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-   -   Irimi Nage as Kokyu nage? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14789)

Bryan Sproles 07-12-2008 02:10 AM

Irimi Nage as Kokyu nage?
 
Hey all, I was re-reading one of my favorite Aikido books tonight, Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere (which I'm sure must be in a lot of Aikidoka libraries), and noticed something strange.

On page 226, they show what they are calling "Kokyu nage", but from the lessons I've taken, and all the video I've seen of this technique (example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE4jk...eature=related ), it looks like pure irimi-nage to me.

Is Irimi-nage a *type* of kokyu nage?

Any comments are appreciated :)

-Bryan

dalen7 07-12-2008 10:46 AM

Re: Irimi Nage as Kokyu nage?
 
Nothing like that...at least not where I practice.

The technique appears useless until you realize that perhaps it would be useful if you were holding a sword. (Point is for kokyu nage to work, you need them to want to grab onto you...and a sword in nages hand is a pretty good reason to not want to let go.)

Imagine they grab your right arm with their left.
You then swing your arm in front of you and up like a sword and then 'cut' down, to which they will then 'roll' or take ukemi.

So no its nothing like the vid you showed. But names can change for sure...Im realizing that with the naming conventions we use for our footwork vs. what I see on the net. (Take Tai Sabaki for example...its one of our foot work techniques.)

Again, kokyu nage is interesting -

Peace

dAlen

Pauliina Lievonen 07-12-2008 11:17 AM

Re: Irimi Nage as Kokyu nage?
 
The same techniques in different branches of aikido have different names, the iriminage - kokyunage one is one example.

kvaak
Pauliina

dalen7 07-12-2008 04:06 PM

Re: Irimi Nage as Kokyu nage?
 
Quote:

Pauliina Lievonen wrote: (Post 210968)
The same techniques in different branches of aikido have different names, the iriminage - kokyunage one is one example.

kvaak
Pauliina

Understood, but this is where our japanese linguist experts (also Aikido experts) may want to pop in.

The two techniques are implemented quite differently - so its kind of hard to see how the names can get swapped with these two techniques in particular.

Not that it matters in the end, but it is interesting to say the least.

I guess I can kind of see how they could call kokyunage something like iriminage instead.
The head goes back and uke falls.

Anyway

Peace

dAlen

p.s. - for one I think its time to unite Aikido in terms and schedule.
There is room for individuality, but I am amazed at how different things can be taught within this art...its as if there is the name Aikido, but after that there is no real unifying factor. ;)
(Said loosely, above, as I know there are plenty of common denominators, but Im sure the point is understood with what Im trying to say.) ;)

gdandscompserv 07-12-2008 05:54 PM

Re: Irimi Nage as Kokyu nage?
 
That is Shomen Uchi Irimi Nage as I learned it.

rob_liberti 07-12-2008 07:54 PM

Re: Irimi Nage as Kokyu nage?
 
Every technique is kokyu nage and every technique is ikkyo.

Bryan Sproles 07-12-2008 09:46 PM

Re: Irimi Nage as Kokyu nage?
 
Quote:

Rob Liberti wrote: (Post 210985)
Every technique is kokyu nage and every technique is ikkyo.

Rob: I have noticed that from many techniques, it actually *is* ikkyo that actually takes uke to the ground. We typically did combinations like nikyo -> ikkyo, or sankyo -> ikkyo to bring uke to the mat.

One of my favorite techniques is shiho-nage - in the same Aikido book, they call it a "controlling" technique (in the same section with ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, etc), but I've always considered it to be more of a projection or throw, even though in many cases, tori goes to one knee to finish the "throw".

-Bryan

eyrie 07-12-2008 10:08 PM

Re: Irimi Nage as Kokyu nage?
 
Quote:

Bryan Sproles wrote: (Post 210987)
Rob: I have noticed that from many techniques, it actually *is* ikkyo that actually takes uke to the ground. We typically did combinations like nikyo -> ikkyo, or sankyo -> ikkyo to bring uke to the mat.

I don't think that's what Rob meant... I think he meant ALL techniques contain the principle of ikkyo... just as they all are based on kokyu (nage)....

Quote:

One of my favorite techniques is shiho-nage - in the same Aikido book, they call it a "controlling" technique (in the same section with ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, etc), but I've always considered it to be more of a projection or throw, even though in many cases, tori goes to one knee to finish the "throw".
Funny... I thought shiho nage are shoulder dislocations... :p

Mark Gibbons 07-12-2008 10:17 PM

Re: Irimi Nage as Kokyu nage?
 
Try http://aikiweb.com/wiki/Techniqueschart for a list of technique names across styles.

Mark

Janet Rosen 07-13-2008 12:24 AM

Re: Irimi Nage as Kokyu nage?
 
Specifically the technique that in Aikikai is called iriminage is called kokyunage in Ki Society.

Dirk Hanss 07-13-2008 12:45 AM

Re: Irimi Nage as Kokyu nage?
 
Quote:

Dalen Johnson wrote: (Post 210977)
Understood, but this is where our japanese linguist experts (also Aikido experts) may want to pop in.

The two techniques are implemented quite differently - so its kind of hard to see how the names can get swapped with these two techniques in particular.

Not being a lunguistic expert, but I might give some explanations.
Irimi nage means 'through by entry'
Kokyu nage means 'throw by breath power'

An as both techniques have both principles, the names can be switched easily. The names do not give specific hints on how the technique should be executed.

And in some variations iriminage and koyunage (aka sokumen iriminage) are done the same way but executed with the opposite arm as major contact with uke.

More confusion appears as kokyunage is not only the name for a specific technique in the examination syllabus, but also a collection of all throwing techniques which show that kokyu power
i.e. where you do not use gears and locks but just lead uke (dynamically) to fall by himself. And in addition you find some techniques called "ikkyu kokyunage" or "kotegaeshi kokyunage", which means that you do not focus on the joints, but on the kokyu power or even just means that you do not finish them with a pin, but with a throw or leaving uke free to escape by rolling.

Kind regards

Dirk

rob_liberti 07-13-2008 06:23 AM

Re: Irimi Nage as Kokyu nage?
 
Several years back now, I remember just thinking of kokyu nage as a catchall phrase - mainly for when sensei didn't have a good name for a throw they liked, and that iriminage was just a specific version of kokyunage (being a super set). That kind of helped me organize things well enough in my mind at the time. It's not a terrible way to think about it today.

Here are some other odd things about iriminage:

Physically what I do for tenchi nage (ura version) is pretty much what I do for iriminage with the main difference being that uke is facing me for tenchi nage, and uke is not facing me for iriminage.

I can also do all 4 letters of the Y M C A song while doing iriminage if uke attacks with their right arm. (If they attack with their left, the C would be backwards).

Other wierd things are that my hips and arms are rarely moving the same direction at the same time - it's like a big moving rowing exercise done in 180 degree rotations.

Rob

SmilingNage 07-13-2008 06:44 AM

Re: Irimi Nage as Kokyu nage?
 
I noticed that when I first read that book. Here is the explanation I got. The names were changed when the 2nd Doshu was reorganizing O'sensei 's work. Something to the effect, that his father had all these techniques that he didnt bother to name and or used the same name for a group of techniques. The 2nd Doshu's work was really to organize the martial inheritance he was left with. This would explain why many of the non Aikikai lineages have different terminology depending on when the "broke" from the Aikikai

KamiKaze_Evolution 07-14-2008 04:23 AM

Re: Irimi Nage as Kokyu nage?
 
It is supposed to be sokumen irimi nage

Dazzler 07-14-2008 10:35 AM

Re: Irimi Nage as Kokyu nage?
 
Quote:

Rob Liberti wrote: (Post 211005)
I can also do all 4 letters of the Y M C A song while doing iriminage if uke attacks with their right arm. (If they attack with their left, the C would be backwards).

Suggest you start a poll - how many of us have tried to visualise this immediately. 99% ? and how many will think about it next time they try IN? :D

If I can't keep a straight face teaching this I'll be blaming you Rob!

rob_liberti 07-14-2008 01:32 PM

Re: Irimi Nage as Kokyu nage?
 
Quote:

Daren Sims wrote: (Post 211080)
Suggest you start a poll - how many of us have tried to visualise this immediately. 99% ? and how many will think about it next time they try IN? :D

If I can't keep a straight face teaching this I'll be blaming you Rob!

I knew a guy that was opening up a dojo in Ohio, and I tried really hard to get him to call his school "Ohio gozaimasu"! I think people take their art way too seriously. Work so hard that you can joke around and still no one can say you are not serious - that's my motto!

As far as Iriminage is concerned - can you retract your arms toward yourself without pulling uke? It's like extending/expanding your arms in ikkyo without pushing, or expanding your arms upward in shihonage without lifting. If you can't - eating more rice isn't going to help. Think about structure, and thrust and slice from inside your body.

Rob


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