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-   -   Aikido and Shoplifting? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15303)

Antonio Hudson 10-27-2008 12:03 PM

Aikido and Shoplifting?
 
Alright, so here is the scenario I just watched. I work inside a mall and right in front of me is a trendy kids clothing store. I just watched as mall security had to "escort" a couple of women who were apparently shoplifting at the store. One of these women got very loud and confrontational and the security guard proceeded to push her against a wall and raise his hand as if to slap her. She quieted down some, he didn't hit her. The cops came and the usual process of finding out exactly what happened ensued.

So here is my question to some of you law enforcement guys. As far as I know security guards who are not police officers are pretty useless (in law terms) when it comes to actual physical confrontations. True? Furthermore the training they are given tends to be useless in general, or so it would seem to me. What is the best way to deal with something like this? I understand the situation could have been mitigated much earlier, but lets start at the point where you have a loud woman screaming and cursing and waving her hands in the air in the middle of a mall full of people. Security wants her quiet and out of there quickly, but at the same time you don't want people to to think something excessive was done (two customers at my store were later commenting on how the security guard had been completely out of line for pushing this woman against the wall and almost hitting her). Thoughts?

Voitokas 10-27-2008 07:31 PM

Re: Aikido and Shoplifting?
 
I would think that being a good store security guard would involve more interpersonal confrontation skills than martial ones. I know that this is true for a lot of police work - aikido's habits of friendly engagement help to put people more at ease than some other approaches I'm sure we've all seen... I guess what I mean is that, once you've gotten to the shouting, maybe the situation's already bad.

Michael Hackett 10-28-2008 09:24 AM

Re: Aikido and Shoplifting?
 
Each state is a little different in regards to levels of training and authority for security guards. Here in California they receive a short training course on laws of arrest, search and seizure, defensive tactics and firearms and then are licensed by the State. In effect they are actually private citizens and have virtually no peace officer powers. Their primary purpose is to serve as a deterrent, and to observe and report events to law enforcement. In the scenario you described, the officer's conduct was probably lawful from a California standard in that she was reportedly making a scene and waving her arms around which could be interpreted as an immediate threat perhaps. Whether it would be lawful is one consideration in context and whether it was the best course of action is yet another. Choosing to go "hands on" as a security guard is always a dangerous decision in both legal and practical terms.

Joyce Lunas 10-29-2008 04:45 PM

Re: Aikido and Shoplifting?
 
Quote:

Antonio Hudson wrote: (Post 218664)
Alright, so here is the scenario I just watched. I work inside a mall and right in front of me is a trendy kids clothing store. I just watched as mall security had to "escort" a couple of women who were apparently shoplifting at the store. One of these women got very loud and confrontational and the security guard proceeded to push her against a wall and raise his hand as if to slap her. She quieted down some, he didn't hit her. The cops came and the usual process of finding out exactly what happened ensued.

So here is my question to some of you law enforcement guys. As far as I know security guards who are not police officers are pretty useless (in law terms) when it comes to actual physical confrontations. True? Furthermore the training they are given tends to be useless in general, or so it would seem to me. What is the best way to deal with something like this? I understand the situation could have been mitigated much earlier, but lets start at the point where you have a loud woman screaming and cursing and waving her hands in the air in the middle of a mall full of people. Security wants her quiet and out of there quickly, but at the same time you don't want people to to think something excessive was done (two customers at my store were later commenting on how the security guard had been completely out of line for pushing this woman against the wall and almost hitting her). Thoughts?

Ok. Let's start with the facts:
0. I am NOT an expert in any way. My only experience has been that of several seminars i've attended, whose subject was "Implementation of deadly/otherwise effective force on various scenarios and assailants" and the ones teaching us have always been people with solid military and/or police background. And i live in Greece, so many of the scenarios you all talk about simply do NOT apply to my country.

1. The woman was IN FACT stealing.
2. Not only did she take (or tried to) sth NOT her's, but she REFUSED to take responsibility about her own action AND yelled about it to a security guard...
3. ...whose job is to protect the store he watches from things just like this.
4. Aikido is a good way to immobilize and teach some sense into sb and in a "mild" way (considering other deadly martial arts and military/police immobilization techniques...)
5. There is always another way, but that scenario stands when the one "to blame" is NOT reacting (and in a BAD, unbecoming way), which could be CONVERSATION, for instance. But we hear that the woman wasn't that kind of person.

I'm sure some other aikidokas among us will chip in more valuable info, but for what it's worth these are mine.

With respect,
Joyce


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