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-   -   Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15242)

Ketsan 10-11-2008 08:42 AM

Koshi Nage - Distance Between Nage's Feet
 
Does anyone else do koshi nage with their feet together?

Kevin Leavitt 10-11-2008 10:11 AM

Re: Koshi Nage
 
I have done it that way for sure. Prefer to have a couple of inches between them for more stability though.

ChrisHein 10-11-2008 10:17 AM

Re: Koshi Nage
 
There are lot's of throws that can be called Koshinage. As long as they go over your hips sideways, you could call it a koshinage. So yes, and no, depending on what kind of hip throw I'm doing.

sorokod 10-11-2008 10:23 AM

Re: Koshi Nage
 
Just the Judo people who are actually doing O-Goshi and such.

sorokod 10-11-2008 11:19 AM

Re: Koshi Nage
 
Illustration:

O-Goshi (Judo) : http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PqLGjRU2kr0
Koshi-Nage (Aikido) : http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ALr8_VkM9UY from about 2:33

Carsten Möllering 10-11-2008 03:39 PM

Re: Koshi Nage
 
Quote:

Alex Lawrence wrote: (Post 217962)
Does anyone else do koshi nage with their feet together?

Yes, we do.
kihon waza says: keep your feet together.

Carsten

Flintstone 10-11-2008 04:13 PM

Re: Koshi Nage
 
Quote:

Alex Lawrence wrote: (Post 217962)
Does anyone else do koshi nage with their feet together?

Not how O'Sensei did it, then? No; feet appart.

bkedelen 10-11-2008 05:08 PM

Re: Koshi Nage
 
Saito had mentioned that the feet should not be together before he passed away.
Ikeda Sensei's Koshi video shows some wonderful throws that end with the feet together, including a sick jo takeaway that I have never seen anyone else even attempt.
It appears to be one of those technical details that offers endless debate and minimal significance.

sorokod 10-12-2008 07:23 AM

Re: Koshi Nage
 
Quote:

Benjamin Edelen wrote: (Post 217981)
...
It appears to be one of those technical details that offers endless debate and minimal significance.

Why would a technical detail of a technique be insignificant? On the lowest level a technique is a collection of details, stringing those details together exposes the logic of the technique, different details == different techniques.

ChrisHein 10-12-2008 11:07 AM

Re: Koshi Nage
 
Quote:

Benjamin Edelen wrote: (Post 217981)
It appears to be one of those technical details that offers endless debate and minimal significance.

Ha, I really liked this quote, Then below that I see:

Quote:

Why would a technical detail of a technique be insignificant?
I see the validity in both statements, but I still tend to agree with the first much more.

It is very reasonable to say that doing something a different way, makes it a different technique, because that is a true statement. However It's also just a name, that points to a thing, and not actually the thing itself.

For example; Koshi nage is a very general term, it simply means "hip throw". That name points to a thing, the thing is someone being thrown by way of the hip. Now off the top of my head, I can think of about 5 distinctly different ways to accomplish that task. Those ways are all different and so might be the names by which I call them. But the end result is the same; someone got thrown by way of my hip.

We could debate the distinctions about those "techniques", but really they are all just hip tosses. I guess it depends whether your interest is in the overall effect or the specifics that led up to that effect.

sorokod 10-12-2008 12:22 PM

Re: Koshi Nage
 
Quote:

"For example; Koshi nage is a very general term, it simply means "hip throw". That name points to a thing, the thing is someone being thrown by way of the hip. Now off the top of my head, I can think of about 5 distinctly different ways to accomplish that task. Those ways are all different and so might be the names by which I call them. But the end result is the same; someone got thrown by way of my hip."
I do not think that the fact that a technique has a descriptive name gives you a license to make it up. Let me rephrase it, the name denotes a specific technique. You can make up stuff five or 25 ways that satisfying the name, that does not make them valid Aikido. O-Goshi is a great Judo technique (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9UZ02P8M10c) but wearing a hakama while doing it does not make it Aikido. Here for example http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9UZ02P8M10c (starting at about 3:40), Saito demonstrates, why is important to be able to turn towards your blind spot once the throw is completed. This approach allows for multiple attackers and indicates true Aikido quality.

Quote:

"I guess it depends whether your interest is in the overall effect or the specifics that led up to that effect."
You are right, in one case you get cut from behind by the other attacker and in the other you do not.

jennifer paige smith 10-12-2008 01:06 PM

Re: Koshi Nage
 
I've seen koshi-nage adequately demonstrated and rationalized in several forms.

I accept the founders words that aikido is the form of no form based on my observations and experiences of nature and my practice in aikido.
I've also seen waves form and break in many shapes and sizes. They were all waves.

But like surfing, we've all gotta start somewhere.

sorokod 10-12-2008 01:43 PM

Re: Koshi Nage
 
I do not understand all this oceanic imagery, what are you saying?

jennifer paige smith 10-12-2008 02:36 PM

Re: Koshi Nage
 
.
Aloha,

I'll try to find another way to say it. I believe the imagery is fairly straight forward if you've spent some time in the water.

Not everyone is as fortunate as I have been to be able to be in the water and on the mat for so much accumulative time. So, I understand.

Maybe someone else who has had similar experiences could jump in..
I'll think on it some more.

Best,
Jen

sorokod 10-12-2008 03:03 PM

Re: Koshi Nage
 
Quote:

Jennifer Smith wrote: (Post 218008)
.
Aloha,

I'll try to find another way to say it. I believe the imagery is fairly straight forward if you've spent some time in the water.

Not everyone is as fortunate as I have been to be able to be in the water and on the mat for so much accumulative time. So, I understand.

Maybe someone else who has had similar experiences could jump in..
I'll think on it some more.

Best,
Jen

Oh fortunate one
Thank you for being so patient, please, there is no further need for you to meditate further on the issue.

Flintstone 10-12-2008 03:55 PM

Re: Koshi Nage
 
Quote:

Jennifer Smith wrote: (Post 218004)
I've seen koshi-nage adequately demonstrated and rationalized in several forms.

I accept the founders words that aikido is the form of no form based on my observations and experiences of nature and my practice in aikido.
I've also seen waves form and break in many shapes and sizes. They were all waves.

Bet you never saw a square wave, or one with an orange color with red dots. No, these don't exist.

You call it what you want, but you will be cut from behind if you do koshi nage like that...

:square:

jennifer paige smith 10-12-2008 04:13 PM

Re: Koshi Nage
 
Quote:

Alejandro Villanueva wrote: (Post 218012)
Bet you never saw a square wave, or one with an orange color with red dots. No, these don't exist.

You call it what you want, but you will be cut from behind if you do koshi nage like that...

:square:

And you might be a fat woman in a tutu. I've never seen you either.

I'm certain I haven't stated how I do koshi nage.

jennifer paige smith 10-12-2008 04:15 PM

Re: Koshi Nage
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 218011)
Oh fortunate one
Thank you for being so patient, please, there is no further need for you to meditate further on the issue.

And there is no need to be impolite.

Flintstone 10-12-2008 05:09 PM

Re: Koshi Nage
 
Quote:

Jennifer Smith wrote: (Post 218013)
And you might be a fat woman in a tutu. I've never seen you either.

Maybe.

Quote:

Jennifer Smith wrote: (Post 218013)
I'm certain I haven't stated how I do koshi nage.

And I'm certain I haven't stated how you do koshi nage.

jennifer paige smith 10-12-2008 06:09 PM

Re: Koshi Nage
 
Quote:

Alejandro Villanueva wrote: (Post 218012)
but you will be cut from behind if you do koshi nage like that...

:square:

My mistake.

Ketsan 10-12-2008 06:17 PM

Re: Koshi Nage
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 218005)
I do not understand all this oceanic imagery, what are you saying?

That there are many ways of doing koshi nage, but as long as certain fundamentals are kept then the technique is recognisable as koshi nage.

That's how I understood it anyway.

Flintstone 10-12-2008 06:18 PM

Re: Koshi Nage
 
Quote:

Jennifer Smith wrote: (Post 218017)
My mistake.

Sorry, I thought you were a native English speaker. For your ready reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_you .

jennifer paige smith 10-12-2008 06:51 PM

Re: Koshi Nage
 
Quote:

Alex Lawrence wrote: (Post 218019)
That there are many ways of doing koshi nage, but as long as certain fundamentals are kept then the technique is recognisable as koshi nage.

That's how I understood it anyway.

Yes. That's a good way of saying it.
Thanks,
jen

Flintstone 10-12-2008 06:56 PM

Re: Koshi Nage
 
Quote:

Alex Lawrence wrote: (Post 218019)
That there are many ways of doing koshi nage, but as long as certain fundamentals are kept then the technique is recognisable as koshi nage.

That's how I understood it anyway.

Yes, but here we're talking about Aikido's Koshi Nage in contrast to other arts' Koshi Nage(s). And one fundamental to keep is "watch your back; that foe has friends!".

Demetrio Cereijo 10-12-2008 07:16 PM

Re: Koshi Nage
 
Quote:

Alejandro Villanueva wrote: (Post 218012)
You call it what you want, but you will be cut from behind if you do koshi nage like that...

If (big If) the sword wielding unfriendly guy is behind you, but maybe he is not behind you...

Kihon Waza is not Oyo Waza.


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