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-   -   Tenchi nage (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14512)

dalen7 05-21-2008 04:42 AM

Tenchi nage
 
Yes, Im on a roll...but then again Im testing in about a month...or less.

So Im trying to figure out the practicality of some of these moves so I can remember them better as well as better execute them.
Moves that dont seem to work, I have no real reference point to remember. (Talking more of Kokyu Nage - though Im sure Im going to remember that now. I guess the move comes from more of a sword technique...enough on that, as thats in another thread here in the techniques page.)

On to Tenchi Nage.
This basically looks like a wrestling move.
You go up, and move Ukes arm to the outside (in gyaku Hanmi katate tori) and then take your other arm and 'ram' it in his neck to make him fall. (Well not literally ram it), but it seems like an inverse iriminage of sorts.

Any input into this and things to watch for and how to improve technique would be helpful.

Peace

dAlen

dalen7 05-21-2008 05:06 AM

Re: Tenchi nage
 
So this is the "heaven and earth throw?" - correct?

If so, it doesnt seem to work as well with gyaku Hanmi katate tori...unless, of course, you are trying some wrestling move. ;)

Peace

dAlen

Pauliina Lievonen 05-21-2008 05:12 AM

Re: Tenchi nage
 
Try and use your earth hand to get uke slightly out of balance so that they bend back a little bit. That makes the next step in the technique easier.

kvaak
Pauliina

justin 05-21-2008 05:23 AM

Re: Tenchi nage
 
thats the way i think of it as well make sure the balance is broken or the technique becomes a battle of the strongest.

dalen7 05-21-2008 05:30 AM

Re: Tenchi nage
 
Quote:

Pauliina Lievonen wrote: (Post 206978)
Try and use your earth hand to get uke slightly out of balance so that they bend back a little bit. That makes the next step in the technique easier.

kvaak
Pauliina

I think I got it.

So basically earth hand goes down and then to the back of uke a bit so that the 'heaven' hand can more easily take them down?

Cool, thanks

peace

dAlen

Beard of Chuck Norris 05-21-2008 06:01 AM

Re: Tenchi nage
 
Lead them away from where they are strong: take their centre.

Tenchi nage was explained to me first as two parts: 1/2 sumi otoshi (corner drop) 1/2 irimi nage (fingers past eyes).

Heaven AND Earth, not Heaven OR Earth.

Also, remember to "stand in between Heaven and Earth" (back straight) when you do it (remaining strong in posture and mind).

dalen7 05-21-2008 07:03 AM

Re: Tenchi nage
 
Quote:

Jo Duncan wrote: (Post 206985)

Tenchi nage was explained to me first as two parts: 1/2 sumi otoshi (corner drop) 1/2 irimi nage (fingers past eyes).

Also, remember to "stand in between Heaven and Earth" (back straight) when you do it (remaining strong in posture and mind).

thanks, that helps me to better picture how to do the technique. :)

Peace

dAlen

charyuop 05-21-2008 06:39 PM

Re: Tenchi nage
 
Quote:

Jo Duncan wrote: (Post 206985)
Lead them away from where they are strong: take their centre.

Tenchi nage was explained to me first as two parts: 1/2 sumi otoshi (corner drop) 1/2 irimi nage (fingers past eyes).

Heaven AND Earth, not Heaven OR Earth.

Also, remember to "stand in between Heaven and Earth" (back straight) when you do it (remaining strong in posture and mind).

Standing between heaven and earth? If I did it my Sensei would stop me immediately. He wants both arms streight in front of me, not on the side.

rob_liberti 05-21-2008 07:28 PM

Re: Tenchi nage
 
Quote:

Jo Duncan wrote: (Post 206985)
Lead them away from where they are strong: take their centre.

Tenchi nage was explained to me first as two parts: 1/2 sumi otoshi (corner drop) 1/2 irimi nage (fingers past eyes).

Heaven AND Earth, not Heaven OR Earth.

Also, remember to "stand in between Heaven and Earth" (back straight) when you do it (remaining strong in posture and mind).

I totally agree with the sumi otoshi side for the "chi kokyu" part.
For the "tne kokyu" part, you are certainly not wrong in my opinion, but I prefer to associate this part with the hand that goes near uke's elbow for ikkyo.

The draw in for this on is the interesting part. Set you mental intention threw uke's shoulder of the hand that will eventually go up (the same place I feel center power entering me during when ikkyo is being done on me).

For beginners it is helpful to remember to think elbows in (also for shihonage for that matter).

When you throw, if the resistance is on the higher hand, you want to make sure your hips are not facing the same direction as your "ten kokyu" hand. However, IF the resistance is primarily on the lower hand (the "chi kokyu" hand) I would imagine you didn't slide under them as well as you could have. At this point, a good thing to try it so completely switch the sence and raise that hand and lower your other one and go for the other direction.

Rob

dalen7 05-21-2008 11:20 PM

Re: Tenchi nage
 
Quote:

Gianluigi Pizzuto wrote: (Post 207036)
Standing between heaven and earth? If I did it my Sensei would stop me immediately. He wants both arms streight in front of me, not on the side.

Its at this point that it would be good to see this in video at youtube.
(With each instructor telling why they do this.)

The next step would be to try both methods, after watching, for oneself to 'feel' the difference and see if what is being said is really working. (If so then you have two alternatives. Or in some cases you may be able to streamline two techniques into one.)

This is what is so cool about coming here...its diverse in how we practice and you can enrich your own Aikido by learning through others. :)

Peace

dAlen

dalen7 05-21-2008 11:25 PM

Re: Tenchi nage
 
Quote:

Rob Liberti wrote: (Post 207040)
I totally agree with the sumi otoshi side for the "chi kokyu" part.

For the "tne kokyu" part, you are certainly not wrong in my opinion, but I prefer to associate this part with the hand that goes near uke's elbow for ikkyo.

Rob

"chi kokyu"
"ten kokyu"

Sometimes when Im on these boards I feel there is an apsect of Aikido Im just not learning. ;)

Seriously some terms are thrown around casually like common every day words - and I havent seen them anywhere (training syllabus, etc)... Is this more the philosophy side of aikido? (Or are they techniques?)

Peace

dAlen

grondahl 05-22-2008 01:16 AM

Re: Tenchi nage
 
Well, your live in eastern europe, train with people that you obviously canīt have regular conversations with and your instructor is a shodan ;)
I would say that there definitely is aspects of aikido that you miss out on. On the other hand conditions like this forces you to take control over your own progress and learning so it ainīt all bad if you can get access to higher quality instruction once in a while.

Quote:

Dalen Johnson wrote: (Post 207054)
Sometimes when Im on these boards I feel there is an apsect of Aikido Im just not learning. ;)

Seriously some terms are thrown around casually like common every day words - and I havent seen them anywhere (training syllabus, etc)... Is this more the philosophy side of aikido? (Or are they techniques?)


dalen7 05-22-2008 01:38 AM

Re: Tenchi nage
 
Quote:

Peter Gröndahl wrote: (Post 207060)
Well, your live in eastern europe, train with people that you obviously canīt have regular conversations with and your instructor is a shodan ;)
I would say that there definitely is aspects of aikido that you miss out on. On the other hand conditions like this forces you to take control over your own progress and learning so it ainīt all bad if you can get access to higher quality instruction once in a while.

summarized quite nicely. :)

I now have the techniques broken down in digestible bites.
(Again using both my test requirements as well as Aikido 3D)

So that means I understand the basics of the groupings:
- Tachi Waza/Suwari Waza
- Naga Waza/Katama waza

As well as getting used to some other terms and concepts:
- Jiyu Waza (albeit it says emphasis on staying away...or moving away...so I can only assume that me doing the full technique was actually incorrect when doing Jiyu waza with one person in training.)

Beyond that, (what I have listed on my techniques paper, and the aikido 3d program) I dont really have anything else to go by.

If the terms are more from philosophy (the ones mentioned above) then that is why I am missing out on it. (and it may not even be taught...if its technique, then I can say it is not taught.

Anyhow...I am enjoying Aikido - more so now than before.
It was more of a struggle and challenge in the past - Now Im trying to make the most of what the moment gives (whatever moment that is in life) ;)

I will say our shodan (he was just promoted in April) is really good though...technique wise.

Again, the structure of how we learn in class may not be the best. (i.e., after a year we just learned udekime nage, which is on my test I am taking in a few weeks - there are some other techniques like this that we have practiced less frequently as well.)

That aside, we do have two people that I can actually communicate with. They dont show up most the time, and one stopped altogether. (He started teaching in another city, he is a 2nd kyu police officer)

Their English is as good as my Hungarian...Ill be honest, its actually better. :)
But the main difference is not necessarily who knows the language better...but they are willing to try to communicate and determined to show how it should be done.

The attitude really goes the furthest.
Im like the guys above, but if the people are not receptive (or shy) you wont get anywhere no matter how much you try.

There are a couple of others, though, (no language skill really, per say) and they are pretty good at getting the techniques across.

Its been an interesting experience for sure. And quite interesting for me to train with each one of them. (Helps to enrich my Aikido experience as I have mentioned before.)

What would be the irony is if I get to shodan here (yes, lets forget the language bit...no Im not saying my Hungarian wont improve...heheh), but still not know the terms above. (I only say that as I see no hint of them where I train.)

It could be a style thing perhaps? I dont know.

But Im here at aikiweb to learn what I can, and pick up what I can.

Peace

dAlen

- actually Aikiweb is my dojo outside of the dojo.
The place where I can freely chat about aikido - since I cant fluently chit chat about it in Hungarian at the present time. :)

Beard of Chuck Norris 05-22-2008 02:27 AM

Re: Tenchi nage
 
It's bloody hard to explain techniques through text, the best way ALWAYS is to ask your teacher.

As you can see people do things differently. Trying to explain things simply leaves massive holes in the explanation... solution? Practice practice practice.

Gianluigi, i don't know how what you said conflicts with what i said; care to elaborate?

I'm also not getting what you meant their Rob...

Dalen, the "chi kokyu" (Earth) and "ten kokyu" (Heaven) are just the components of "ten-chi nage" i.e. one goes down, one goes up.

-I wouldn't take what I say very seriously; i'm really quite rubbish! But like most people on here, i just love this stuff! :D

dalen7 05-22-2008 02:44 AM

Re: Tenchi nage
 
Quote:

Jo Duncan wrote: (Post 207065)
It's bloody hard to explain techniques through text, the best way ALWAYS is to ask your teacher.

As you can see people do things differently. Trying to explain things simply leaves massive holes in the explanation... solution? Practice practice practice.

Dalen, the "chi kokyu" (Earth) and "ten kokyu" (Heaven) are just the components of "ten-chi nage" i.e. one goes down, one goes up.

-I wouldn't take what I say very seriously; i'm really quite rubbish! But like most people on here, i just love this stuff! :D

Well as for why not ask my teacher...there is an interesting thread going on in the language forum right now that is covering this issue...although it wasnt originally meant to do so. ;)

Also, as mentioned, I have learned quite a bit from aikiweb - and you went to prove my point again...thanks for the explanation you posted. :)

Yes, I would not say written is the best way.
There are 'ideally' the best case scenarios...but those remain 'idealistic' while life gives us the opportunity to make that which seems impossible, possible. :)

I do agree in that it would seem, at least in my case (as each person needs something different) that a combo of written and video would do.

And again, the written helps supplement a lot when i practice...it just clicks. And what I learn here, I can then use with my Hungarian (uhh mmm) :) to further develop my technique at the dojo.

Trust me there is communication at the dojo...but, I ask what I can here and see what answers i can get. (Use the resources I have available to get the clearest picture.)

Again, thanks for the post and the explanation.

Peace

dAlen

Beard of Chuck Norris 05-22-2008 05:46 AM

Re: Tenchi nage
 
Ah, i get you. Well... you do have a common language; feeling the technique!

Try to pay attention when receiving to "feel" where you are led. Remember when you are uke there is more going on than just being a dummy for nage to practice on; it's your practice too.

philippe willaume 05-22-2008 06:04 AM

Re: Tenchi nage
 
Quote:

Dalen Johnson wrote: (Post 206970)
Yes, Im on a roll...but then again Im testing in about a month...or less.

So Im trying to figure out the practicality of some of these moves so I can remember them better as well as better execute them.
Moves that dont seem to work, I have no real reference point to remember. (Talking more of Kokyu Nage - though Im sure Im going to remember that now. I guess the move comes from more of a sword technique...enough on that, as thats in another thread here in the techniques page.)

On to Tenchi Nage.
This basically looks like a wrestling move.
You go up, and move Ukes arm to the outside (in gyaku Hanmi katate tori) and then take your other arm and 'ram' it in his neck to make him fall. (Well not literally ram it), but it seems like an inverse iriminage of sorts.

Any input into this and things to watch for and how to improve technique would be helpful.

Peace

dAlen

hello
I do not know if that will helps this how I understand it.
Anyway moving your arm is to break his posture and open him up.
You will have to move to the side (so that you get out direct punches and kicks

as you do that start an uppercut, in training missing his head is considered good manners.
As you pass near his neck/moving forward wind your uppercut as if you wanted to point downwards with the index (or wanted to see your watch behind his head)
Due to his head being smacked back (or in our case moved back with co-operation) the now downward pointing arms. You can make him fall by completing you movement forward.

phil

dalen7 05-22-2008 08:13 AM

Re: Tenchi nage
 
Quote:

Philippe Willaume wrote: (Post 207081)

as you do that start an uppercut, in training missing his head is considered good manners.

Ah, now an uppercut is something I can relate to. :)

Peace

dAlen

senshincenter 05-22-2008 08:27 AM

Re: Tenchi nage
 
Here's my take on the technique:

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/vids/tenchinage.html

dalen7 05-22-2008 08:33 AM

Re: Tenchi nage
 
Quote:

David Valadez wrote: (Post 207097)

Your first sentence was an eye opener for me.
On my test paper there is a term that says Kihon Waza...

I kept scratching my head wondering what it was about.
After all the techniques were those I had already done...bingo.

They are basic techniques from the previous test.
(For me Im taking both test at once, but regardless I got the point now.)

Now on to the rest of the article to see what I find. ;)

Thanks -

Peace

dAlen

dalen7 05-22-2008 08:39 AM

Re: Tenchi nage
 
Quote:

David Valadez wrote: (Post 207097)

good video...love the slow motion - 'ouch'. :)
also your full article was good as well.

again, thanks

Peace

dAlen

p.s. I wanted to add that something just has become more clear to me.
In my mock test this past Tuesday, I wasnt sure what Tenchinage was at first...I actually started doing the move for gyaku hanmi ikkyo katate tori. (Just the first part.)

I know, sounds funny, but here is why I did it. I remember hearing the movement being called Tenchinage (the bit before you go into ikkyo from gyaku hami katate tori)...but now I believe it probably was that the instructor was trying to explain the hand movement is similar to Tenchinage. Remember Im learning in a language I dont really understand...so I do what I can. ;)

Again, it would only really resemble Tenchinage, I guess, if you could do a strike to the face (atemi) which would have your hand up on the left and your arm (being held) down on the right...then you would move your free arm down to 'chop' ukes arm so you can take them into ikkyo.

Anyway, this is good stuff - nice to see how the puzzle goes together and to better understand whats happening in the dojo. :) - peace

rob_liberti 05-24-2008 08:14 AM

Re: Tenchi nage
 
Quote:

Jo Duncan wrote: (Post 207065)
I'm also not getting what you meant their Rob...

Well, I'm not sure which part.
I only said few things.
1) the ten no kokyu hand is like the hand near the elbow in ikkyo
2) where to fix your mental intention
3) the terms - which you explained just fine
4) and when to think about switching hands up and down as a plan b

I assume your confusion is with the mental intention part. All I can say is just try it. If you are moving your arms with muscle from side to side that's easily countered and the uke can simply let go and whack you.

Rob

Beard of Chuck Norris 05-26-2008 01:31 AM

Re: Tenchi nage
 
No real confusion, just wondering how what you said is different from what I said. No confusion on the "mental intention" part that's for sure... i think it's more the ikkyo comment. Guess i'm just used to thinking about it one way; i'll have a play tonight based on what you said.

Impossible to go over it like this (text) i guess.

Cheers!

Jo


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