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-   -   to be imparted by oral instruction... (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15331)

Nathan Wallace 11-02-2008 10:19 AM

to be imparted by oral instruction...
 
I was rereading "Budo" the other day and came across section 49 I believe "the method of developing arm power" which says simply "to be imparted by oral instruction", so I asked my Sensei, but he did not know; and neither did any of the shodan. So I was hoping someone might have the answer here.
arigato gozaimasu

Walker 11-02-2008 04:44 PM

Re: to be imparted by oral instruction...
 
Quote:

Paul Wallace wrote: (Post 218963)
I was rereading "Budo" the other day and came across section 49 I believe "the method of developing arm power" which says simply "to be imparted by oral instruction", so I asked my Sensei, but he did not know; and neither did any of the shodan. So I was hoping someone might have the answer here.
arigato gozaimasu

Please see "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" section of AikiWeb. :straightf

Nathan Wallace 11-02-2008 05:13 PM

Re: to be imparted by oral instruction...
 
As in "Budo" by Morihei Ueshiba. I am sorry i did not specify.

Pauliina Lievonen 11-03-2008 01:25 AM

Re: to be imparted by oral instruction...
 
That's why Doug used the smiley he did...,

kvaak
Pauliina

gdandscompserv 11-03-2008 07:23 AM

Re: to be imparted by oral instruction...
 
Quote:

Doug Walker wrote: (Post 218973)
Please see "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" section of AikiWeb. :straightf

:freaky:

Ron Tisdale 11-03-2008 07:34 AM

Re: to be imparted by oral instruction...
 
Look in any of Gozo Shioda's books under Hiriki no Yosei (elbow power). That will give you one aikido viewpoint on the subject. It's just a start, that by itself will not give you enough information.

Add to that anything you can find on correct ways to do the rowing exercise using internal mechanics as opposed to just shoulder and arm strength.

Best,
Ron

Nathan Wallace 11-03-2008 08:50 AM

Re: to be imparted by oral instruction...
 
Quote:

Pauliina Lievonen wrote: (Post 218992)
That's why Doug used the smiley he did...,

kvaak
Pauliina

:confused: was it a joke or is that not concidered aikido?
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote: (Post 218998)
Look in any of Gozo Shioda's books under Hiriki no Yosei (elbow power). That will give you one aikido viewpoint on the subject. It's just a start, that by itself will not give you enough information.

Add to that anything you can find on correct ways to do the rowing exercise using internal mechanics as opposed to just shoulder and arm strength.

Best,
Ron

thanks for the reply...why was it to be imparted only by oral tradition?

Walker 11-03-2008 10:23 AM

Re: to be imparted by oral instruction...
 
I'm sorry, I think I was a bit too obtuse. It was a "serious joke" in that the area where the things that you are asking about are discussed is the non-aikido area.

I think you were correct to ask your teacher, but you also illustrate the difficulty in that there was no answer there for you. That leaves you in a position where you now want something that is not taught in your particular dojo.

This conundrum has been discussed at length over the past few years. Various answers and solutions have been proposed.

Ron Tisdale 11-03-2008 01:54 PM

Re: to be imparted by oral instruction...
 
Quote:

Paul Wallace wrote: (Post 219005)
thanks for the reply...why was it to be imparted only by oral tradition?

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say it is partially a remnant of times past, during which "secrets of the ryu" were not spoken of openly, and certainly not written down...and partially just the practical difficulties of imparting that kind of knowledge. Please understand that Aikido is certainly not a koryu, but it does carry some themes from that style of martial art, especially in it's early days, when the connection with Daito ryu was very strong.

I think you are going to find a lot of things in aikido that are either left kind of fuzzy, or even sometimes seemingly flat out contradictory. People either find ways to reconcile these things for themselves (or just live with the contradictions), or they lean on others to do it for them. I recommend doing it for yourself. With a certain amount of learning to live with the contradictions. ;)

Best,
Ron

Nathan Wallace 11-03-2008 02:12 PM

Re: to be imparted by oral instruction...
 
Thank you very much. I understand the joke now. As for it not being in my teachers curriculum, we have some things that i thought might be what O'sensei was reffering to, but wasn't sure. the major obstical i have encountered in my dojo is that we have a few exercizes and methods of movement that have not been completely(if at all) explained which means they aren't always done with the right feeling and purpose. So through my own study i have learned the reasons for doing these things. For instance, we do use the "elbow power" described by Mr. Tisdale (thanks again sir) however it was never taught to us as any type of exercize 'for' elbow power, it was simply how we moved. I've never seen the movement performed for its own sake though i have done it thousands of times. Am i making sense?

Nathan Wallace 11-03-2008 02:24 PM

Re: to be imparted by oral instruction...
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote: (Post 219017)
If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say it is partially a remnant of times past, during which "secrets of the ryu" were not spoken of openly, and certainly not written down...and partially just the practical difficulties of imparting that kind of knowledge. Please understand that Aikido is certainly not a koryu, but it does carry some themes from that style of martial art, especially in it's early days, when the connection with Daito ryu was very strong.

I think you are going to find a lot of things in aikido that are either left kind of fuzzy, or even sometimes seemingly flat out contradictory. People either find ways to reconcile these things for themselves (or just live with the contradictions), or they lean on others to do it for them. I recommend doing it for yourself. With a certain amount of learning to live with the contradictions. ;)

Best,
Ron

Thank you again Mr. Tisdale. The contradictions I have encountered don't bother me, and the "secrets of the ryu" stuff and the fuzzy stuff only seem to me to be barriers to get through to test oneself. It's like forcing us to figure it out for ourselves I guess. It's alright with me. And to be honest i understand 'discretion' in teaching Budo.

Charles Hill 11-03-2008 02:37 PM

Re: to be imparted by oral instruction...
 
Hi Paul,

I don't have the answer, but I know where you might be able to find out. The English version of Budo was translated by John Stevens and while translating it, he often visited and got help on the book from his teacher, Rinjiro Shirata. Shirata Sensei was a student to and an assistant instructor for Morihei Ueshiba during the time the book was put together. Undoubtably John Stevens asked Rinjiro Shirata about that sentence.

I understand that Prof. Stevens occasionally does seminars on the east coast. (Ron would be the one to ask about that.) If you ask him, I am sure he would give you a straight answer.

Charles

Walker 11-03-2008 02:57 PM

Re: to be imparted by oral instruction...
 
Saito sensei says it is morotodori kokyuho in his commentary on Budo BTW, but he also adds that "there are various other practices to develop elbow power besides this technique." I would think that a pure kokyu "agete" suwariwaza kokyuho would be another good one as #49 sits right next to other more jujutsu SWkokyuho examples.

Allen Beebe 11-03-2008 04:20 PM

Re: to be imparted by oral instruction...
 
I had the pleasure of being present both at both Shirata sensei's house and in his office at the Budokan (I thought my head was going to go through the wall in that three tatami area! But Shirata sensei l dropped me like a stone and landed me like a feather!) when Shirata sensei went over Budo from cover to cover to aid Prof. Stevens' translation of Budo.

You have to understand that Shirata sensei may have said something like, "That's elbow power." with the addition of a gesture and left it at that as we trained in that sort of thing regularly.

If one were to translate the book Budo or Budo Renshu more or less literally it leaves questions about referents unanswered (remember that those books were intended for O-sensei's students not for a general audience.) If one were to translate the book Budo or Budo Renshu with detailed explanation the books would necessarily be much, much larger and that would still assume that the translator knew what O-sensei's original intent and interpretations were . . . which, ironically, almost always leads one into areas of much contestation and acrimony.

BTW, Kuden is often used to cover those areas that the author decides CAN NOT be adequately described in a written format. The implication (previous to telephony etc.) was that if you could tell a student you could show them as well AND test that they understood what you intended to communicate.

So there you go again, another circle back to "It has to be felt." Once everyone is "on the same page" then cryptic communication found in densho and the like can be effectively used . . . even then the stuff dies out though. Many Koryu are proof enough of that.

All the best,
Allen

Quote:

Charles Hill wrote: (Post 219022)
Hi Paul,

I don't have the answer, but I know where you might be able to find out. The English version of Budo was translated by John Stevens and while translating it, he often visited and got help on the book from his teacher, Rinjiro Shirata. Shirata Sensei was a student to and an assistant instructor for Morihei Ueshiba during the time the book was put together. Undoubtably John Stevens asked Rinjiro Shirata about that sentence.

I understand that Prof. Stevens occasionally does seminars on the east coast. (Ron would be the one to ask about that.) If you ask him, I am sure he would give you a straight answer.

Charles


Allen Beebe 11-03-2008 04:23 PM

Re: to be imparted by oral instruction...
 
Doug,

Obtuse:

1 annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand : he wondered if the doctor was being deliberately obtuse. See note at stupid .
• difficult to understand : some of the lyrics are a bit obtuse.
2 (of an angle) more than 90° and less than 180°.
• not sharp-pointed or sharp-edged; blunt.

Abstruse

adjective
difficult to understand; obscure : an abstruse philosophical inquiry. See note at obscure .

The friend the teacher,
Allen

Walker 11-03-2008 07:09 PM

Re: to be imparted by oral instruction...
 
Gosh, I didn't even need to come to class. Nice catch. You know how I like to conflate sound alikes.
BTW I can be annoyingly insensitive too!

Allen Beebe 11-03-2008 10:07 PM

Re: to be imparted by oral instruction...
 
Quote:

Doug Walker wrote: (Post 219041)
BTW I can be annoyingly insensitive too!

Now I think you are conflating your personality with mine! :p

Study, study, study!,
Allen

Ron Tisdale 11-04-2008 07:22 AM

Re: to be imparted by oral instruction...
 
Hi Paul,

Mr. Tisdale is my Dad! Just Ron will do. Glad to be of some help...I think Allen would definately *show* you more of this subject quite well on the mat. Read his posts carefully (and Doug's).

Stevens Sensei has come and gone to the East Coast already, but if you email me through my profile here, I will try to remember to alert you next fall when he will hopefully return (usually in October now).

Best,
Ron (missed him myself this year due to work and family, but I hear he is doing well)

C. David Henderson 11-04-2008 09:03 AM

Re: to be imparted by oral instruction...
 
Quote:

Paul Wallace wrote: (Post 219020)
Thank you very much. I understand the joke now. As for it not being in my teachers curriculum, we have some things that i thought might be what O'sensei was reffering to, but wasn't sure. the major obstical i have encountered in my dojo is that we have a few exercizes and methods of movement that have not been completely(if at all) explained which means they aren't always done with the right feeling and purpose. So through my own study i have learned the reasons for doing these things. For instance, we do use the "elbow power" described by Mr. Tisdale (thanks again sir) however it was never taught to us as any type of exercize 'for' elbow power, it was simply how we moved. I've never seen the movement performed for its own sake though i have done it thousands of times. Am i making sense?

FWIW, this makes sense to me. It also sounds like what you discovered for yourself, and are articulating in this thread, articulates in turn with what some very knowledgeable people are saying to you.

Sounds like your study was fruitful.

DH

Carsten Möllering 11-05-2008 01:19 AM

Re: to be imparted by oral instruction...
 
We are told 49 ist about tanren uchi, ken and jo suburi and things like that.

Carsten

SeiserL 11-05-2008 07:20 AM

Re: to be imparted by oral instruction...
 
IMHO, the old styles hide everything in plain sight and the techniques must be stolen not explained.

You are probably right, that though not orally explained, it is in the way you are taught to move.

I could hazard a guess that arm power refers to the "extension of ki" (intent) into and connecting to your uke's center through ground force into your hips and through the "unbendable arm" while maintaining your structural alignment with your elbows extended, down, and in with your hands on your centerline while you move as one relax flowing body including your uke. Its a guess that was not obtained through oral instructions, so probably not what you are looking for.

Tell Mark and Sonya "hi" from an old kohai.

Nathan Wallace 11-05-2008 04:56 PM

Re: to be imparted by oral instruction...
 
hai, Seiser Sensei, Sensei speaks well of you and very often.


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