:

Diane Stevenson wrote: (Post 221143)
After re-reading everything a few more thoughts.

since you haven't broken his balance before you break his wrist, or he may be able to muscle out of it.

The way I learn indicates most of the techniques are intended to break one joint or another, not just Kote-Gaishi. This does not mean giving up on the Kuzushi, nor giving up your connection to Uke.
One does not have to coome instead of the other.

First achieve Kuzushi, then perform the technique correctly, in a manner which places your body against his weak point. And if you start to lose the connection, move on to another technique.
So if somethng got broken and no longer provides a connection, move up towards his center and continue, until he no longer threatens you.

Amir

mathewjgano 12-16-2008 01:02 PM

Re: Kote gaeshi: method of application
 
Quote:

Jeremy Morrison wrote: (Post 221093)
And even if it does break off I suppose one could beat uke about the head with the hand until he or she falls down!:p

I just had a new version of the famous scene in The Presidio pop into my head:uch: . In case you're not familiar: Sean Connery uses his thumb to beat a guy up...and his weaker of the two at that!

mwible 12-16-2008 10:07 PM

Re: Kote gaeshi: method of application
 
I practice it in the 2nd way you described, where you have Kuzushi and you lead and cut and uke falls as a result of your throw. And then after he is on the ground you decide what to do with him.

But if he has a knife or is using deadly force/ intent (assuming i am lucky/ fast enought to be able to gain control of him) then i would just go ahead and snap his wrist and sweep his legs out from under him; and pin him and then call the cops; or just leave.

mwible 12-16-2008 10:13 PM

Re: Kote gaeshi: method of application
 
Quote:

Peter Gröndahl wrote: (Post 221081)
So how would you train to handle the throw 2:34 in this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqOlH...eature=related

More on topic: I really dont see how the original question calls for an answer about lazy ukemi. Personally I feel that smooth waza with kuzushi is the way to go, If uke can make a breakfall on kotegaeshi he can also escape or counter the waza.

It looked to me like alot of flashy ukemi in that kotegaishi. Not saying that Nage didnt have perfect lead, but it seemed as though he only half applied the cut. So in effect, he didnt fully apply the technique and uke flipped over his own wrist because it looked good.

Or so it seemed to me.

-morgan


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