AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   General (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=1)
-   -   defending against a boxer (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1452)

Bernie V 01-17-2002 09:04 PM

defending against a boxer
 
Hi,
This is my first post. I have been taking aikido for a year now. I love it but I am still a doubting Thomas on whether it works.
I also just started to do some boxing to get the feel of a real attack and also to get see how my Aikido could be used to defend . Right now, when I am boxing I just box, but in the back of my mind I am thinking on how to use irimi or tenkan and also what technique I could use to immobilize or throw. forgive
my naiveness but I am still learning and would like some thoughts on this subject.

shihonage 01-17-2002 10:14 PM

Re: defending against a boxer
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Bernie V
Hi,
This is my first post. I have been taking aikido for a year now. I love it but I am still a doubting Thomas on whether it works.
I also just started to do some boxing to get the feel of a real attack and also to get see how my Aikido could be used to defend . Right now, when I am boxing I just box, but in the back of my mind I am thinking on how to use irimi or tenkan and also what technique I could use to immobilize or throw. forgive
my naiveness but I am still learning and would like some thoughts on this subject.

Buy the Seagal film "Out for Justice" on DVD (its cheap) and see how he does things.
View it in slow motion as well.

If you're seriously interested, then what he does will give you new ways of looking at things. This film has the best bar scene ever.

Edward 01-17-2002 11:59 PM

Welcome Bernie,

This issue has been discussed in many threads, probably because boxers really constitute a real threat. They know how to give effective blows, quickly and powerfully.

Aikido usually works better on committed attacks, when the opponent really means to hit with all his power. This kind of attack is very dangerous because it can be so quick you won't have time to react, and if it hits you, you're finished. However, if you can do a tenkan on time, then, the rest is up to you...

But if there is no committed attack, the kind of punches you see boxers throwing during matches, in preparation for the KO, in this case you need to be at a very high technical level in order to be able to defend yourself, probably not less than 3-4 Dan (and consequently not less than 40 years old!). But since we at Aikido prefer to avoid fighting, it would be reasonably easy to keep a safe distance (Maai) and wait for that committed attack. If it doesn't come, then even better. The conflict can be resolved without fighting.

Cheers,
Edward

Edward 01-18-2002 12:02 AM

By the way, boxers tend to be very fit and strong. So I don't think it's a smart idea to fight with them ;)

AskanisoN 01-18-2002 12:38 AM

"Fight a boxer and box a fighter."
-Bruce Lee

REK 01-18-2002 06:03 AM

Aikido Today Magazine interviewed Kuriowa Sensei, who had begun his pugilism training as a boxer and had moved to Aikido. I don't know the issue #, but I do remember that he had some helpful perspective on the meeting of the two.

Rob

Brian Vickery 01-18-2002 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by REK
Aikido Today Magazine interviewed Kuriowa Sensei, who had begun his pugilism training as a boxer and had moved to Aikido. I don't know the issue #, but I do remember that he had some helpful perspective on the meeting of the two.

Rob

FYI:

It's in ATM issue #34, the article is titled: "A Common Sense Look at Aikido" written by Y.Kuroiwa & J. Roth

Jem8472 01-18-2002 12:11 PM

I think with anyone that can punch as well as a boxer, it might help to move out of the way of the punch don't do anything just move. Alod this will help make him tired. Untill he throws a punch and overstreches himself the is your opening to do something and put him on the ground.

shihonage 01-18-2002 12:12 PM

There's no such thing as a "Aikidoka" vs. "Boxer".

There are two people. One of them becomes hostile. The other does what they have to do.

Aikido is not a sport. It's not been made to survive in athletic competitions, where there are rounds, stances, rules, determined environment, and excessive endurance is required.

Aikido is not a game.

PeterR 01-18-2002 12:32 PM

Boxing may be a sport but a boxer is a trained fighter specializing in a certain skill set and perfectly capable of stepping outside the ring. The question, if Aikido is to maintain any claim to being a martial way, is perfectly valid and to give Bernie his due he is not just talking about it but exploring it.

Can a person trained in the techniques of Aikido hold their own against a person trained in the techniques of a boxer. Good answers so far I have nothing to add.

There are boxers out there, even today, that consider boxing a way of life. Not a game by any means.

A dojo is not a determined environment?





Quote:

Originally posted by shihonage
There's no such thing as a "Aikidoka" vs. "Boxer".

There are two people. One of them becomes hostile. The other does what they have to do.

Aikido is not a sport. It's not been made to survive in athletic competitions, where there are rounds, stances, rules, determined environment, and excessive endurance is required.

Aikido is not a game.


shihonage 01-18-2002 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PeterR
Boxing may be a sport but a boxer is a trained fighter specializing in a certain skill set and perfectly capable of stepping outside the ring. The question, if Aikido is to maintain any claim to being a martial way, is perfectly valid and to give Bernie his due he is not just talking about it but exploring it.

Can a person trained in the techniques of Aikido hold their own against a person trained in the techniques of a boxer. Good answers so far I have nothing to add.

There are boxers out there, even today, that consider boxing a way of life. Not a game by any means.

A dojo is not a determined environment?

If we're not talking about a ring, then let's talk reality.

In real life, there's no predetermined environment. There's no predetermined skills, there's no predetermined minds (i.e. Aikido practitioner who would actually attempt a kotegaeshi vs. one who would attempt an eyerake and a Judo legsweep vs. one who would "project" a nearby chair into the attacker and assault him with a broomstick vs. one who would piss his pants and hope that the smell drives the boxer away), there's absolutely nothing to make any decisions by.

Is the boxer smart ? Stupid ? Tall ? Wide ? Enraged ? Calm ? Drunk ? Sober ?..

Does he have friends ? Did your girlfriend just go to the restroom and you can't run away ?

Is he carrying a concealed weapon ?
Are you ?

Is your leg bruised from training last week ?
Are you wearing a thick coat ?
Are you drunk ?

Did he hit you first and thats how it all started ? Where was your awareness ?
Does he have a reason to be enraged ?
Do you have the surrounding crowd on your side ?

Are you BIGGER than him ? Is he intimidated ? Are you ?

What I'm trying to demonstrate, is that unless the question was initially asked about a restricted environment with a set of rules, it was entirely pointless.

However, if it was asked about a restricted environment with a set of rules, it was entirely pointless as well - because Aikido is not made to be a game.

PeterR 01-18-2002 03:00 PM

Alexsey - I thought I was being very careful to talk about skill sets and if I read the original post correctly it wasn't about a boxer and an aikidoist in a street fight.

Do Aikido techniques work against a boxer's attacks which are very very different from the type of attack normally used in an Aikido dojo? I have found out how different and how difficult by dojo experience but ultimately I do believe the answer is yes.

There is an article written by Diane Skoss at http://www.koryu.com on Ma ai. In it she tells a story of asking a Shihan of the Japan Aikido Association (Tomiki) how an Aikidoist can deal with Karate. The single word answer was ma ai. I believe the same answer is valid when dealing with a boxer's attack.

As for street reality I am pretty sure the average boxer can make the transition far easier then the average Aikidoist. It has to do with the type of training, the experience of going against someone that wants to hurt you (that takes serious balls), and ultimately the type of person that gets drawn to boxing as opposed to our little thing.

As for Aikido not being a game - I don't disagree. However, to differentiate boxing and aikido at this level is wrong. Boxing was taught for years at men's clubs (still is) as a means of self-defence and self-improvement whether physical or mental. Aikido does not have the monopoly on that.

Brian Crowley 01-18-2002 04:17 PM

Bernie, I think you've got an interesting cross-training arrangement. I look forward to hearing your input on this subject in the future as you get better at both arts.

Peter's response reminded me of a question I have been meaning to post, so I throw this out to whoever might be willing to drop a few lines -

I notice that frequently when these types of questions come up, the answer, "ma-ai" is presented as the key to prevailing in the situation for the Aikidoist. I sometimes wonder if Aikidoists put too much hope in this concept. This may just be a reflection of my limited knowledge on the topic:

Does ma-ai just refer to keeping a proper distance from the opponent to allow your application of technique ? As a former fencer I appreciate the concept. However, outside the dojo (or fencing strip) you frequently have to deal with the distance (and terrain) you are given. If you are actually forced to fight, and not exit the situation, that probably means the distance is up close and personal.

What are your thoughts on the practicality of maintaing ma-ai outside the dojo ?

Brian

daedalus 01-18-2002 04:56 PM

A quick note on enviroment, awareness, and maai.

Once there was a class in which the instructor asked the students to ask him how to defend against any attack. People gave examples of roundhouse punches, knife in the back, etc. One person gave the following scenerio:

"You have your back against the wall and your attacker has you pinned by the throat on the wall so that your feet are no longer touching the ground."

The teacher asked him to get up and show him the attack. A few steps before the student got within kicking range, the instructor took one step and his back was no longer facing the wall.

"Be aware of your surroundings. Don't put yourself in that position, and you won't need to defend from it. But just in case you forget..."

From there he allowed the student to lift him by his throat and went on to show an escape using atemi and whatnot.

Enviroment can be controlled as much as the situation. Don't try and control it, just blend with it and everything works out. Or you get pummeled. No, wait, just the first one. ;^)

PeterR 01-18-2002 05:13 PM

Hey Brian;

I really suggest you read the article by Diane Skoss on Maai.

http://koryu.com/library/dskoss2.html

Bernie V 01-18-2002 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shihonage


If we're not talking about a ring, then let's talk reality.

In real life, there's no predetermined environment. There's no predetermined skills, there's no predetermined minds (i.e. Aikido practitioner who would actually attempt a kotegaeshi vs. one who would attempt an eyerake and a Judo legsweep vs. one who would "project" a nearby chair into the attacker and assault him with a broomstick vs. one who would piss his pants and hope that the smell drives the boxer away), there's absolutely nothing to make any decisions by.

Is the boxer smart ? Stupid ? Tall ? Wide ? Enraged ? Calm ? Drunk ? Sober ?..

Does he have friends ? Did your girlfriend just go to the restroom and you can't run away ?

Is he carrying a concealed weapon ?
Are you ?

Is your leg bruised from training last week ?
Are you wearing a thick coat ?
Are you drunk ?

Did he hit you first and thats how it all started ? Where was your awareness ?
Does he have a reason to be enraged ?
Do you have the surrounding crowd on your side ?

Are you BIGGER than him ? Is he intimidated ? Are you ?

What I'm trying to demonstrate, is that unless the question was initially asked about a restricted environment with a set of rules, it was entirely pointless.

However, if it was asked about a restricted environment with a set of rules, it was entirely pointless as well - because Aikido is not made to be a game.

so far all the input has been interesting and imformative. I am asking about boxing
as one form of an attack you would see on the street. Iam not talking about using my aikido as a sport. The dojo is a controlled environment and I am being practical. I believe to know if the art is useful you have to be put in fighting situations as real as
possible. I decided on trying boxing to 'feel' what it like to get hit a couple of times in the noggin. it't scary at first. I think unless you know what it like to have some 230 pound bubba (somebody I boxed, 40 pounds heavier than me) and who knows how to
ring your bell you will be useless in a real world situation.

AskanisoN 01-18-2002 09:34 PM

Hi Bernie,

I think that for most people, the best way to learn is to do. If possible, try to get a friend that boxes to participate in a "controled" experiment with you. At least this way you will have a better idea of what may or may not work for you. And, I think you will come away with new insight on your questions. Besides that, I'm sure your boxing practice will realy improve your atemi. :D

Best a Luck,

Scott

Bernie V 01-19-2002 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PeterR
Alexsey - I thought I was being very careful to talk about skill sets and if I read the original post correctly it wasn't about a boxer and an aikidoist in a street fight.

Do Aikido techniques work against a boxer's attacks which are very very different from the type of attack normally used in an Aikido dojo? I have found out how different and how difficult by dojo experience but ultimately I do believe the answer is yes.

There is an article written by Diane Skoss at http://www.koryu.com on Ma ai. In it she tells a story of asking a Shihan of the Japan Aikido Association (Tomiki) how an Aikidoist can deal with Karate. The single word answer was ma ai. I believe the same answer is valid when dealing with a boxer's attack.

As for street reality I am pretty sure the average boxer can make the transition far easier then the average Aikidoist. It has to do with the type of training, the experience of going against someone that wants to hurt you (that takes serious balls), and ultimately the type of person that gets drawn to boxing as opposed to our little thing.

As for Aikido not being a game - I don't disagree. However, to differentiate boxing and aikido at this level is wrong. Boxing was taught for years at men's clubs (still is) as a means of self-defence and self-improvement whether physical or mental. Aikido does not have the monopoly on that.

PeterR
I was referring to confronting a boxer or
someone who is using boxing skills who is attacking you. I just want to be prepared
for anything, not just some clumsy nut who is
just wildly attacking you.

Bernie V

BernieV

Abasan 01-19-2002 11:05 AM

maai...
 
Quote:

I notice that frequently when these types of questions come up, the answer, "ma-ai" is presented as the key to prevailing in the situation for the Aikidoist. I sometimes wonder if Aikidoists put too much hope in this concept.
The problem here is maai is not unique to Aikido. Karate, Tai Chi, etc etc... all teaches maai. Different terms maybe, but its all there. So forget maai as a one stop solution to all attacks when you're going against a trained fighter who knows everything about spatial/relational distance. Especially a boxer who's out there in the ring everyday dishing it out to another boxer who won't have a problem giving as good as he gets. If their distance/timing/awareness is all wrong, they're going to get a massive wake up call.

Just my thots anyway...

PeterR 01-19-2002 01:03 PM

Re: maai...
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Abasan


The problem here is maai is not unique to Aikido. Karate, Tai Chi, etc etc... all teaches maai. Different terms maybe, but its all there. So forget maai as a one stop solution to all attacks when you're going against a trained fighter who knows everything about spatial/relational distance. Especially a boxer who's out there in the ring everyday dishing it out to another boxer who won't have a problem giving as good as he gets. If their distance/timing/awareness is all wrong, they're going to get a massive wake up call.

Just my thots anyway...

True - ma ai after all is just combative distance not some magical trick. I think the point to the one word answer is that you must adjust ma ai based on who or what you are facing and where you are facing them. Of course as you mentioned the trained and or experienced fighter is doing the exact same thing. You just must do it better.

Brian Crowley 01-19-2002 04:23 PM

Thanks for the ma-ai comments folks.

Bernie, I never really commented on your question before going off on my ma-ai tangent. My opinion is that most Aikidoists would have trouble with a boxer in a "real fight". I think most would find a flurry of jabs, feints and assorted puching combinations to be a bit overwhelming in comparison to the usual attacks that they train against. I'm not saying this would always be the case - clearly it wouldn't. I also think Aleksey's points regarding the other factors in a real fight is right on point.

As for ma-ai, I think people should remember that in most sportive martial arts (including boxing, karte, kickboxing, fencing, etc.) there is a range of fighting in which the contestants agree to fight by using footwork to move in out of that striking range. When the fighters get too close - as they frequently do - a ref stops things to provide additional distance to allow the match to continue. Similarly, in an Aikido dojo, we practice with attacks that are performed from a "correct" distance. My personal feeling is that the lack of a ref, or the controlled environment of dojo, means that ma-ai "on the street" has whole new meaning.

Of course, the best advice, when it's possible, was provided earlier - ie. don't put yourself in the situation. However some people, either because of their profession, neighborhood or just bad luck have no choice. To those people, I would say don't count on your ability to manipulate ma-ai. Make sure you know how to fight in close ! If you can learn that in your Aikido class, great. If not, you might want to supplement your training. If you want suggestions on how, let me know.

Brian

shihonage 01-19-2002 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian Crowley
Make sure you know how to fight in close ! If you can learn that in your Aikido class, great. If not, you might want to supplement your training.
I must say that I ordered Senshido tapes about a year ago (Tactical Urban Set #1, 4 tapes) and they are a must-have for an Aikido practitioner who is concerned with reality of his/her training.

Period.

Edward 01-20-2002 04:14 AM

I think one must be reasonable in one's expectations. Before I took up Aikido, I knew that it is a "soft" MA, which purpose is to subdue an unsuspecting attacker without hurting him. Nothing in Aikido training suggests that we would be able to "compete" against other MA, neither in terms of violence of the techniques, nor in terms of the physical training which is by far inferior to the standard training of let's say an amateur boxer.

I think the main value of Aikido resides in other aspects than in its martial efficiency.

I think in theory aikidoka don't fight. In case one is put in a situation where fighting is anavoidable, probably the most important factors in determining the winner are physical strength and ruthlessness. Apart from that, we have seen in competitions that even with a clear winner and looser, if you repeat the match under exactly the same conditions, the outcome is not necessarily similar.

Just a few thoughts.

Cheers,
Edward

Suru 01-20-2002 11:19 AM

simplicity?
 
Aikido teaches us some important self defense, but it is not as simple and straightforward as other martial arts from what I've seen. This makes it more complicated and difficult. As it is much quicker in a fight to add 1+1=2 than divide 253 by 57=whatever, aikido is probably not the most efficient combat method. I've found in my life, however, that aikido philosophy (which comes alive through training and reading,) keeps me out of trouble. I've found that if I just don't severely piss anyone off, no one wants to fight me. Maybe it's just that simple after all.

Erik 01-20-2002 01:11 PM

Everytime I read something like this I start to wonder about something:

Are you people really thinking about one-on-one fair fights?

If so, WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE!


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:26 PM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.