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-   -   Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14772)

Jason Mayo 07-10-2008 10:05 AM

Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
 
I recently saw this video of Seiseki Abe,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf5tBAB3YRc

at one point we see him stick his hands out and his ukes send themselves flying over.

I understand that he is one of osensei's students and is highly respected, but this looks more than a little dodgy to me.

Any comments on this?

Thanks

FiuzA 07-10-2008 10:30 AM

Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
 
Similar to this one, huh? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rHuQiugSks

Aikibu 07-10-2008 10:52 AM

Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
 
Quote:

Jason Mayo wrote: (Post 210718)
I recently saw this video of Seiseki Abe,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf5tBAB3YRc

at one point we see him stick his hands out and his ukes send themselves flying over.

I understand that he is one of osensei's students and is highly respected, but this looks more than a little dodgy to me.

Any comments on this?

Thanks

Sure...Welcome to Aikiweb

First off in ther spirit of AikiWeb why don't you introduce yourself and gives us some background on you. Then if you wish you can explain specifically what is dodgy to you. Can you speak Japanese? Understanding what they discussing in the video would be helpful to those who don't know the language. :)

Again Welcome :)

William Hazen

Jason Mayo 07-10-2008 11:31 AM

Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
 
Quote:

André Fiúza wrote: (Post 210726)

I suppose, but again I dont really understand whats going on here either. Is there supposed to be some kind of sarchasam to both of these demonstrations, like a joke of some kind,or is it serious? In the video from your reply the crowd is laughing but the people who commented on the video seemed to take it seriously.

The Abe sensei video is similar in that the man interviewing him is in a cornball samurai outfit, but the Aikidoka in the video clip and everyone commenting seem to take it seriously, so i'm a little confused about whats going on...

Jason Mayo 07-10-2008 12:06 PM

Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
 
Quote:

William Hazen wrote: (Post 210735)
Sure...Welcome to Aikiweb

First off in ther spirit of AikiWeb why don't you introduce yourself and gives us some background on you. Then if you wish you can explain specifically what is dodgy to you. Can you speak Japanese? Understanding what they discussing in the video would be helpful to those who don't know the language. :)

Again Welcome :)

William Hazen

I'm assuming by the tone of your reply that your real question is "do you really have an interest in Aikido, or are you just starting another aiki bash session?" ;)

Yes I used to take Aikido but I dont any longer. And no, this isnt a bash session... I guess my real question, as I said in my other reply, would be is it serious or not? I was confused so I wanted some opinions (also, I dont speak japanese, so that would be helpful to me too).

As far as it looking "dodgy", like I said (in my other reply that hasnt posted yet, sorry!), if its a performance, thats one thing. But the others viewing the clip on youtube seem to take it seriously. As we all know, people in every dojo fall down because they think the are supposed to.Im just saying if it is supposed to be real, then were moving into dodgy territory for that reason.

Ive been thinking about this for a while, and this site seems to have a variety of opinions, so i asked the question here to try to see what others think.

Ron Tisdale 07-10-2008 12:29 PM

Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
 
If you do a search on Abe Sensei's name, you will find links to that video and similar ones, and comments as to the context. You will also find some of his current or former students who post here, and they may be able to lend some insight.

In general, I hear that the guy in the video is pretty much a goof ball, and I guess in the Japanese TV world what was done is pretty much what is expected.

But Abe Sensei is quite interesting to take ukemi from, and he is very generous with it. The one time I got to see and take a class from him, he walked up 5 flights of stairs, and threw everyone in the room, and no one took those kinds of falls, and he was over 90 at the time.

Not saying he is some kind of aiki hero...just giving a little perspective.

Best,
Ron (hope I can do that at 70, let alone 90...)

Aikibu 07-10-2008 12:58 PM

Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
 
Quote:

Jason Mayo wrote: (Post 210756)
I'm assuming by the tone of your reply that your real question is "do you really have an interest in Aikido, or are you just starting another aiki bash session?" ;)

Yes I used to take Aikido but I dont any longer. And no, this isnt a bash session... I guess my real question, as I said in my other reply, would be is it serious or not? I was confused so I wanted some opinions (also, I dont speak japanese, so that would be helpful to me too).

As far as it looking "dodgy", like I said (in my other reply that hasnt posted yet, sorry!), if its a performance, thats one thing. But the others viewing the clip on youtube seem to take it seriously. As we all know, people in every dojo fall down because they think the are supposed to.Im just saying if it is supposed to be real, then were moving into dodgy territory for that reason.

Ive been thinking about this for a while, and this site seems to have a variety of opinions, so i asked the question here to try to see what others think.

Sorry Jason but I am not assuming anything which is why I asked. :)

I watched the video and have seen the other and my opinion is to let other people have their opinion. :)

William Hazen

SmilingNage 07-10-2008 01:19 PM

Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
 
Those 2 videos are fluffier than my pillows, not exactly my cup of tea. I can see where they are going with their demos, but its not something that I subscribe to. I' ve never experienced either of those teachers, but from the video, things are very fluffy looking, with extra dose of flighty ukes.

This not exactly the kind of stuff I would should to perspective students, but to each his own.

B.J.M. 07-10-2008 01:38 PM

Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
 
They are just goofing in the video.

I trained at Abe sensei's dojo in Osaka a couple of times in 2001. He is extremely nice and generous.

He starts class by having all of his students grab him and he then throws them. He asked me to attack and grab him as hard as I could. I was a nikyu at the time and decided that I would "go for it". I grabbed and then found myself in the softest feeling front roll.

I still don't understand how he did it.

I'm not one for the "fluffy" Aikido either. My teacher is Donovan Waite sensei and there is no "fluff" with him.

Abe sensei is doing something on a different plain and closer to what O-Sensei was doing in his later years.

mathewjgano 07-10-2008 09:46 PM

Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
 
Quote:

Jason Mayo wrote: (Post 210718)

Any comments on this?

Thanks

My guess is that these are connectivity exercises.

Upyu 07-11-2008 05:43 AM

Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
 
Quote:

Matthew Gano wrote: (Post 210809)
My guess is that these are connectivity exercises.

Bingo :D

Actually, at one point he shows the comedian some movement and the guy says "oh ...so it travels from the other arm?" and Abe replies "Wow, you're really smart!" Exactly" or something to that effect.

Connection through the back for the arms... -_- Why they would be showing this stuff on tv beats me though.

As far as a lot of demos go, it's not bad. If you understand Japanese :D

shadowedge 07-11-2008 07:18 AM

Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
 
Quote:

Connection through the back for the arms... -_- Why they would be showing this stuff on tv beats me though.
From a broadcaster's perspective, I've noticed that the Japanese media is swamped with tons of shows like these. Sort of a hybrid live informative documentary with a savvy mix of humor. :)

As for the flying uke's part ~ I'll take Ron's and Brent's word for it. Deep down, I've always had doubts as to how far one can push your Ki skills. It's inspiring to see and hear about. But its something I believe we as akidoka can come to understand only with more experience.

~ either way --- I find it fascinating. I really love Aikido hehehe :D

Ron Tisdale 07-11-2008 07:44 AM

Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
 
Quote:

As for the flying uke's part ~ I'll take Ron's and Brent's word for it.
Nah, don't do that. If you get the opportunity take the ukemi for your self and see what you think. I just tried to supply some context.

Some times I enjoy (as uke) striving to give shite the best possible connection from my center to work with. Just to put things in the best possible way for shite to do the waza, and the best possible way for me to experience their power. I enjoy recieving it, especially from certain instructors and partners. It's a blast. These aren't "truly martial" interactions in a lot of cases...but they are aikido.

Other times I try to maintain my integrity, and let shite make all the connections on their own in terms of making the waza happen. It just depends on what seems called for, needed, desired, enjoyable etc at that moment. I can enjoy many different modes of keiko.

Doesn't mean you should take the pill... :D

Best,
Ron

dbotari 07-11-2008 07:48 AM

Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote: (Post 210838)
Doesn't mean you should take the pill... :D

Or drink the Kool Aid. ;)

Ron Tisdale 07-11-2008 08:57 AM

Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
 
Bingo!

I should probably add that when shite is 90 plus, I am not concerned about "resisting", or having him prove something...I am concerned about feeling what he is doing, how he is doing it, what effect it has, etc. If flowing with him allows me to experience that stuff, great! If I don't feel or experience anything remarkable, that's fine...I'll take the ukemi and be happy I trained with a 90+ guy who knew the founder and is still getting on the mat. Probably won't go around telling people "hey, I didn't feel him do anything". Probably won't take the next boat to China to train with that person, either...

Best,
Ron

Jason Mayo 07-11-2008 12:08 PM

Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
 
Quote:

Matthew Gano wrote: (Post 210809)
My guess is that these are connectivity exercises.

Thats fine if they are actually connected, but if you watch both videos, especially the one FiuzA replied with, theyre not connecting at all. Nage is waving his hands around and uke is just jumping.

So my question now is, whats the point of being involved in something theatrical or "fluffy"? Ive seen osenseis ukes do some things in demonstrations that i would call questionable, but this is a little rediculous....

Jason Mayo 07-11-2008 12:21 PM

Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote: (Post 210846)
Bingo!

I should probably add that when shite is 90 plus, I am not concerned about "resisting", or having him prove something...I am concerned about feeling what he is doing, how he is doing it, what effect it has, etc. If flowing with him allows me to experience that stuff, great! If I don't feel or experience anything remarkable, that's fine...I'll take the ukemi and be happy I trained with a 90+ guy who knew the founder and is still getting on the mat. Probably won't go around telling people "hey, I didn't feel him do anything". Probably won't take the next boat to China to train with that person, either...

Best,
Ron

This is another thing Im not getting. So just because your training partner is old, you should take it easy on them? And worse yet, just "take the ukemi"????

So just cause someones old, they dont need to sharpen their skills? I learned the hard way more than once how offended some more "seasoned" martial artists get when this sort of thing happens.

But maybe thats not what these individuals want anyways. Maybe they WANT to just wave their hands and have people pretend to fall down for them....

Misogi-no-Gyo 07-11-2008 12:22 PM

Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
 
...just goes to show you that what you don't know may ended up hurting you ...a lot.

.

Ron Tisdale 07-11-2008 02:38 PM

Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
 
Well, let's think about this a bit Jason. I don't know how old you are, but I'm 47. So, let's say an instructor is 90, and maybe has valuable things to teach.

Are you saying that a 47 year old 175 pound man should go hell bent for leather after a 90 year old say, 135 or less pound man? Who has unrealistic expectations of aikido here? What exactly do you want to learn? How to maximize whatever power your body can generate? How to beat up seniors? How do you approach taking that ukemi?

And are you telling me that you know of no other way of helping him sharpen his skills than beating up on him?

Personally, I was shocked at the relaxed power from a man over 90 that I should be able to push over with one finger. I learned a lot from that seminar (in Iowa, with Abe Sensei). I didn't go all that way from Phila. to beat up on a 90 year old. I went there to see if I could learn something.

If I want an MMA match, I know where I can get those in Philadelphia.

I think Abe Sensei wanted us to CONNECT...and then what happens happens. Again, hope I can do the same at 90.
Best,
Ron (the best course is something in the middle, as always...)

mathewjgano 07-11-2008 03:28 PM

Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
 
Quote:

Robert John wrote: (Post 210823)
Bingo :D

Actually, at one point he shows the comedian some movement and the guy says "oh ...so it travels from the other arm?" and Abe replies "Wow, you're really smart!" Exactly" or something to that effect.

Connection through the back for the arms... -_- Why they would be showing this stuff on tv beats me though.

As far as a lot of demos go, it's not bad. If you understand Japanese :D

Woohoo! I got one! :D
...now I wish I had something better than a pre-schooler's vocabulary in Japanese.
Does he explain the purpose of the no-touch stuff that went on? What is your take on them?

mathewjgano 07-11-2008 04:15 PM

Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
 
Quote:

Jason Mayo wrote: (Post 210871)
Thats fine if they are actually connected, but if you watch both videos, especially the one FiuzA replied with, theyre not connecting at all. Nage is waving his hands around and uke is just jumping.

So my question now is, whats the point of being involved in something theatrical or "fluffy"? Ive seen osenseis ukes do some things in demonstrations that i would call questionable, but this is a little rediculous....

Well they are connecting their movements even though they aren't connecting physically. If you picture nage as holding something like a jo, some of the movements seem more practical to me. Beyond that, my guess is that these are coordination and responsiveness exercises. I know in my own training, sparse though it's been, it's been stressed that I should have a sense of connection before during and after contact. Perhaps this is one way of building that mental connection. The mention of sympathetic movements in another thread comes to mind. Perhaps the goal is to develop that sympathetic connection of movements. I don't really know though.

Jason Mayo 07-13-2008 09:51 AM

Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote: (Post 210894)
And are you telling me that you know of no other way of helping him sharpen his skills than beating up on him?

Im not saying anyone should beat up on anyone, im just asking why anyone would just "take ukemi" if nothing happened?

Jason Mayo 07-13-2008 10:06 AM

Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
 
Quote:

Matthew Gano wrote: (Post 210912)
Well they are connecting their movements even though they aren't connecting physically. If you picture nage as holding something like a jo, some of the movements seem more practical to me. Beyond that, my guess is that these are coordination and responsiveness exercises. I know in my own training, sparse though it's been, it's been stressed that I should have a sense of connection before during and after contact. Perhaps this is one way of building that mental connection. The mention of sympathetic movements in another thread comes to mind. Perhaps the goal is to develop that sympathetic connection of movements. I don't really know though.

If they wanted to train coordination and responsiveness, why not just do it with real technique?

I cant count the number of times i heard a sensei tell a new student "now just take a roll". And ten times out of ten, that student stopped coming back, probably because they werent interested in something theatrical.

Why cant people accept that this is what is happening in these videos, only on a much greater level? I can see the purpose of such techniques as kaiten-nage or tenchi-nage, for example, that arent really effective in a martial sense but are more of a "forging technique".I dont like them, but i can see the point. But these demonstrations are taking that concept into a VERY theatrical area....

Aikibu 07-13-2008 11:54 AM

Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
 
Quote:

Jason Mayo wrote: (Post 211016)
If they wanted to train coordination and responsiveness, why not just do it with real technique?

I cant count the number of times i heard a sensei tell a new student "now just take a roll". And ten times out of ten, that student stopped coming back, probably because they werent interested in something theatrical.

Why cant people accept that this is what is happening in these videos, only on a much greater level? I can see the purpose of such techniques as kaiten-nage or tenchi-nage, for example, that arent really effective in a martial sense but are more of a "forging technique".I dont like them, but i can see the point. But these demonstrations are taking that concept into a VERY theatrical area....

Two things....

One.Read Shaun Raven's post again and ask yourself have I ever taken Ukemi from Abe Sensei (hint: he has)
Two: Besides not speaking or understanding Japanese and having never practiced personally with Abe's Sensei what qualifications do you have that allow me to put your observations in the proper context?

William Hazen

mathewjgano 07-13-2008 01:32 PM

Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?
 
Quote:

Jason Mayo wrote: (Post 211016)
If they wanted to train coordination and responsiveness, why not just do it with real technique?

Because it's easier to respond when you're physically connected? What I'm guessing could be done any number of ways...and I'm not even sure that's the purpose.

Quote:

I cant count the number of times i heard a sensei tell a new student "now just take a roll". And ten times out of ten, that student stopped coming back, probably because they werent interested in something theatrical.
100%? Sounds like theatrics isn't much of an issue then.

Quote:

Why cant people accept that this is what is happening in these videos, only on a much greater level? I can see the purpose of such techniques as kaiten-nage or tenchi-nage, for example, that arent really effective in a martial sense but are more of a "forging technique".I dont like them, but i can see the point. But these demonstrations are taking that concept into a VERY theatrical area.
For all I know you're right. However, considering what accounts I've been reading about Seiseki Abe, I'm assuming there's something more to it than mere theatrics.


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