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Demetrio Cereijo 11-30-2008 10:03 AM

Kokyu
 
Yesterday a training partner pointed me to Nelson's "The Original Modern Reader's Japanese-English Character Dictionary: Classic Edition" (Tuttle Publishing, 2004 ISBN 0804819653, 9780804819657) entry about "kokyu".

In said entry kokyu is translated as: breath, respiration; knack, secret; tone, time; kokyu suru breathe.

(bold mine)

So he left me more confused as I usually am. If someone asks what i.e. kokyu nage means can I say it means "knack throw" or "secret throw" instead the usual "breath throw"?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Bob Blackburn 11-30-2008 05:45 PM

Re: Kokyu
 
Welcome to Japanese. :) Breath and respiration are the primary meanings. There are usually infrequently used meanings for many words.

Demetrio Cereijo 11-30-2008 06:07 PM

Re: Kokyu
 
But are those infrequently used meanings more or less appropiate than the usual one, in this case "breath"?. Was "breath throw" the chosen translation because breath is the more usual meaning of kokyu?

Anyway, I think I have to read this other thread more carefully (note to self: use search function next time).

GeneC 11-30-2008 07:27 PM

Re: Kokyu
 
According to the produers of Keijutsukai Aikido, Kokyu has been incorrectly translated to mean breath.They say the more correct meaning of the Kanji symbols for Kokyu is to be in harmony with the powers of the Universe. So, a kokyu throw would be a power throw.

Chris Li 11-30-2008 08:43 PM

Re: Kokyu
 
Quote:

Clarence Couch wrote: (Post 220303)
According to the produers of Keijutsukai Aikido, Kokyu has been incorrectly translated to mean breath.They say the more correct meaning of the Kanji symbols for Kokyu is to be in harmony with the powers of the Universe. So, a kokyu throw would be a power throw.

Here's a copy of my post to the other Kokyu thread:
Sort of - "kokyu" means "breathing" (as in "respiration"), and saying that people's "breathing" "matches" is another way of saying that they get along well together (ie, they are "in harmony"). I wouldn't read too much into it, anymore than I would to the phrase "get along like a house on fire" .
Best,

Chris

GeneC 12-03-2008 11:11 AM

Re: Kokyu
 
So it says breath and matching ( being in harmony with) their breathing? Hmmm, not harmonious life force?

ChrisHein 12-03-2008 05:36 PM

Re: Kokyu
 
All of those things point to rhythm in my opinion, which is also what I would define Aiki to be all about.

It's often said when something is "knacky" that it takes a certain rhythm. Breathing is super rhythmic, time and tone are at the core of rhythm. I don't know about secret.... Maybe added by someone who doesn't understand rhythm (Ha).

In an interview by Meik Skoss of Sawada Hanae, in Koryu Bujutsu, Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan. He asked her about aikido technique, she said: "When you speak of matching, if your kokyu, or breathing, does not match then you do not match. You are thinking merely of form, aren't you? But in order to do aiki, both your spirit and that of your partner must enter into play and then come together. When you study aiki, this is what you are studying."

Kokyu seems to be an integral part of Aiki(do) from this.

Stefan Stenudd 12-10-2008 08:31 AM

Re: Kokyu
 
Quote:

Clarence Couch wrote: (Post 220459)
So it says breath and matching ( being in harmony with) their breathing? Hmmm, not harmonious life force?

Well, the Japanese and Chinese ideas of the life force are so similar to breath that this might be kind of implied.

Erick Mead 12-10-2008 09:39 AM

Re: Kokyu
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 220478)
In an interview by Meik Skoss of Sawada Hanae, in Koryu Bujutsu, Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan. He asked her about aikido technique, she said: "When you speak of matching, if your kokyu, or breathing, does not match then you do not match. You are thinking merely of form, aren't you? But in order to do aiki, both your spirit and that of your partner must enter into play and then come together. When you study aiki, this is what you are studying."

Kokyu seems to be an integral part of Aiki(do) from this.

An excellent quote. I could not agree more. Since I just typed out where my thought is at present on ki and kokyu, interms very similar to hers, I won't belabor it, but simply cross-post:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...3&postcount=21

GeneC 12-10-2008 02:05 PM

Re: Kokyu
 
Quote:

Stefan Stenudd wrote: (Post 220821)
Well, the Japanese and Chinese ideas of the life force are so similar to breath that this might be kind of implied.

Well, I prefer to understand it as more than simply breathing and the Kokyu throw more than just the "breath throw". To me it means being in harmony with life force energy. Like Lao Tsu said," All beings support Yin and embrace Yang and the interplay between these two forces fill the Universe. Yet, only at the still, between breathing in and breathing out, can one capture these two in perfect harmony."
To me, that's Kokyu and that's where the outlet to Ki is. Now, I'll (gladly) spend the rest of my life realizing it.

Mike Sigman 12-10-2008 03:46 PM

Re: Kokyu
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 220478)
In an interview by Meik Skoss of Sawada Hanae, in Koryu Bujutsu, Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan. He asked her about aikido technique, she said: "When you speak of matching, if your kokyu, or breathing, does not match then you do not match. You are thinking merely of form, aren't you? But in order to do aiki, both your spirit and that of your partner must enter into play and then come together. When you study aiki, this is what you are studying."

Kokyu seems to be an integral part of Aiki(do) from this.

You know, I would be careful of quotes like this. I have mentioned this before a number of times, but the translations of a lot of westerners who don't really have kokyu/jin skills or understand exactly what is meant idiomatically by "ki" or words like "kokkoro" when they are used to indicate the intention-strength... those translations can be mis-leading.

In fact, pretty much the whole Chinese martial-arts world was shot in the foot for so long because of similar misunderstandings about "jin" and "energy", "qi" and "spirit", "breath", and so on. Not saying the translation is wrong, but I'd be very careful of it until I determined what the translator actually knew in terms of skills and so forth.

As we've witnessed in the last few years, there are a LOT of learned opinions by 'seniors' on simple ki/kokyu skills that have not panned out in terms of results/functional-ability. I.e., I'm saying be careful before you wander the graveyard of sayings looking for a headstone that agrees with your own perceptions. ;)

Best.

Mike Sigman

Aikibu 12-10-2008 05:48 PM

Re: Kokyu
 
Quote:

Clarence Couch wrote: (Post 220846)
Well, I prefer to understand it as more than simply breathing and the Kokyu throw more than just the "breath throw". To me it means being in harmony with life force energy. Like Lao Tsu said," All beings support Yin and embrace Yang and the interplay between these two forces fill the Universe. Yet, only at the still, between breathing in and breathing out, can one capture these two in perfect harmony."
To me, that's Kokyu and that's where the outlet to Ki is. Now, I'll (gladly) spend the rest of my life realizing it.

Concur.

William Hazen

Mike Sigman 12-10-2008 06:14 PM

Re: Kokyu
 
Quote:

Clarence Couch wrote: (Post 220846)
To me it means being in harmony with life force energy.

That sounds really good, Clarence. Could you explain to us what it means? It sounds almost Zen.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

ChrisHein 12-11-2008 10:11 AM

Re: Kokyu
 
Mike,
Maybe you should look up Meik Skoss.
www.koryu.com

Mike Sigman 12-11-2008 10:20 AM

Re: Kokyu
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 220897)
Mike,
Maybe you should look up Meik Skoss.
www.koryu.com

I know who Meik Skoss is. I can give you a number of names of experts who have written books and who "studied overseas" and so on, but we'd be getting into an "argument by authority" tangent. If you see something the Meik Skoss wrote that you agree with and which you think is pertinent to the discussion, why not state your reasoning, etc., instead of suggesting that people go "look up" someone?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Aikibu 12-11-2008 10:22 AM

Re: Kokyu
 
Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote: (Post 220860)
That sounds really good, Clarence. Could you explain to us what it means? It sounds almost Zen.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Why ask for an explaination when you already know???
Interesting...

William Hazen

Mike Sigman 12-11-2008 11:19 AM

Re: Kokyu
 
Quote:

William Hazen wrote: (Post 220900)
Why ask for an explaination when you already know???
Interesting...

William Hazen

Bye, Jun. This is the passive-aggressive stuff that just gets old.

Mike Sigman

ChrisHein 12-11-2008 05:26 PM

Re: Kokyu
 
He's the guy who wrote/translated the quote I put in above. That's why I said you should look him up, you questioned his understanding.

Mike Sigman 12-11-2008 06:45 PM

Re: Kokyu
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 220922)
He's the guy who wrote/translated the quote I put in above. That's why I said you should look him up, you questioned his understanding.

Chris, you and Meik Skoss are more than welcome to come on QiJin and give us the lowdown on internal strength, but the question still stands (and I'm off this thread and pretty much off the passive-aggressive-controlled AikiWeb, for that matter) ... I asked you functionally how it was pertinent to the discussion. If you look at my post, I caveated about Skoss and spoke in general terms. I've read Skoss' stuff, seen his videos, and I know people (experts) who know him personally. I have a good feeling for what he knows, but that STILL has nothing to do with the idea of using argument by authority as a way to argue a discussion. It's still wrong.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

C. David Henderson 12-12-2008 05:22 AM

Re: Kokyu
 
Mike,

Thanks for sticking around, even a bit.

Regards,

DH

Demetrio Cereijo 12-12-2008 09:11 PM

Re: Kokyu
 
Quote:

David Henderson wrote: (Post 220944)
Mike,

Thanks for sticking around, even a bit.

Regards,

DH

Seconded.

GeneC 12-20-2008 11:18 AM

Re: Kokyu
 
Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote: (Post 220860)
That sounds really good, Clarence. Could you explain to us what it means? It sounds almost ZenRegards,Mike Sigman

Sure, now I'm far from realizing it, my understanding is to be aware of the energy that's around us and when the "life force"energy is negative, we're aware of that and endeavor to find it's source and maybe change it (if possible) so that we're in a flow of positive energy. If we need for the energy to flow thru us (say, in the form of an explosive action), then according the Lao Tsu, "at the still point, between breathing in and breathing out, is Yin and Yang in perfect harmony" and I believe that we can summon that "life force " energy and have it flow thru us and manifest itself into that explosive action.

eyrie 12-21-2008 04:02 PM

Re: Kokyu
 
As much as I enjoy some of this vague, airy-fairy, "new-age" stuff, I don't think it'll get people very far...

Ron Tisdale 12-22-2008 10:28 AM

Re: Kokyu
 
Quote:

As much as I enjoy some of this vague, airy-fairy, "new-age" stuff, I don't think it'll get people very far...
Huh, in fact, I'm sure it won't.

But the ones who actually seem to be able to DO keep getting blasted, so one wonders how long they will keep coming back. Oh Well...

Best,
Ron

aikilouis 12-22-2008 03:42 PM

Re: Kokyu
 
If Mike Sigman, Dan Harden, Rob John, Toby Threadgill, George Ledyard or Ellis Amdur (and many others experienced and knowledgeable people within and outside aikido, of course) stopped sharing their findings because of the arrogance or the ignorance of some, this would be a terrible damage done to this community.

Some of us beginners follow closely what they offer, even if they are not very vocal, and are able to get past the occasional harsh judgements. After all, Morihei Ueshiba or Sokaku Takeda were not famous for being very diplomatic.

I don't want valuable exchange and information here in Aikiweb be replaced by "aikido is whatever you decide to do", "my sensei is more badass than yours" or other types of nonsense.


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