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-   -   Poll: Do you think ukemi skills and ukemi techniques are covered sufficiently at your aikido dojo? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1526)

AikiWeb System 02-10-2002 01:01 AM

AikiWeb Poll for the week of February 10, 2002:

Do you think ukemi skills and ukemi techniques are covered sufficiently at your aikido dojo?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Yes
  • No
Here are the current results.

mj 02-10-2002 07:10 PM

If ukemi are always practised on tatami, generally from the same set of techniques, there can be no question that they are not 'sufficient'.

Having said that, they are sufficient for practice.
And it's better to have some practice rather than none.

ian 02-11-2002 05:06 AM

Sometimes though, people can retain bad habits in ukemi if there is not enough practise 'cos the Nage is usually concentrating on their technique too much to notice these in the uke.

For example, it is common for beginners not to use their knee when rising from a forward ukemi, but to roll up using both feet (which is maybe more comfotable, but gives a less stable rising position, should you be attacked while rising). Reverse ukemis are often done on the wrong leg during a throw as well (making it less comfortable).

Also, many people (myself included) have a tendency to break-fall rather than ukemi. Excessive use of the break-fall tends to make you feel very dizzy after a few days of practise (due to the shock of the fall). Being confident in ukemi and only breakfalling when absolutely necessary is beneficial.

To me ukemi is very important 'cos its about keeping your center.

Ian

erikmenzel 02-11-2002 05:28 AM

Ukemi, the misunderstood role of Uke
 
I know that most people when they see the words ukemi skills and ukemi techniques immediately think of high breakfall, flipping and long distance bouncing. These are of course very nice skills to have and for a lot of people certainly help their confidence and ego on the tatami. They are however not the essence of ukemi.

What does constitute good ukemi?
Unfortunately for a lot of people, the essence of ukemi is not equal to looking good and doing high breakfalls. The essence of ukemi is being a good and safe partner.

How does being a good partner work? Well first of all there has to be a complete trust and feeling of safety between nage and uke, this means being sincere in your training and definitly no funny stunts in your training. How else can nage expect uke to be willing to give everything in training for nage to use? Still this is very difficult. Complete trust is hard to gain and easily lost.

So uke has to give everything? But how? First of all uke has to really attack. This is for a lot of people a problem, not because they dont want to, but because the have not been exposed to this part of ukemi yet. (If you are attacking, you are doing something more than just holding nage's hand, you would "in reallife" continue and do something with this hand. Besides, you are attacking the whole person, not just the hand.) This means uke's intention does not stop. Uke's attention goes forward and keeps on going forward through the entire technique.

Here we immediately arive at one of the most difficult things to do for uke, or so it seems. Uke can only give and work with what is actually happening at that point. Uke has to live in the present, no psychic trics like knowing what is going to happen are allowed. Uke is attacking and can not anticipate on something that has not happened yet!!!
But uke knows what technique is being done, a lot of people will comment. Is that true? Does uke know what is going to happen? Can uke predict the future? Does uke have any guarantee that what he thinks is going to happen, actually will happen? No, uke does not have this guarantee. So uke only has the present to work with and this means uke can only do ukemi in the present, not in the futur.

So uke is working in the present, but how. Nage will use uke's attack/intention and start some movement of his own. Uke tries to be very sensitive to this movement and follows it so closely that the thin line between nage doing it and uke doing it gets blurred, but without taking over. At this point both uke and nage are learning about the essence of the techniques they are doing.

With uke only working in the present, it means that he can not set himself up for some high breakfall in advance. Therefor uke can only do the breakfall that happens at that point, which only rarely is going to be some spectacular high breakfall.

Ukemi is hard work and should be practiced seriously. If you ever have to choose between not being uke or not being nage, I would suggest not being nage. While taking ukemi you have so many different things to learn, things you can also use when being nage.

Arianah 02-11-2002 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ian
For example, it is common for beginners not to use their knee when rising from a forward ukemi, but to roll up using both feet (which is maybe more comfotable, but gives a less stable rising position, should you be attacked while rising).
People think that coming up on both feet is easier? :freaky:

deepsoup 02-11-2002 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arianah

People think that coming up on both feet is easier? :freaky:

As a Shodokan bunny, with some experience of Judo, I definitely do. Both the Kodokan and the Shodokan teach it that way.

I sometimes try to do the 'one knee down' thing when I train with my local traditional style (Kai Shin Kai) dojo, but as soon as I'm actually being thrown rather than just practicing ukemi, I automatically revert to coming up on both feet, seems to be hard-wired. :)

Sean
x

Thalib 02-12-2002 01:06 AM

hmmm
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Arianah


People think that coming up on both feet is easier? :freaky:

Not easier... it hurts less. But if you got the principle down, you need not be "coming up on both feet".

In the dojo, I was taught to get directly to a standing position. But then, when I was practicing with Ki-no-Kenkyu-Kai, it is told that I shouldn't be directly standing up.

The principle of ukemi waza is basically the same as any waza:
- Keep centered (one point - itten)
- Keep focus and readiness (zanshin)
- Keep one mind and body
- Keep safe
- If you're into it, keep the flow of Ki.

What is the point of coming on both feet if you could fall down again by a light touch.The purpose of being in a shiko position first after an ukemi waza, is to regain all the principles above, that is if it was lost during the ukemi. If one could come up on both feet while keeping the principles, than do so.

Greg Jennings 02-12-2002 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AikiWeb System
AikiWeb Poll for the week of February 10, 2002:

Do you think ukemi skills and ukemi techniques are covered sufficiently at your aikido dojo?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Yes
  • No
Here are the current results.

How many minutes of class does your dojo spend on organized ukemi drills?

How many ukemi drills can you remember off the top of your head that were practiced at your dojo in the last month?

Any drills other than front and back rolls? E.g., high falls, koshinage ukemi, cross foot rolls, "the flop", etc.

Does your dojo have explicit ukemi requirements beyond front and back rolls for _upper_ kyu grades?

More as I think of them...

Regards,

ian 02-13-2002 09:23 AM

I've done ukemi drills, striking drills, moving off centre line drills, 'technique drills'. There never seems enough time to do everything; at the end of the day I just have to accept it takes a while to get good at aikido.

My main concern as far as teaching ukemi is that they could go to any dojo and be thrown around for long periods of time without hurting themselves.

Ian

cbrf4zr2 02-13-2002 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Greg Jennings


Does your dojo have explicit ukemi requirements beyond front and back rolls for _upper_ kyu grades?


The last kyu rank we have ukemi requirements is 3rd kyu. Yoko Ukemi. I just got to...uh...demonstrate this 2 weeks ago.

phoneyman 02-13-2002 01:55 PM

K-rap. I mis-read the poll and thought it said "atemi" instead of "ukemi" and gave the wrong answer.

Anyhow, I think ukemi is covered well at my dojo as far as "receiving" is concerned.

Atemi, on the other hand, is often referred to but never practiced.

Pierre


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