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deathlinenetworks 08-11-2008 10:17 AM

Christian Tissier: Ukemi
 
Question: How does Christian Tissier train his students? Their ukemi is just perfect (smooth, swift, fast, wonderful, amazing, etc) I mean, they make it looks so easy. Makes me think their tatami is made out of spring... How can we learn to fall like them? Is there any "ukemi secrets"?

rob_liberti 08-11-2008 07:04 PM

Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi
 
Of course.

Step 1, get thrown a lot by Christian Tessier
Step 2: repeat step 1 as often as possible
Step 3: get thrown a lot by people who have worked with Christian Tessier a lot
Step 4: repeat step 3 as often as possible

Rob

deathlinenetworks 08-12-2008 01:15 AM

Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi
 
when i get rich in the future, i'll fly to france just to get thrown by him and his students

Mato-san 08-12-2008 09:15 AM

Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi
 
Classic reply from Rob. I love the thread cause I find myself aspiring to take ukemi like these guys all the time.

DanielR 08-12-2008 09:38 AM

Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi
 
Improving my ukemi skills has been an obsession of mine for quite a while now, and Tissier Sensei's students are certainly up there.

I'm sure Rob's response was mostly tongue-in-cheek, but I thought I'd just offer my perspective: the "getting thrown a lot" approach has done practically nothing to improve my ukemi, especially the so-called soft high falls. I was only able to achieve noticeable progress after I got a chance to train under instructors like Frank Ostoff Sensei and Jan Nevelius Sensei who have developed, as part of their wider approach to Aikido, a clear methodology for teaching ukemi. Playing with their senior students has been a great help. Still much room for improvement :)

Interestingly, it sometimes happens that when I get thrown by a really good nage, it almost feels like a good ukemi happens by itself. But for me this only started to take place when I got some important issues of alignment, relaxation and uke-nage interaction worked out to some basic extent. The flip side of being thrown like that though is that a good nage can sometimes compensate for uke's deficient ukemi skills. So as the instructors I mentioned above emphasize, it's an important part of the learning process for the nage to gradually "let go" of the uke and let them take care of themselves.

bkedelen 08-12-2008 04:00 PM

Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi
 
If you are interested in getting high level ukemi skills, just practice rolling and falling a lot. All you really have to do is take about six years off from trying to learn how to throw and spend it on learning to fall instead. This is of great benefit to the beginner because when you get back into trying to learn how to throw, you will then be able to attract the best people as training partners.

jennifer paige smith 08-12-2008 04:06 PM

Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi
 
Quote:

Benjamin Edelen wrote: (Post 213484)
If you are interested in getting high level ukemi skills, just practice rolling and falling a lot. All you really have to do is take about six years off from trying to learn how to throw and spend it on learning to fall instead. This is of great benefit to the beginner because when you get back into trying to learn how to throw, you will then be able to attract the best people as training partners.

Benjamin,
I would agree with this and I would add:
This is of great benefit to anyone at any level of practice for the above said reasons. And if the 'best people' were also training this way imagine how many wonderful people the art we would be generating.Now that's evolution!
Best,
Jen

Mary Turner 08-12-2008 04:58 PM

Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi
 
This is always easier said than done, but.. relax.

Also, I got some good advice recently about concentrating on "core" muscles to help achieve the rounded shape for a roll and to keep legs and toes from smacking too hard in a breakfall.

bkedelen 08-12-2008 10:14 PM

Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi
 
Someone PM'd me and reminded me of the critical point that ukemi encompasses far more than rolling and falling. This is an elementary concept which I should have begun looking into long before now. Rolls and falls are important, fun, and pretty easy to nail down compared to the rest of Aikido skills. Nevertheless, rolling and falling does not even encompass half of the body of skills to which the word "ukemi" refers. People who are interested in digging deeper into ukemi are going to have to develop seriously good attacks and work on the concept of "receiving" nage's technique without sacrificing the honesty of the attack. This type of real, sensitive paired training is, I think, significantly more challenging than learning the fairly simple solo gymnastics movements of rolling and falling.

Daniel Blanco 08-13-2008 07:26 AM

Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi
 
my advice would be to purchase the DVD on Ukemi by Sensei Donavan Waite ( USAF) would be a good start and intro. Knowledge of ukemi comes from developing a relationship with the mat, this is what i tell new students " the closer you get to the mat,the closer/friendlier the mat will be to you" you must relax and trust your Nage. Hope this helps.

deathlinenetworks 08-13-2008 08:00 AM

Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi
 
thanks for the advices everyone. I have the same obsession with Daniel Rozenbaum. I'll roll and fall as much as I can and look into the DVD. If one day I'm able to find a way and do it as beautiful as Tissier's students, WOOTZ.....! I'll spread it to everyone.... The beauty of Aikido.

James Edwards 08-13-2008 09:05 AM

Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi
 
No offence but why is Tissier's students' ukemi so special? In my honest opinion they are often quite showy and sometimes impractical.

There is more to ukemi than just fancy flips and somersaults. It's not a show, it is a martial method that saves your body from damage.

Flintstone 08-13-2008 09:46 AM

Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi
 
Quote:

James Edwards wrote: (Post 213540)
There is more to ukemi than just fancy flips and somersaults. It's not a show, it is a martial method that saves your body from damage.

Just think about concrete or asphalt...!!

Mato-san 08-13-2008 11:15 AM

Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi
 
your ability to fall should precede your ability to throw.
Some of his students take great ukemi that looks good and does damage, but others take nice ukemi that looks nice and is long term forgiving...both are are tobi ukemi

jennifer paige smith 08-13-2008 11:17 AM

Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi
 
tobi or not tobi, that is the question.

NagaBaba 08-13-2008 12:29 PM

Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi
 
Quote:

James Edwards wrote: (Post 213540)
No offence but why is Tissier's students' ukemi so special? In my honest opinion they are often quite showy and sometimes impractical.

There is more to ukemi than just fancy flips and somersaults. It's not a show, it is a martial method that saves your body from damage.

I agree completely. What they do has nothing to do with aikido. It is a kind of healthy gymnastic - this guys and girls jump themselves without any reason. But what is worse, such artificial and exaggerated response to a technique has as result that nage learns false technique. When he goes to the other style dojo, where nobody jump for him like that he is completely lost.His techniques are not working even if his partners cooperate, but he has impression that they do full power resistance.And he takes it personaly and gets angry.....

In the other hand, uke is conditioned mentally, that it is safe way to receive a technique. But in reality, it is a true only in Ch.Tissier style. Many styles will not allow such liberty for uke - and for a right reason - from martial point of view such liberty WILL be used by uke against nage.
So such fancy flips become very dangerous for uke, he stops to listen and feel nage's body and can be badly hurt.Doing high flying flip uke can't adapt his position if nage decide to change a technique.

dalen7 08-13-2008 02:59 PM

Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi
 
My Ukemi - well...not that good for sure.
In fact I hate taking ukemi for something as simple as Ikkyo, etc.
(It bothers my knee - specifically one side, so now I have to use one side all the time to protect the other knee.)

Would like to know how to do better Ukemi as well - guess I will see what happens. ;)

Peace

dAlen

James Edwards 08-14-2008 05:53 AM

Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 213573)
In the other hand, uke is conditioned mentally, that it is safe way to receive a technique. But in reality, it is a true only in Ch.Tissier style. Many styles will not allow such liberty for uke - and for a right reason - from martial point of view such liberty WILL be used by uke against nage.
So such fancy flips become very dangerous for uke, he stops to listen and feel nage's body and can be badly hurt.Doing high flying flip uke can't adapt his position if nage decide to change a technique.

That has happened to me once. We don't usually do flips with anything and one of the few things we do it for is when someone does kotegaeshi to the side and much faster than usual. So one day I was experimenting a bit as my friend practiced kotegaeshi on me and I flipped to receive the technique. Instead of letting me land, my friend changed the technique mid-throw and pulled me in the other direction. I was lucky I still landed on my shoulders and back. Then I got a scoulding for doing that with normal kotegaishi..

mari 08-15-2008 09:05 AM

Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi
 
I cannot disagree more with most of the replies, saying that Christian Tissier's Aikido is healthy gymnastics and that uke's falls are artificial and exaggerated response. If done correctly, like everything in Aikido, that kind of kotegaeshi will produce that kind of ukemi. If done incorrectly and uke doesn't play along, it will result in uke just standing there with their arm slightly bent. And that is true for all Aikido. Shihan Tissier works with a fast moving uke, you can't do that type of Aikido static. You need to get uke moving, if they don't move, you need different approach to kotegaeshi, a more standard approach if you want to call it. And not just kote gaeshi, any technique. If you have ever been on the receiving end of that type of Aikdio, and nage was doing the right thing, there is no way you'd call Christian Tissier's Aikdio gymnastics.
But you can't have a standard kotegaeshi done to you and try to breakfall it. That doesn't make sense.

jennifer paige smith 08-15-2008 10:26 AM

Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 213573)
I agree completely. What they do has nothing to do with aikido. It is a kind of healthy gymnastic - this guys and girls jump themselves without any reason. But what is worse, such artificial and exaggerated response to a technique has as result that nage learns false technique. When he goes to the other style dojo, where nobody jump for him like that he is completely lost.His techniques are not working even if his partners cooperate, but he has impression that they do full power resistance.And he takes it personaly and gets angry.....

In the other hand, uke is conditioned mentally, that it is safe way to receive a technique. But in reality, it is a true only in Ch.Tissier style. Many styles will not allow such liberty for uke - and for a right reason - from martial point of view such liberty WILL be used by uke against nage.
So such fancy flips become very dangerous for uke, he stops to listen and feel nage's body and can be badly hurt.Doing high flying flip uke can't adapt his position if nage decide to change a technique.

Please clarify.
Is this general opinion, or have you trained with Tissier and are speaking from direct experience?
Thanks

NagaBaba 08-15-2008 02:05 PM

Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi
 
Quote:

Mariya Cacheva wrote: (Post 213676)
I cannot disagree more with most of the replies, saying that Christian Tissier's Aikido is healthy gymnastics and that uke's falls are artificial and exaggerated response.

You are reading too much in my post. I never said that 'Christian Tissier's Aikdio is gymnastics'. I said that ukemi of his uke is a healthy gymnastics.

Quote:

Mariya Cacheva wrote: (Post 213676)
If done correctly, like everything in Aikido, that kind of kotegaeshi will produce that kind of ukemi..

May be from your point of view ;)
But when you will get more ikkyo under your belt you will observe, that CT is using very wide circles. This kind of movement is not locking joints at all. Normally you can't lead anybody with such movement if he doesn't know what to do, if he doesn't have idea that he must follow nage.

For sure, you can't lift anybody on air with such movement.

So, the real connection nage-uke doesn’t exist and the successful throw is only possible when uke jumps by himself.
Speed of execution of technique has nothing to do with the necessity of flying in the air, attacker also can be very fast :D and match his movement with nage to redirect such large motion with no effort. That what we call 'harmony' ;)

So all these large-motion techniques can be safely received using normal rolls forward or backward.

NagaBaba 08-15-2008 02:07 PM

Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi
 
Quote:

Jennifer Smith wrote: (Post 213678)
Please clarify.
Is this general opinion, or have you trained with Tissier and are speaking from direct experience?
Thanks

Direct experience.

mari 08-15-2008 03:15 PM

Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 213688)
But when you will get more ikkyo under your belt you will observe, that CT is using very wide circles. This kind of movement is not locking joints at all. Normally you can't lead anybody with such movement if he doesn't know what to do, if he doesn't have idea that he must follow nage.

For sure, you can't lift anybody on air with such movement.

So, the real connection nage-uke doesn't exist and the successful throw is only possible when uke jumps by himself.
Speed of execution of technique has nothing to do with the necessity of flying in the air, attacker also can be very fast :D and match his movement with nage to redirect such large motion with no effort. That what we call 'harmony' ;)

So all these large-motion techniques can be safely received using normal rolls forward or backward.

I will pretend that I didn't see the experience comment :confused:

You are right that you can't lock joints at that speed but that doesn't mean you can't move your uke by working on their balance, while still have full control over where they fall and how they do it.

Can you receive some of these techniques with a forward or a backward roll? Maybe. Depends on how well the technique is done. I saw below that you said you had direct experience with Christian Tissier, I haven't had the pleasure of being on the receiving end of his technique but I have practiced with people who try to learn from him. And to me it is just a different way to execute a technique. Not better, not worse. It is just different. I have to say that I like it a lot :D
In a couple of weeks, I will be able to practice for a whole month with people who learn directly from Tissier Shihan, I will make sure to try to take every technique rolling forward or backward and will let you know of the result :uch:

Mato-san 08-16-2008 09:48 AM

Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi
 
CT has a yokomenuchi/yoko type angle to his kotegaishi and seems to break ukes balance well before sending them over with it into tobi ukemi....it is similar to that seen in aikijujutsu and heaps of styles of Aikido, he probably couldn`t execute it from a toe to toe no momentum situation, but I am sure he has a lot of other answers from there though (not my type of kotegaishi but looks nice and who am I to criticize CT`s technique) if he were to release earlier probably the showy flip would not be so necessary, some of his kaiten nage is light and I think doesn`t require big ukemi like that, but some of his soto kaiten would be down right painful if you did not tobi into it.
So yeah like Jennifer said "to tobi or not to tobi IS the question!"

I like his technique a whole bunch and would love to get on the receiving end of some of his tornado type waza.

jennifer paige smith 08-16-2008 10:59 AM

Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 213689)
Direct experience.

In that case, I would like it if you were to elaborate on your experience. For example, the length of your experience, or perhaps extent,would be a better word. Or the context. Was it a workshop, did you take Ukemi from Tissier , and what level of practice were you at when you had that experience?
Thanks. I'd appreciate it.


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