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-   -   Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14867)

salim 07-29-2008 01:49 PM

Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period
 
Osensi prewar Aikido is missing from the vast majority of the dojos around the country. It's well documented that Osensi studied Jujutsu, Judo and others. Most dojos concentrate on wrist locks, elbow locks and shoulder locks. The pre war Aikdio incorporated Judo techniques, major body throws, sutemi waza, sacrafice throws and leg take downs, basic newaza. Pre war Aikido used atemi to cause harm when necessary. One of the greatest practitioners of Aikdio, sensei Hiroshi Isoyama would often, during his earlier years, receive challenges from boxers and wrestlers. He would often use head butts (atemi) or sacrafice throws (sutemi waza), to help subdue his opponent. His Aikdio was pre war Aikido. Stanley Pranin wrote a very interesting article, Is O-Sensei Really the Father of Modern Aikido.” Perhaps the article will shade some light on some of the misconceptions.

http://www.aikido-iwama.ru/text1_en.html

One has to ask why is this seemingly hidden? Why is it often not talked about or frowned upon. Why is the only acceptable Aikdio, peace and harmony. Is there a bit of mis education of Aikdio as a whole. There is so much evidence to support that Aikido is aggressive when necessary. There seems to be a steadily growing following of those who are interested in Aikido as much more than unbalancing your opponent and redirect his/her own inertia. We have to being talking about this more openly, but respectfully.

Hiroshi Isoyama in action.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qfJXNuT02h0&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bAhBPa6-CJ4&feature=related

Alfonso 07-29-2008 02:03 PM

Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period
 
I don't know.. in the official demonstration of aikido captured in the film Budo, O-Sensei shows none of these techniques. (head butt, newaza, kimewaza)

why would that be?

Lyle Bogin 07-29-2008 02:14 PM

Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period
 
I am usually the first to cry that someone's technique is too brutal, but really this amazing demonstration is not so. He leaves plenty of room for his uke's to escape, and releases his joint locks so uke can survive them. Fantastic!

The more aggressive tactics of the martial arts are and should be part of aikido training, but aikido give us some room to not always be that way. Iwama aikido is the style I respect them most, following Imaizumi's style which he describes as "90% like Tohei's style when he was with the aikikai".

Demetrio Cereijo 07-29-2008 02:26 PM

Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period
 
Isoyama started training after WWII.

If you want pre-war aikido (considering the name was adopted in 1942), you should look at Budo Renshu and Budo complemented with the mid 50's Mochizuki Minoru and Abe Tadashi manuals.

MM 07-29-2008 03:02 PM

Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period
 
Quote:

Salim Shaw wrote: (Post 212422)
Osensi prewar Aikido is missing from the vast majority of the dojos around the country.

Really? Wow, you'd better not tell all the dojos affiliated with Shioda or Tomiki that. :D The two biggest schools to come from pre-war students of Ueshiba. That's not to mention Mochizuki, either. I'm not sure how large Yoseikan is -- maybe they have more members in Europe, but I don't know.

Quote:

Salim Shaw wrote: (Post 212422)
It's well documented that Osensi studied Jujutsu, Judo and others.

Unfortunately, you're wrong again. It is well documented (thanks to Stan Pranin) that Ueshiba Morihei's main and central martial art was Daito ryu. Period. What made Ueshiba great? Daito ryu. What made Ueshiba powerful? Daito ryu. What did Ueshiba teach pre-war? Daito ryu. What kind of rank did Ueshiba award to pre-war students? Daito ryu. Thank you Stan for your laborious research.

It's like saying that it is well documented that Chuck Norris studied Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Well, sure, he worked out with BJJ some. Wasn't what made him great or famous, though.

Quote:

Salim Shaw wrote: (Post 212422)
Most dojos concentrate on wrist locks, elbow locks and shoulder locks. The pre war Aikdio incorporated Judo techniques, major body throws, sutemi waza, sacrafice throws and leg take downs, basic newaza. Pre war Aikido used atemi to cause harm when necessary.

If you're really interested in this stuff, study Daito ryu. :) And if you want someone capable, great teacher, fun, and worthwhile, look up Howard Popkin.

Quote:

Salim Shaw wrote: (Post 212422)
One of the greatest practitioners of Aikdio, sensei Hiroshi Isoyama would often, during his earlier years, receive challenges from boxers and wrestlers. He would often use head butts (atemi) or sacrafice throws (sutemi waza), to help subdue his opponent. His Aikdio was pre war Aikido.

As someone else noted, Hiroshi Isoyama came from post war and started studying Aikido in 1949.

Janet Rosen 07-29-2008 06:50 PM

Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period
 
I don't know; it seems to me that a case could be made that if there is someone I consider a really worthwhile instructor, what I'm interested in is what he was teaching later on in his development, not what he was doing earlier and then discarded...this is NOT meant as a backhanded jab at those who split off from OSensei earlier to pursue the paths that interested or inspired them, just a reflection of my thoughts decades later on.

Chris Li 07-29-2008 08:33 PM

Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 212433)
Really? Wow, you'd better not tell all the dojos affiliated with Shioda or Tomiki that. :D The two biggest schools to come from pre-war students of Ueshiba. That's not to mention Mochizuki, either. I'm not sure how large Yoseikan is -- maybe they have more members in Europe, but I don't know.

When you get right down to it - Shioda, Mochizuki, Tomiki, and Kisshomaru Ueshiba all studied with Morihei Ueshiba primarily before the war and established their teaching styles after the war (Iwama "style" being one form that was clearly established post-war with post-war students).

So you could say that all of the major styles above (including the Aikikai under Kisshomaru Ueshiba - he took over from his father in 1942) are "pre-war" styles or that they are all "post-war" styles, or that the division itself is really somewhat artificial.

Best,

Chris

David Orange 07-29-2008 09:20 PM

Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period
 
Quote:

Salim Shaw wrote: (Post 212422)
The pre war Aikdio incorporated Judo techniques, major body throws, sutemi waza, sacrafice throws and leg take downs, basic newaza.

I don't know where you got the idea that pre-war aikido incorporated sutemi-waza. The only major instructor I know of that even taught sutemi-waza as aikido was Minoru Mochizuki and he created pretty much all his sutemi-waza based on principles of a jujutsu system he had learned. About the only thing in Ueshiba's aikido that could be considered sutemi-waza was the "aiki drop" where he would bow on the floor as uke attacked, causing uke to fly over him. Also, techniques where he dropped to one knee to throw. But the aiki-drop is still found in modern aikido, as, I think are the "half-sutemi" techniques involving dropping to one knee. I don't know of anyone who really taught full-on full-body sutemi-waza like Mochizuki Sensei, even among the most outstanding pre-war students.

And if you want to quote Stan Pranin, remember how surprised he was to find the "Budo" book from the 1930s with pretty much identical techniques to what Saito Sensei was teaching him in the 1970s.

As for the demo by Isoyama Sensei, it looked pretty much like standard aikido to me--what you'll find in pretty much any aikido dojo you visit, if maybe a little more forceful. But that's not the element that makes Isoyama great. So I don't really see what you're getting at.

You can see better in clips of Gozo Shioda. And maybe you should take one of the suggestions above and see Howard Popkin to get another view of Daito Ryu.

Best to you.

David

Ellis Amdur 07-29-2008 11:23 PM

Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period
 
Problem is, what H. Popkin is doing is not prewar Ueshiba aikido. Roppokai is an off-shoot of Kodokai and the Kodokai people are pretty adamant that what they do is quite different from what Ueshiba did.
And as for Kisshomaru, Tomiki and Shioda, all of them put their own stamp on what they learned prewar. Otherwise, they'd look pretty much the same and they don't.
Actually, it's pretty simply. Prewar "aikido" is almost surely most accurately preserved in the Takumakai. The vast bulk of their material is preserved religiously from Ueshiba, with appr. 30%, as I recall, from Takeda Sokaku. And I also recall Hisa grumbling that after awhile, Takeda was repeating himself.
Now, what I'm writing here has nothing, in my mind, at least, with "the real aiki" (TM) wars, or which Daito-ryu faction is better - yawn.

Simply, what organization learned from Osensei prewar - is in the ONLY film of Osensei prewar, and has made a point of trying, through the Soden (everything photographed) to retain things as completely as possible? Takumakai
Best

MM 07-30-2008 06:33 AM

Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period
 
Quote:

Ellis Amdur wrote: (Post 212458)
Problem is, what H. Popkin is doing is not prewar Ueshiba aikido. Roppokai is an off-shoot of Kodokai and the Kodokai people are pretty adamant that what they do is quite different from what Ueshiba did.

Hmmm ... should have detailed the logic train a bit better, I guess. Pre-war "aikido" is really Daito ryu. Every pre-war student's art looks different. I'm told every Daito ryu school has a different look. Hence, if you're interested in pre-war "aikido", then really, try Daito ryu. And if every person's take on that training is different, does it matter which one? Yes and no. So, for my view, I've been to one seminar of Howard Popkin. I'd recommend him and I did. :)

Now, if you want to train in something that has the look of what Ueshiba was doing pre-war, okay, I wouldn't know. I'd still probably say try Daito ryu. And if you suggest the Takumakai, I guess the problem would be finding a local branch or dojo.

Course, if you want something with an "aikido" brand on it, then that'd probably be something from Tomiki, Shioda, or Mochizuki.

Thanks,
Mark

Peter Goldsbury 07-30-2008 07:15 AM

Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 212465)
Hmmm ... should have detailed the logic train a bit better, I guess. Pre-war "aikido" is really Daito ryu. Every pre-war student's art looks different. I'm told every Daito ryu school has a different look. Hence, if you're interested in pre-war "aikido", then really, try Daito ryu. And if every person's take on that training is different, does it matter which one? Yes and no. So, for my view, I've been to one seminar of Howard Popkin. I'd recommend him and I did. :)

Now, if you want to train in something that has the look of what Ueshiba was doing pre-war, okay, I wouldn't know. I'd still probably say try Daito ryu. And if you suggest the Takumakai, I guess the problem would be finding a local branch or dojo.

Course, if you want something with an "aikido" brand on it, then that'd probably be something from Tomiki, Shioda, or Mochizuki.

Thanks,
Mark

Hello Mark,

I think this is partly a matter concerning the fluidity of definition. A more precise question would be: which postwar manifestation of Daito-ryu is closest to what Morihei Ueshiba was actually doing during the years he spent in Ayabe from 1920 onwards? (Remember that there are also Admiral Takeshita's notes, which I think begin from around this this period.) Then, there was the move to Tokyo in 1927 and the beginning of another period, between 1927 and 1942, which would involve Hisa Takuma more directly.

Best wishes,

PAG

MM 07-30-2008 07:31 AM

Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period
 
Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: (Post 212468)
Hello Mark,

I think this is partly a matter concerning the fluidity of definition. A more precise question would be: which postwar manifestation of Daito-ryu is closest to what Morihei Ueshiba was actually doing during the years he spent in Ayabe from 1920 onwards? (Remember that there are also Admiral Takeshita's notes, which I think begin from around this this period.) Then, there was the move to Tokyo in 1927 and the beginning of another period, between 1927 and 1942, which would involve Hisa Takuma more directly.

Best wishes,

PAG

Hmmm ... well, would Iwama style be just as much in line as the Takumakai? I don't know much about Saito or what he learned, but there's the often cited passage about Saito and the Budo manual. How close are Iwama style aikido and the Takumakai syllabus?

Thanks,
Mark

Timothy WK 07-30-2008 07:49 AM

Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period
 
Quote:

Ellis Amdur wrote: (Post 212458)
Prewar "aikido" is almost surely most accurately preserved in the Takumakai. The vast bulk of their material is preserved religiously from Ueshiba, with appr. 30%, as I recall, from Takeda Sokaku.

Ellis,

Not to divert the discussion, but how familiar with the Takumakai are you? Is the above statement still true in light of Okabayashi Shogen's influence?

Though Okabayashi has since broken off on his own (forming Hakuho-ryu, the style I study), while he was still affiliated with the Takumakai he was considered one of their more prominent instructors. After training with Takeda Tokimune, he was part of an effort to add the Hiden Mokuroku (and possibly other elements) from the mainline to the Takumakai curriculum. (I'm not sure about the politics behind that change, though I know Tokimune wanted to consolidate Daito-ryu before he died.)

Okabayashi's personal style certainly changed as a result of his time with Tokimune, but I'm curious about the extent and endurance of Okabayashi's influence on the Takumakai. Did the Takamukai become a bit more "mainline-ized" in their actual movements, or did they just re-structure their syllabus? I know that there was a backlash against the syllabus changes, but I don't know if that included removing the Hiden Mokuroku (and whatever other elements) after Okabayashi broke away.

Peter Goldsbury 07-30-2008 08:14 AM

Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 212469)
Hmmm ... well, would Iwama style be just as much in line as the Takumakai? I don't know much about Saito or what he learned, but there's the often cited passage about Saito and the Budo manual. How close are Iwama style aikido and the Takumakai syllabus?

Thanks,
Mark

Mark, Wait a minute. You seem to be jumping right to 1942.

There is a context here. When Saito Sensei saw the 1938 Budo manual, he recorded his conviction to Stan Pranin that this was what O Sensei was doing when he trained with him. However, the Budo manual is quite different from Budo Renshu, written in 1933. Any serious comparison with the Takumakai should be based on the Budo Renshu manual, not on Budo, which was a manual written for a specific purpose. The same purpose is not so evident in Budo Renshu.

Best wishes,

PAG

MM 07-30-2008 08:24 AM

Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period
 
Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: (Post 212474)
Mark, Wait a minute. You seem to be jumping right to 1942.

There is a context here. When Saito Sensei saw the 1938 Budo manual, he recorded his conviction to Stan Pranin that this was what O Sensei was doing when he trained with him. However, the Budo manual is quite different from Budo Renshu, written in 1933. Any serious comparison with the Takumakai should be based on the Budo Renshu manual, not on Budo, which was a manual written for a specific purpose. The same purpose is not so evident in Budo Renshu.

Best wishes,

PAG

Ah, I see. I was confused. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Mark

Ellis Amdur 07-30-2008 09:15 AM

Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period
 
Timothy - I've seen Okabayashi, and it "looks" different from the Takumakai I've seen. I'm not qualified by experience to say what changes he made, or how qualitatively different they are.
Mark - any fluid we drink is water. Mostly. But Coca-cola tastes different from lemonade. It becomes kind of uninteresting to discuss things on cooking when everytime someone brings up a favorite beverage, the reply is that "hey, that's basically water too."
Best

Fred Little 07-30-2008 09:23 AM

Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period
 
Quote:

Ellis Amdur wrote: (Post 212483)
It becomes kind of uninteresting to discuss things on cooking when everytime someone brings up a favorite beverage, the reply is that "hey, that's basically water too."
Best

Ellis:

If you make that mojito with Wray & Nephew Overproof White Rum, no one will mistake it for "basically water." But then no one will ask for a second mojito, either.

Best,

Fred

TomW 07-30-2008 09:45 AM

Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period
 
May be you should look in Yamagata, I hear some of the students of Shirata S. still practice the pre-war aiki-budo.

Allen Beebe 07-30-2008 10:06 AM

Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period
 
Pre war there was*:

▪ Zenzaburo Akazawa (born 1920) since 1933
▪ Masahiro Hashimoto (born 1910) since 1931
▪ Takuma Hisa (1895--1980) since 1934
▪ Noriaki Inoue (1902--1994) since c.1921, nephew of Morihei Ueshiba
▪ Ikkusai Iwata (born 1909) since 1930, 9th dan Aikikai
▪ Hisao Kamada (1911--1986) since 1929
▪ Minoru Mochizuki (1907--2003) since 1930, 10th dan (received from the International Martial Arts Federation)
▪ Aritoshi Murashige (1895--1964) since 1931
▪ Gozo Shioda (1915--1994) since 1932, founder of the Yoshinkan Aikido
▪ Rinjiro Shirata (1912--1993) since 1933, 9th dan
▪ Isamu Takeshita (1869--1949) since c.1925
▪ Kenji Tomiki (1900--1979) since 1926, was the first 8th dan awarded in aikido in 1942.
▪ Shigemi Yonekawa (1910--2005) since 1933
▪ Tsutomu Yukawa (1911--1942) since 1931

Ellis mentioned Takuma Hisa, Chris Moses likes to mention Noriaki Inoue, nobody has mentioned Ikkusai Iwata (We don't seem to hear much about him even though he was active in the Aikikai up until a ripe old age . . . any body know why? Peter, thoughts?), Minoru Michizuki has been mentioned as has Gozo Shioda, Rinjiro Shirata hasn't been talked about, Kenji Tomiki has been listed, I didn't list the others because I don't think they were significantly active after the war. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

All of these individuals were students of O-sensei prior to, or at, the time that Budo Renshu recorded a sampling of techniques being studied and I would be very surprised if all of the students listed above weren't familiar with its contents (It was a broad sampling but by no means comprehensive), I know one did.

Another very valuable historical and marker for O-sensei's pre-war waza are the Noma dojo pictures. This is, reportedly, a huge collection of photographs many of which haven't been published. This collection poses several problems however. 1. There is limited access. (I only know of one individual, outside the Ueshiba family, that has access to them all. But things can change, and, I could be wrong here.) 2. The photos are in disorganized jumble. 3. It will take a a person with knowledge of (that period's) Daito Ryu, and (that period's) Ueshiba's practice to best be able to "connect the dots." (Given the present topic of conversation, I think we can see the problem finding living individuals that satisfy those criteria.) 4. Given all of the above, it will still take a significant amount of time to accomplish the task.

*According to a list found on this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morihei_Ueshiba Yeah, I'm lazy!

Allen Beebe 07-30-2008 10:18 AM

Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period
 
Quote:

Ellis Amdur wrote: (Post 212483)
Mark - any fluid we drink is water. Mostly. But Coca-cola tastes different from lemonade. It becomes kind of uninteresting to discuss things on cooking when everytime someone brings up a favorite beverage, the reply is that "hey, that's basically water too."
Best

In addition, how about:

There will be no further discussion once one drinks the "cool-aid." (Of any particular teacher, school, organization, or dogma.)

:sorry: :drool: :yuck: :crazy: :dead: :hypno:

Sure have enjoyed the latest exchanges between informed individuals and inquisitive, thoughtful minds. :)

Ellis are you still on track with the books?
Peter do you have a date in mind for your next column?

salim 07-30-2008 10:43 AM

Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 212433)
Really? Wow, you'd better not tell all the dojos affiliated with Shioda or Tomiki that. :D The two biggest schools to come from pre-war students of Ueshiba. That's not to mention Mochizuki, either. I'm not sure how large Yoseikan is -- maybe they have more members in Europe, but I don't know.

Unfortunately, you're wrong again. It is well documented (thanks to Stan Pranin) that Ueshiba Morihei's main and central martial art was Daito ryu. Period. What made Ueshiba great? Daito ryu. What made Ueshiba powerful? Daito ryu. What did Ueshiba teach pre-war? Daito ryu. What kind of rank did Ueshiba award to pre-war students? Daito ryu. Thank you Stan for your laborious research.

It's like saying that it is well documented that Chuck Norris studied Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Well, sure, he worked out with BJJ some. Wasn't what made him great or famous, though.

If you're really interested in this stuff, study Daito ryu. :) And if you want someone capable, great teacher, fun, and worthwhile, look up Howard Popkin.

As someone else noted, Hiroshi Isoyama came from post war and started studying Aikido in 1949.

Here is a picture of O'sensei doing newaza. Perhaps pre WWII Aikido? Perhaps from his Judo background that he gained?

salim 07-30-2008 10:47 AM

Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 212433)
Really? Wow, you'd better not tell all the dojos affiliated with Shioda or Tomiki that. :D The two biggest schools to come from pre-war students of Ueshiba. That's not to mention Mochizuki, either. I'm not sure how large Yoseikan is -- maybe they have more members in Europe, but I don't know.

Unfortunately, you're wrong again. It is well documented (thanks to Stan Pranin) that Ueshiba Morihei's main and central martial art was Daito ryu. Period. What made Ueshiba great? Daito ryu. What made Ueshiba powerful? Daito ryu. What did Ueshiba teach pre-war? Daito ryu. What kind of rank did Ueshiba award to pre-war students? Daito ryu. Thank you Stan for your laborious research.

It's like saying that it is well documented that Chuck Norris studied Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Well, sure, he worked out with BJJ some. Wasn't what made him great or famous, though.

If you're really interested in this stuff, study Daito ryu. :) And if you want someone capable, great teacher, fun, and worthwhile, look up Howard Popkin.

As someone else noted, Hiroshi Isoyama came from post war and started studying Aikido in 1949.

Here is a picture of O'sensei doing newaza. Perhaps pre WWII Aikido? Perhaps from his Judo background that he gained?

Jujutsu is the father of all jujutsu, Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu, BJJ, Judo etc.

Ron Tisdale 07-30-2008 11:43 AM

Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period
 
Salim, let's be clear. That is a picture of Ueshiba doing a reclining pin. That in and of itself IS NOT indicative of a developed newaza curriculum, or anything like what you see in certain styles of judo, or BJJ where positional dominance and transition strategy come into play.

I'm not saying that those things absolutely didn't exist...I know some Yoshinkan instructors from the early days that demonstrate a variety of reclining pins, and there may have been more behind them...

But what you present does not make a very convincing case there.

Best,
Ron (one reclining pin in a picture does not newaza make)
PS I would have no problems if there WAS newaza, just trying to be logical.

Timothy WK 07-30-2008 11:50 AM

Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period
 
Quote:

Salim Shaw wrote: (Post 212496)
Here is a picture of O'sensei doing newaza.

No, I *think* you're wrong, Salim. I can't be sure by just that picture alone, but I think I recognize that as a Daito-ryu technique.

I can't remember if that starts from standing, kneeling/suwari, or both... probably kneeling... but anyway, you "tie" the guy up with your arms around him, then throw/unbalance him. You then him follow down and break his neck...

... if I'm remembering all that right... I definitely remember being held like that, but I don't remember the full setup... It's been awhile, and it was also one of techniques above my rank that sensei showed "for fun". ;)

salim 07-30-2008 12:22 PM

Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period
 
I don't know the full history of sensei Masatomi Ikeda, 7th dan. I do know that he studied Judo prior to Aikido. Interesting enough he teaches his students newaza. I wonder if he understood Aikido from a different perspective (pre war)? Clip below.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=85Jxmles0Hk

Another good sensei, Julio Toribio 5th dan, performing sacrifice throws. Maybe really, the pre war Aikido is more of a persons perspective. Clip below.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eOnSAiggMpE


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