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Tony Nielsen 08-06-2008 11:55 PM

Hakama Question
 
I have a question about the wearing of a Hakama. We had a visitor attending our dojo this evening, and when we were in getting dressed prior to the class he wore a Hakama. After I introduced myself, welcomed him and as we started talking...he said he'd been studying the art for 2 years...(hmmm..2 yrs and already a black belt..I wondered to myself)

On to the class..the Sensei asked what rank he was and he said 3rd Kyu. (I realize literally anyone can buy a Hakama and put it on) but the only folks I've ever seen wear one at my dojo were all 1st Dan's..

I realize there are variations from dojo to dojo, and among styles.. but is this typical?

Shany 08-07-2008 12:08 AM

Re: Hakama Question
 
Usually a black belt is a 1 year of training (full time), if he practices full time, than there ya go.

some affiliates (Like min) can wear Hakama at 4th Kyu.

Dieter Haffner 08-07-2008 01:11 AM

Re: Hakama Question
 
Some federations start wearing them from 1st dan.
Others use them from 3th kuy.
Others have even no rank requirements.

So hakama =/= 1st dan.
Although it is always nice to ask the teacher if it is ok to wear your hakama if you are not familiar with the dojo etiquette.

dalen7 08-07-2008 02:35 AM

Re: Hakama Question
 
As other posters put it - it can vary.

Our dojo starts Hakama at 3rd kyu if you want - but at that point your pretty good already.

Even though its not that easy to spot initially, a black belt still has his black belt on with a Hakama, and a kyu rank wears a white belt typically. (See on the sides of the hakama.)

Probably, when in Rome, he should do as the Romans.
i.e. - wouldnt have been that difficult for him to see your dojo standards and just leave his hakama in his sport bag. :)

Peace

dAlen

bkedelen 08-07-2008 10:17 AM

Re: Hakama Question
 
The ASU handbook states that ASU students are not only able, but in fact expected to wear a hakama after attaining the rank of 6th kyu. This constitutes permission and instruction directly from Saotome sensei. Obviously this only pertains to ASU members, but if an ASU member visits your dojo, do not be surprised when they wear a hakama, since the mandate is so clear and comes from the top.

Trish Greene 08-07-2008 10:57 AM

Re: Hakama Question
 
Hello all

At our dojo the males can wear a hakama at 3rd kyu. The females can wear hakama after their first rank testing.

If I travel to a different dojo, I would probably ask first what the etiquette is so that I don't end up inadvertently offending someone.

dalen7 08-07-2008 11:30 AM

Re: Hakama Question
 
Quote:

Benjamin Edelen wrote: (Post 213124)
...but if an ASU member visits your dojo, do not be surprised when they wear a hakama, since the mandate is so clear and comes from the top.

"Coming from the top" and "mandate" is a matter of perspective in the situation that you describe above.

It could be conceived as arrogant for someone to hop across organizations, enter a dojo, and take the stance the way it was detailed as above.

Again, Im sure you did not mean it to come across that way. :D

The point, to clarify, would be that if a person is under so much conviction of a given 'mandate' within an organization, then it sounds unlikely they would just wonder into a dojo they are unfamiliar with...as well as not affiliated with. (Emphasis is on the person with that level of 'zeal' as you seemed to described.)

"To Hakama, or not to Hakama...this is the question, etc." ;)
Im sure once I get my green belt (3rd kyu) I will pick me up a hakama and adopt wearing the white belt underneath. :)

Before visiting a dojo to practice with them, I would probably ask them (if they were hakama wearing, and I did not have one) if that would be fine with them. - I would not just want to be presumptuous and break the harmony of the dojo. :)
And if I were to keep training there, obviously I would be expected to adopt their ways.

So again, its all with the attitude and mindset when you go into the dojo.
Your the guest, are you there to participate or is it an ego game of sorts? (This is just a comment in general, not pointing at anyone in particular.)

Peace

dAlen

bkedelen 08-07-2008 01:50 PM

Re: Hakama Question
 
If you see it as arrogant, you will have to take it up with Saotome sensei. In my experience serious Aikido people are too dignified to chastise visitors, even less for their choice of pants.

yojimbo 08-07-2008 02:08 PM

Re: Hakama Question
 
in our organisation,hakama is awarded at shodan but permission can be given to wear it at 2nd kyu if student is diligent and is sincere and shows a fair technical ability.however if somebody turned up,did not check out with sensei that it was ok to wear hakama at a fairly low grade and was mistaken for a senior student and then got damaged because they could not take ukemi.well lets say that it is arrogant to assume that just because you are entitled to wear it in your organisation it means that you have reached the technical and maturity level to wear it in another who have different opinions re hakama.
scott www.thistleaikikai.com

BWells 08-07-2008 02:46 PM

Re: Hakama Question
 
My dojo is a ASU dojo, so students are allowed (but not required) to wear a hakama after they pass their 6 kyu test. Most seem to buy them at 5th or 4th kyu. We tell our folks that if they travel to a non ASU dojo to call ahead ask the rules. Plus, to remember in many dojo's if you wear a hakama it is expected that you can take ukemi at the black belt level

Janet Rosen 08-07-2008 02:56 PM

Re: Hakama Question
 
Bruce, what a pleasure to see you here!

aikitraveller 08-07-2008 05:39 PM

Re: Hakama Question
 
Funny how a pair of baggy pants is such a huge issue at some dojo. As long as the guy's there to train, he can take ukemi, he's not being full of himself, he's doing what he was showed to do at that time and not doing it "his way" then I'd certainly welcome him back anytime regardless of what he wears, gi &hakama or spandex.

Keith Larman 08-07-2008 08:06 PM

Re: Hakama Question
 
Quote:

Tony Nielsen wrote: (Post 213074)
I have a question about the wearing of a Hakama. We had a visitor attending our dojo this evening, and when we were in getting dressed prior to the class he wore a Hakama. After I introduced myself, welcomed him and as we started talking...he said he'd been studying the art for 2 years...(hmmm..2 yrs and already a black belt..I wondered to myself)

On to the class..the Sensei asked what rank he was and he said 3rd Kyu. (I realize literally anyone can buy a Hakama and put it on) but the only folks I've ever seen wear one at my dojo were all 1st Dan's..

I realize there are variations from dojo to dojo, and among styles.. but is this typical?

Just fwiw within Seidokan hakama normally are indicative of nikyu or higher.

I think the more important point to be made isn't that there is a lot of variation in when hakama go on (styles do vary), but about how you present yourself at a dojo outside your system. Most consider the proper etiquette to be to present yourself, ask for permission to train, detail your experience, and then ask whether you should wear your belt showing rank from your own group or wear the white belt. Then whether you should wear your hakama. When I'm visiting someone else I'm there to learn from them. And if they want me without hakama with a white belt, fine. If they don't mind the black belt but no hakama, that's fine too. Whatever, I'm there to learn and whatever they'd like is fine with me. It is just a uniform. I'll suit up however *they* feel is appropriate for their dojo. I ain't there to teach -- I'm there as a student.

The bigger question is about proper manners before you ever step onto someone else's mat to train. And it helps the sensei in that they don't have to ask your rank during class. That should have been clarified before you ever stepped onto the mat. That is common courtesy in most dojo settings.

And fwiw you might also ask about protocol for lining up to open class. I *always* sit in the super newbie position if I'm visiting a dojo because I *am* the super newbie there. They may ask me to move according to my rank within my own style, but that's up to them to decide.

Will Prusner 08-07-2008 10:09 PM

Re: Hakama Question
 
I sure am glad there's not so much contention over the regular gi pants as there is over the fancy samurai pants. If I had to pass a test to wear regular gi pants, i'd still be practicing in my boxers. Fashion:disgust:

note: I know a guy who doesn't wear gi pants under his hakama, just colorful briefs...anyone have an opinon on that?

ramenboy 08-07-2008 10:39 PM

Re: Hakama Question
 
Quote:

Shany Golan wrote: (Post 213075)
Usually a black belt is a 1 year of training (full time)...

whoa... you can get shodan in 1 year? holy canoli...

will,
pretty much the only martial art that where's gi pants under the hakama is aikido. in iaido, our jackets are longer... hides our legs from the openning in the hakama. then again, we don't take breakfalls or any rolls in iaido, so there's no chance of showing that we're going 'full metal' under the hakama...

Will Prusner 08-07-2008 11:14 PM

Re: Hakama Question
 
Quote:

Jerome Cervantes wrote: (Post 213187)
will,
pretty much the only martial art that where's gi pants under the hakama is aikido. in iaido, our jackets are longer... hides our legs from the opening in the hakama. then again, we don't take breakfalls or any rolls in iaido, so there's no chance of showing that we're going 'full metal' under the hakama...

Personally, I think it's a great idea. Living in Miami, the more air flow (big pants) and the less layers (no gi pants underneath), the better (especially during the summer).

Thanks for the information regarding Iaido, I had no idea. Never even stopped to think about it. Just assumed that everybody had gi pants on under there. Interesting. Learned something new. Many thanks.

W.

Janet Rosen 08-07-2008 11:22 PM

Re: Hakama Question
 
I've known folks to wear bike shorts instead of gi pants under a hak. In cold weather I put on long undies.

Tinyboy344 08-07-2008 11:49 PM

Re: Hakama Question
 
Quote:

Tony Nielsen wrote: (Post 213074)
I have a question about the wearing of a Hakama. We had a visitor attending our dojo this evening, and when we were in getting dressed prior to the class he wore a Hakama. After I introduced myself, welcomed him and as we started talking...he said he'd been studying the art for 2 years...(hmmm..2 yrs and already a black belt..I wondered to myself)

On to the class..the Sensei asked what rank he was and he said 3rd Kyu. (I realize literally anyone can buy a Hakama and put it on) but the only folks I've ever seen wear one at my dojo were all 1st Dan's..

I realize there are variations from dojo to dojo, and among styles.. but is this typical?

Tony, it was an honor to train at your dojo. I did learn some really interesting stuff and senseis were very helpful to show me when I had difficulties. But please, feel free to toss me around all you can when we have another chance to train with each other. Thanks again for training with me last night. :)

dalen7 08-08-2008 02:46 AM

Re: Hakama Question
 
Quote:

Benjamin Edelen wrote: (Post 213153)
If you see it as arrogant, you will have to take it up with Saotome sensei. In my experience serious Aikido people are too dignified to chastise visitors, even less for their choice of pants.

See, I think we agree - for indeed, as you put it, who cares about the pants. ;)

Peace

dAlen

dalen7 08-08-2008 02:51 AM

Re: Hakama Question
 
Quote:

Keith Larman wrote: (Post 213183)

I think the more important point to be made isn't that there is a lot of variation in when hakama go on (styles do vary), but about how you present yourself at a dojo outside your system.

...I'll suit up however *they* feel is appropriate for their dojo. I ain't there to teach -- I'm there as a student.

The bigger question is about proper manners before you ever step onto someone else's mat to train.

...I *always* sit in the super newbie position if I'm visiting a dojo because I *am* the super newbie there. They may ask me to move according to my rank within my own style, but that's up to them to decide.

You eloquently stated what I tried to say. :D
Nice post.

Peace

dAlen

shadowedge 08-11-2008 04:08 AM

Re: Hakama Question
 
Took me 3 years to get to 1st dan. And our dojo`s policy is for yudansha olny to wear the hakama.

I moved around a lot after my training with my original sensei, and I`ve trained in several different dojo afterward. What I do is, I never take the Hakama with me and just put on a white belt. When people ask me about my skill or how long ive been an aikidoka, i tell them the truth, and it ends at that. And things always went well for me that way.

Truth is, i wasnt thinking about the color of the belt i was wearing, and I only wear my hakama and black belt whenever i would visit my original sensei.

The way I see it, you are a newbie when you step into a new dojo. New sensei, different rules mabye. I enjoy re-learning things from scratch. That`s all that matters to me.

deathlinenetworks 08-11-2008 10:14 AM

Re: Hakama Question
 
Is always good to ask first. It shows you are polite.

patf 08-11-2008 05:37 PM

Re: Hakama Question
 
Personally I don't see any issue with < shodan wearing hakama, though I prefer simple gi and white belt (too much hassle keeping the hakama clean and folded, and putting it on). However, I do believe that hakama-sabaki is something that should be taught pre-shodan. I studied iaido for a while and it was an important part of the training (nothing worse than tripping on your hakama with a live blade in hand!!). In iaido it is part of the uniform and not a symbol of rank and I doubt it was intended as a symbol of rank in Aikido either. I train in 2 different dojos, one which "awards" hakama after shodan and one which allows hakama after 4th or 5th kyu. I have no problem training in either scenario and it doesn't take long to figure out what level the other person is at.

One minor negative point towards wearing Hakama too early is that it may obstruct the instructors view of students feet, possibly preventing the instructor from correcting a students improper footwork.

I'd be curious to know though if dojos which allow Hakamas pre-shodan, require the student to wear or remove hakama for shodan test.

Charles Hill 08-11-2008 08:37 PM

Re: Hakama Question
 
Quote:

Jerome Cervantes wrote: (Post 213187)
whoa... you can get shodan in 1 year? holy canoli..

Kazuo Chiba got shodan in 11 months and that included an unspecified period where he was not allowed to train, only clean.

Charles

ramenboy 08-11-2008 09:14 PM

Re: Hakama Question
 
Quote:

Charles Hill wrote: (Post 213429)
Kazuo Chiba got shodan in 11 months and that included an unspecified period where he was not allowed to train, only clean.

Charles

hey charles

ohisashiburi desu ne! when are you heading back to the midwest for a visit? life a geac isn' the same :P

i think that's apples and oranges... kazuo chiba being compared to ...


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