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-   -   YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda Sensei as Obi Wan Kenobi (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15185)

gromph 09-29-2008 04:23 PM

YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda Sensei as Obi Wan Kenobi
 
Takeda Sensei demo showing LOTS of no touch throws and manipulations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltf6-Qqc40Y

It's interesting after reading an interview with Christian Tessier who said he basically debunks ki (on Aikido Journal??) and isn't Takeda Sensei his teacher???

Has anyone here trained with him and felt this?? Or is it just a show?

Just curious :)

salim 09-30-2008 05:46 PM

Re: YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda Sensei as Obi Wan Kenobi
 
Quote:

Mike Preradovic wrote: (Post 217200)
Takeda Sensei demo showing LOTS of no touch throws and manipulations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltf6-Qqc40Y

It's interesting after reading an interview with Christian Tessier who said he basically debunks ki (on Aikido Journal??) and isn't Takeda Sensei his teacher???

Has anyone here trained with him and felt this?? Or is it just a show?

Just curious :)

What was that awful video showing. It was terrible. I mean really, I don't blame Christian Tessier for debunking ki or silly demonstrations like that video. It's one of the main reasons people don't take Aikido serious as a means of self defense. The video looks more like children rolling around on the floor. Clownish like stunts.

raul rodrigo 09-30-2008 05:59 PM

Re: YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda Sensei as Obi Wan Kenobi
 
Quote:

Mike Preradovic wrote: (Post 217200)
It's interesting after reading an interview with Christian Tessier who said he basically debunks ki (on Aikido Journal??) and isn't Takeda Sensei his teacher???

Tissier wasn't Takeda's student. He was close to Yamaguchi, who was Takeda's teacher. But Yamaguchi never did this kind of demo. I've seen another video of Takeda in his own dojo in Kamakura where he does some more of the no touch waza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wj6HRxcJmNo

The waza start at around the 5:20 mark.

best,

R

senshincenter 09-30-2008 08:00 PM

Re: YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda Sensei as Obi Wan Kenobi
 
There are people in this forum community that train in this lineage... Why not ask them what's going on, or at least supposed to be going on, before one judges...?

Enrique Antonio Reyes 09-30-2008 08:01 PM

Re: YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda Sensei as Obi Wan Kenobi
 
Quote:

Mike Preradovic wrote: (Post 217200)
Takeda Sensei demo showing LOTS of no touch throws and manipulations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltf6-Qqc40Y

It's interesting after reading an interview with Christian Tessier who said he basically debunks ki (on Aikido Journal??) and isn't Takeda Sensei his teacher???

Has anyone here trained with him and felt this?? Or is it just a show?

Just curious :)

It's definitely a show. I just hope they take this off the web. It doesn't really help people understand what Aikido is. Judo and BJJ guys just think its hocus pocus. Honestly, when you look at this video you would probably agree with them...:yuck:

salim 09-30-2008 10:24 PM

Re: YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda Sensei as Obi Wan Kenobi
 
Quote:

David Valadez wrote: (Post 217278)
There are people in this forum community that train in this lineage... Why not ask them what's going on, or at least supposed to be going on, before one judges...?

That's not training. It looks clownish, almost like a circus act.

salim 09-30-2008 10:29 PM

Re: YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda Sensei as Obi Wan Kenobi
 
Quote:

Enrique Antonio Reyes wrote: (Post 217279)
It's definitely a show. I just hope they take this off the web. It doesn't really help people understand what Aikido is. Judo and BJJ guys just think its hocus pocus. Honestly, when you look at this video you would probably agree with them...:yuck:

I agree. Maybe the idea is to look like a super hero. Let's pretend that sensei has superman powers (adult men playing superman).

Charles Hill 09-30-2008 11:19 PM

Re: YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda Sensei as Obi Wan Kenobi
 
I liked how you can hear the cameraman laughing. If you want to understand what is going on (IMHO) look at the very first few seconds. Takeda Sensei indicates that they move the lineup over with a wave of a hand to which they quickly do so. This is the first no touch technique of the demo.

Think about this, are there any aikido teachers out there, who if they waved their hand, would not see their students reformulate the line? This would indicate that all students, whether their teacher is Obi Wan or not, are to some degree keen to move in a way that they think the teacher expects. And this would be reflected in how they take ukemi, would it not?

It also might be good to remember that the Founder believed all demos to be fake.

Charles

Carsten Möllering 10-01-2008 07:55 AM

Re: YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda Sensei as Obi Wan Kenobi
 
Quote:

Mike Preradovic wrote: (Post 217200)
It's interesting after reading an interview with Christian Tessier who said he basically debunks ki (on Aikido Journal??)

Could you explain what you mean with this?

My dictionary (Oxford) tells me that "to debunk" means
"to expose or excoriate (a claim, assertion, sentiment, etc.) as being pretentious, false, or exaggerated: to debunk advertising slogans.
to uncloak, to unmask"
That together would mean, that he talks of ki in negative way?

And that sounds realy strange to me.

Carsten

raul rodrigo 10-01-2008 08:24 AM

Re: YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda Sensei as Obi Wan Kenobi
 
If you are referring to the Guillaume Erard interview of Tissier, I think you will find he doesnt debunk ki, he says it exists and it is part of aikido technique. But he prefers not to talk about it or focus on it. He prefers to focus on the waza itself.

He says: "I have met quite a few Senseis and I must say that the ones who speak of [ki] the most are often the ones who have the poorest technique. Of course, this is not true for everybody, but Ki is not tangible. Ki is within us. There is Ki everywhere; either we know how to use it or we don’t....

To get back to Ki, I prefer not to say too much about it, as I think the discourses about this topic are often very misleading.

A.M.: Your choice is therefore to focus solely on the technique.

C.T: That is right because the technique will unlock the body! Once you have unlocked your body and removed all fears, the gesture will be fluid and this will allow more kokyu. If you add an intention to this kokyu, the Ki will naturally occur."

akiy 10-01-2008 08:38 AM

Re: YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda Sensei as Obi Wan Kenobi
 
Hi folks,

Please be careful with the tone of your postings, as some of your thoughts are being couched in rather antagonistic and personal language.

Rather, please conduct your discussions with respect for people who may hold differing opinions, experiences, and thoughts from yourself so as to welcome a meaningful and positive discussion regarding the topic from everyone.

Thank you,

-- Jun

phitruong 10-01-2008 09:14 AM

Re: YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda Sensei as Obi Wan Kenobi
 
Quote:

Enrique Antonio Reyes wrote: (Post 217279)
It's definitely a show. I just hope they take this off the web. It doesn't really help people understand what Aikido is. Judo and BJJ guys just think its hocus pocus. Honestly, when you look at this video you would probably agree with them...:yuck:

I practice Aikido and I don't understand what Aikido is. ;) I wouldn't worry about what folks think.

The other day, I pulled up to the intersection on the way home, the lights were not working. there was a guy in some sort of martial uniform stand in the middle of the intersection. he waved his arms and cars flew by in the direction his arms pointed. I thought his use of the force for no-touch waza was pretty good, impressive even. a thought occur to me that if it was a judo or a bjj guy stood in the middle of the intersection, he/she/it would be one-with-the-pavement or one-with-everything. :)

have you noticed that whenever you are doing something and you heard a hand clap, you would stop and have the urge to find a line to line-up? :D

Abasan 10-01-2008 10:52 AM

Re: YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda Sensei as Obi Wan Kenobi
 
If you have never practiced with him, don't be so quick to debunk his aikido. After all, watching movies doesn't make you an expert driver like Bourne, or a shooter like Bond... so watching high level aikido on video means nothing.

You've all done aikido for sometime now and looking back as beginners some of the throws you do so easily now must have been pretty hard to do before. Maybe even impossible? Then perhaps the awase that you see Sensei Takeda' performing appears to be impossible...yet could very well be within the realm of possibility if you know how and have practiced long enough.

To be fair, the video is rather dramatic.

ChrisMoses 10-01-2008 11:07 AM

Re: YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda Sensei as Obi Wan Kenobi
 
This was already discussed not long ago starting in post 93 of this thread.

I've trained with Takeda Sensei on a couple occasions, including at the dojo in his home, and have no reasonable response to those videos. :(

aikilouis 10-01-2008 01:13 PM

Re: YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda Sensei as Obi Wan Kenobi
 
Quote:

Christian Moses wrote: (Post 217346)
I've trained with Takeda Sensei on a couple occasions, including at the dojo in his home, and have no reasonable response to those videos. :(

I don't understand what it means. Is it that his training is radically different from what he shows in demos, or on the contrary that it is very similar and seems to provide no realistic explanation ? Or perhaps do you mean something else.

My question is genuine, I have no opinion on the subject so far.

Don_Modesto 10-01-2008 01:32 PM

Re: YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda Sensei as Obi Wan Kenobi
 
Tonic for those stricken by the absurdity of this kind of thing:

"KI" master with students:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tib2Urowsdc

"KI" master with non-believer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jf3Gc2a0_8

Tony Wagstaffe 10-01-2008 02:32 PM

Re: YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda Sensei as Obi Wan Kenobi
 
Quote:

Don J. Modesto wrote: (Post 217360)
Tonic for those stricken by the absurdity of this kind of thing:

"KI" master with students:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tib2Urowsdc

"KI" master with non-believer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jf3Gc2a0_8

Thank you for ending such an absurd thread...... When are the gullible going to wake up?..... like he did in the second video ha ha!..... I say serves himself right for deceiving others and also himself...... but the deceiving and the collusion still goes on, so its what people want to believe which goes into the realms of blind faith...... and so it goes on.... and on...... and on...... and well lets let 'em believe it if that what floats their boat..... who are we to judge eh? :D :cool:

ChrisMoses 10-01-2008 02:42 PM

Re: YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda Sensei as Obi Wan Kenobi
 
Quote:

Ludwig Neveu wrote: (Post 217358)
I don't understand what it means. Is it that his training is radically different from what he shows in demos, or on the contrary that it is very similar and seems to provide no realistic explanation ? Or perhaps do you mean something else.

My question is genuine, I have no opinion on the subject so far.

I never saw or felt anything like that on any of the instances that I've trained with him. As others have said, many of his students are very "responsive" in their ukemi, but I understand that kind of training. While it wasn't how I would arrange the relationship given the opportunity to do so, it still had the ring of truth to me. Waving hands and having people fall over is delusional and not budo (IMHO). But I'm not a shihan so what do I know? He was someone who I held very high in the Aikido pantheon, but that demo is absurd and was literally shocking for me to see. I have a very good friend who is a long time (long distance) student of Takeda sensei's and we have had a few offline talks about this demo. He chose not to enter into this conversation previously and I doubt he would now, so I'll keep his comments private. I will say that nothing that I took from that conversation changed my general view of this demo.

Jun, I hope my tone here is acceptable. Walking the fine line here between being open and honest and not sounding like a personal attack on someone or his students.

Flintstone 10-01-2008 02:53 PM

Re: YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda Sensei as Obi Wan Kenobi
 
Quote:

Ludwig Neveu wrote: (Post 217358)
I don't understand what it means. Is it that his training is radically different from what he shows in demos, or on the contrary that it is very similar and seems to provide no realistic explanation ? Or perhaps do you mean something else.

Maybe he's demonstrating fake techniques...

senshincenter 10-01-2008 03:01 PM

Re: YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda Sensei as Obi Wan Kenobi
 
Not referring to Takeda specifically...

In my experience, practitioners that end up doing this kind of demonstration almost always show signs of its possible existence in everything they do. That said, let's face it, because of Aikido's uke/nage dynamic, there are seeds of cooperation throughout most of the art (at least everywhere one is working with the uke/nage dynamic) and thus a potential for this kind of demonstration at every turn.

In my opinion, in order to capitalize upon the positive elements of the uke/nage dynamic, current instructors, and, most importantly, instructors of the future, should participate in training that does not include the uke/nage dynamic as much as in training that does.

Additionally, once an uke has moved beyond the beginner phases of ukemi, instructors should tell their uke to never throw themselves during kihon waza, saying, "Hey, if I can't throw you under these ideal conditions without your help, you should not be training here." Please don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting we include resistance within kihon waza training, but there's a lot of area between flying through the air when no leverage at all is being employed and fulfilling the energy print of a given technique when uke.

eyrie 10-01-2008 07:19 PM

Re: YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda Sensei as Obi Wan Kenobi
 
Quote:

Phi Truong wrote: (Post 217331)
I practice Aikido and I don't understand what Aikido is. ;) I wouldn't worry about what folks think.

The other day, I pulled up to the intersection on the way home, the lights were not working. there was a guy in some sort of martial uniform stand in the middle of the intersection. he waved his arms and cars flew by in the direction his arms pointed. I thought his use of the force for no-touch waza was pretty good, impressive even. a thought occur to me that if it was a judo or a bjj guy stood in the middle of the intersection, he/she/it would be one-with-the-pavement or one-with-everything. :)

have you noticed that whenever you are doing something and you heard a hand clap, you would stop and have the urge to find a line to line-up? :D

Phi, thanks for the laugh, that was damn funny! :D

I remember one time someone asked Takeda what he would do if he was physically accosted on the street. He cocked his head to the side, and raised his eyebrow with a quizzical look on his face, as if not understanding why the question was asked. Then, in the next moment, he nonchalantly replied "Run", as his lips curled up in a imperceptible smile. As he turned away, apparently bored by how the conversation was proceeding, or not... I couldn't help but smile to myself. You have to understand the context and the man himself.

As such, one should consider the fact that *maybe* he's not demonstrating "martial" application.... *maybe* he's demonstrating an "idea"... a "concept"...

Often, the trap is in thinking that since Aikido is a "martial art", that any demonstration would be something of "immediate martial value"... sometimes it's not... and mostly it's not... in fact, it's more like "never".

Look beyond "technique"... look beyond... :)


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