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mwible 04-17-2008 01:53 PM

Aikido. The Martial Art.
 
I have only studied Aikido for 2 years (i have prior training in other MA too), but i study diligently and i train hard. So please judge my post accordingly.

Now, for my question and my reason for making a post:

I have thought a lot recently about sparring in general and its affects with Aikido; and YES i have sparred other MA practitioners, including MMA guys (just to experiment). And, after my experiences with that, and just my thoughts on Aikido in general, i can't get away from the thoughts of how deadly Aikido really is. I mean, in sparring with other martial arts, you hit, punch and kick them to make your point (and yes you can do that as well with Aikido), but with our chosen Martial Art, if you spar with someone else from another MA, I believe that the only way to really win (by using Aikido) would be to severely injure them. I just don't see a standing submission happening too often in sparring, they wont want to give up, you would have to really crank something on them and break something to win, that, or throw them to the floor; but even with that, you can most certainly, and probably would injure them.

I am not saying that Aikido is meant to be brutal and hurtful, I'm just saying that from my point of view, that is how it would have to end up if someone was really trying to injure you, or if your only objective was to win at any cost necessary.

I'm just trying to see if anyone see's my point of view as flat out wrong, or if anyone feels the same way as I do. That Aikido is a very deadly and effective martial art.

Rei, Domo,

-Morgan

DonMagee 04-17-2008 02:25 PM

Re: Aikido. The Martial Art.
 
I disagree for the most part. Most aikido techniques I have seen are perfectly legal in many combat sports. Most combat sport practitioners know when to submit. None of the locks and throws in aikido are any more dangerous then the locks and throws of bjj or judo. Seriously, I can destroy your knee much faster with a heel hook then you can cause serious injury to my wrist with nikkyo. Judo throws against a person who has no skill in falling are just as devastating as any aikido throw. See karyo's shoulder lock hari throws for an example.

I think people's bodies are more resilient then we give them credit for. I've been thrown against my will while in a wrist lock, I've been throw against my will by my aikido instructor, I've been throw against my will while in a shoulder lock. I've been submited with neck cranks, spine locks, knee bars, heel hooks, ankle locks, wrist locks of every aikido variety, elbow locks, toe holds, etc all in sparing. Some of them so fast and so hard I was sure I was injured. Only to find I was fine (or just sore for a few days).

IMHO the heel hook is the single most dangerous joint lock you can apply on the human body. It causes serious injury very quickly, and normally the injury happens BEFORE there is any pain. Yet it is a staple of bjj and MMA training.

That said, yes, anyone with the skill can cause serious injury to their opponent. It is just much harder to injure someone (hand to hand) then most people realize.

Ron Tisdale 04-17-2008 02:31 PM

Re: Aikido. The Martial Art.
 
I've seen people dropped on their head on concrete and they got up fighting.

Yeah, sometimes bad things happen too...

Best,
Ron

ChrisHein 04-17-2008 05:22 PM

Re: Aikido. The Martial Art.
 
People get thrown REALLY hard in Judo all the time. Some bjj guys have a few pretty slick standing submissions.

Later in Ueshibas life, he focused on Aikido as a safe way to restrain someone, and many of the hippies that came after worked on this idea as well.

I don't think unarmed Aikido is particularly "deadly".

dps 04-17-2008 05:58 PM

Re: Aikido. The Martial Art.
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 203907)
I don't think unarmed Aikido is particularly "deadly".

http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Dtimes/Pages/articlei.htm

Aikido and Competition
by David Alexander

"Aikido went in the opposite direction from Judo. To quote from "Traditional Aikido", by Morihiro Saito, Vol. V, "It is a well-known fact that matches are prohibited in Aikido. This is because Aikido has inherited a number of lethal techniques from its Founder, which render matches too dangerous an exercise, and also because the art purports to place no restrictions on every conceivable movement.

If the rules are set and dangerous techniques are excluded from the matches, Aikido undoubtedly will lose its raison d'etre. If matches are to be held, all the techniques will have to be scaled down to those consisting mainly of Atemi or the contestants will have to either stake their lives or wear protective gear. A question also arises whether the form of the competition should be limited to empty-handed techniques or should also include the use of weaponry.

Even if only empty-handed techniques are allowed the techniques inherent with Aikido are too terrific to make Ukemi (rolls and somersaults in defense) possible. True, such Ukemi against throwing is made possible deliberately in training sessions. However, execution of techniques becomes uninhibited in matches and the dangers involved are obvious."

David ( not the person being quoted above)

Kevin Leavitt 04-17-2008 07:12 PM

Re: Aikido. The Martial Art.
 
No suprise that I pretty much side with Don on this one. I also don't totally agree with the above quote by David. Weapons certainly affect things, but I don't believe or have seen that aikido has the corner on the market on anything concerning this topic.

eyrie 04-17-2008 07:29 PM

Re: Aikido. The Martial Art.
 
It's not about point scoring - Aikido is not a sport.
It's not about "winning" or "losing" - because Aikido is not a sport.
It's not about being "deadly" or not causing harm - that's based on situation and circumstance, and to an extent, choice.

I think it is necessary to distinguish what is "learning", what is "training", what is "practice" and what is applied use in a "real situation" - they are NOT the same thing.

dps 04-17-2008 08:16 PM

Re: Aikido. The Martial Art.
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 203907)
I don't think unarmed Aikido is particularly "deadly".

Do you think that any of the throws in the folowing video clip would be deadly if the ukes did not know ukemi?

http://www.aikidoedintorni.com/Video...r_bercy_08.htm

David

Keith R Lee 04-17-2008 08:46 PM

Re: Aikido. The Martial Art.
 
Yup, they'd be fine.

You're severely underestimating that resiliency of a motivated person. Go to any skate park in the US and watch kids just EAT pavement, with no protection gear, from 10-12 feet in the air. Some of them will curl up, cry, and be hurt. But the majority of them will get up bleeding, limping, and laughing because they just don't give a f%#$* and can take it.

I'm also with Don, RE: heel hooks. They're regularly way more dangerous than anything in Aikido.

mwible 04-17-2008 09:21 PM

Re: Aikido. The Martial Art.
 
Thank you all for your reply's. I just wanted some more experienced input. My thoughts on the matter havent much changed, but i appreciate your responses, and i will think on them.

domo,
morgan

mwible 04-17-2008 09:22 PM

Re: Aikido. The Martial Art.
 
Quote:

Ignatius Teo wrote: (Post 203916)
It's not about point scoring - Aikido is not a sport.
It's not about "winning" or "losing" - because Aikido is not a sport.
It's not about being "deadly" or not causing harm - that's based on situation and circumstance, and to an extent, choice.

I think it is necessary to distinguish what is "learning", what is "training", what is "practice" and what is applied use in a "real situation" - they are NOT the same thing.

May i ask what exactly you were trying to say by this?

rei,
-morgan

Aikibu 04-17-2008 09:26 PM

Re: Aikido. The Martial Art.
 
Well since we practice Aikido as a Martial Art I sure think there are techniques that are just as "deadly" as a heel hook and our Ukes are taught to keep attacking till they are pinned or subdued...

So sorry folks but I guess I basically disagree with everyone except David and the Shodothugs. :D

The "deadliness" of Aikido is congruent with it's application. The way Aikido is applied in most cases is not Martial in practice or approach but that is the fault of the Instruction and when folks complain about Aikido not "working" I can't argue with them if all they see are pony tailed dancing Aiki Bunnies hopping hither and yon on fields of green rubber tatami.

Shoji Nishio Shihan saw this as a paradox we could work with...Aikido must be effective against other Martial Arts otherwise it is not a Martial Art and... It also must "express" Aikido.... So practice is about beating your swords into plowshares so to speak. :)

William Hazen

ChrisHein 04-17-2008 11:02 PM

Re: Aikido. The Martial Art.
 
Quote:

Keith Lee wrote: (Post 203920)
Go to any skate park in the US and watch kids just EAT pavement, with no protection gear, from 10-12 feet in the air. Some of them will curl up, cry, and be hurt. But the majority of them will get up bleeding, limping, and laughing because they just don't give a f%#$* and can take it.

What he said.

Sometimes people bang their head on the corner of a table and die, but most of the time not. People are pretty tough. If you doubt this, watch some goju kararte guys go at it. Or as Keith said, skaters, landing every which way on hard surfaces all day long.

eyrie 04-17-2008 11:15 PM

Re: Aikido. The Martial Art.
 
Quote:

Morgan Wible wrote: (Post 203924)
May i ask what exactly you were trying to say by this?

rei,
-morgan

I thought that was quite explicit... Which part did you not understand?

JRY 04-18-2008 02:21 AM

Re: Aikido. The Martial Art.
 
It despends on the situation/reaction of the other person etc
I too share the opinion that Aikido techniques can be devastating depending on the situation.
But so is a boxer's punch if it connects properly.
In the street especially when the person is not expecting you to do a technique, they usually get hurt by their own momentum/force. In my opinion about 70% of all street brawls involve wild roundhouse punches. Imagine doing shihonage on this!

The best thing about Aikido is, at its highest level one is able to control his opponent without inflicting injury on the opponent.I suppose ultimately this is the goal that all of us hope to achieve.

mwible 04-18-2008 04:05 AM

Re: Aikido. The Martial Art.
 
Quote:

Ignatius Teo wrote: (Post 203929)
I thought that was quite explicit... Which part did you not understand?

I just didn't think it was very relative to what i was saying and asking.

Peter Seth 04-18-2008 05:59 AM

Re: Aikido. The Martial Art.
 
Hi all. Good thread.
It seems everyone is concentrating on this or that technique, whereas i think just the movement, flow, form etc are more important. Meaning 'ai -ki -do', if performed as I think O'sensei would have liked, the evasion, leading and dissipation or utilisation of an attackers energy should be enough to dissuade or neutralise the attack. In my 47 ish years in martial arts - past 30 or so aikido, I find the potential of 'aiki' do frightening - thats without applying a technique. If you can evade and redirect your opponent into a 'energy void', where his balance and energy virtually dissappear - well, depending on the perceived threat, you can do what is 'necessary'.
I am not naive - there will be situations which you can not handle (thats when the 'leg it' option/technique comes into play). Most people can naturally just 'fight' - some better than others and some with with no ethical or moral high ground to maintain. Aikido and other marts gives you a 'front end' as it were to your defence strategy - if this does not provide the required results then the natural 'fight' will usually kick in. Basically you have a two level defence system.
I think what I am trying to say is that in this case (Aikido) with its practical potential along with its ethical component provides the individual with choices, depending on circumstances. To be aware of and use this first line skill and its whole range of potential from very gentle control to lethal application, as required, with maturity and care. Quote from the film Roadhouse - 'Be nice' - 'untill its time not to be nice'! Also - Its much better to be judged :sorry: by twelve people that to be carried :dead: by six!
Best regards,
Peter

PS: If anyone is in the Sunderland area (north east england) on Sat the 26th april 2008. please call in to The Seaburn Centre where the Sunderland Int Festival of Martial Arts 8, is taking place 10 am till 4pm. Twelve to fourteen different marts demonstrated throughout the day plus much more - great day - lots of fun and excitement - great people donating their skill, experience and time free - all proceeds to Cancer Research UK. Say hi - i'm the old bloke with the microphone and maybe a flurry of activity later in the day.:)

dps 04-18-2008 06:04 AM

Re: Aikido. The Martial Art.
 
From The American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons
http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=A00273

"Skateboarding is an activity in which you move quickly over hard surfaces. It can lead to injuries that range from minor cuts and bruises to catastrophic brain injury. Each year in the United States, skateboarding injuries cause about 50,000 visits to emergency departments and 1500 children and adolescents to be hospitalized. (Source: AAP, March 2002. )

Most hospitalizations involve head injury. Even injuries that heal quickly can cause pain and anxiety, cost time, and money and may lead to disabilities. This can include loss of vision, hearing and speech; inability to walk, bathe, toilet, dress or feed yourself; and changes in thinking and behavior. "

David

DonMagee 04-18-2008 06:36 AM

Re: Aikido. The Martial Art.
 
I'd like to also point out that the most dangerous throws (and the hardest I've ever been thrown) was not by my aikido teacher, or my judo coach. It was by a wrestler.

Wrestlers are not taught explicit ukemi that I know of. None of the ones I have talked to said they learned how to fall. Yet the throws they do are very very hard falls to take.

Injurys due to throws for me in my life:

Aikido: 0
Judo: maybe a 3 or 4 (usually broken fingers)
Wrestling: Probably 7 or 8 (usually my neck or shoulder)

DonMagee 04-18-2008 06:41 AM

Re: Aikido. The Martial Art.
 
Quote:

David Skaggs wrote: (Post 203919)
Do you think that any of the throws in the folowing video clip would be deadly if the ukes did not know ukemi?

http://www.aikidoedintorni.com/Video...r_bercy_08.htm

David

I watched a few minutes of that. A lot of those throws would not cause the average guy to take the kind of high hard falls aikidoka take. They would just tumble to the ground and maybe risk a wrist or arm sprain, possibly a breakage. Only one or two of those throws would really risk the non aikidoka in terms of injury from the throw (those being the hip throws).

A good example is the kotogeshi. Every time I have used this in bjj my opponent does not take a front flippy breakfall. Instead, he flops out to the ground to take pressure off the wrist. A lot of aikidoka see the kotogeshi as a hard dangerous fall when really they are escaping the wrist lock by jumping into a nice breakfall for effect.

charyuop 04-18-2008 07:21 AM

Re: Aikido. The Martial Art.
 
Few months ago I had an incident in the dojo (basically slipped while taking Ukemi) and hurt my shoulder. That had me think about Aikido and his "protect" the opponent.
So I asked my Sensei his opinion. After all I hurt my shoulder, but if I don't know how to take Ukemi could go much worse. It is enough thinking techniques where Uke arches backwards (like for example Shihonage or Iriminage). We are taught to protect our head and wrists (by not putting our hands down first), but someone with no knowledge of Ukemi will have "better" chances to end up on a hard surface with the back of the head first...or maybe breaking a wrist trying to stop his fall.
Sensei answered my question with another question. Why, do you think I couldn't hurt you anyway?

I guess Aikido doesn't really mean protect the opponent, but it means being in control and being able to decide if you really need to hurt or not. After all if I do an iriminage, in the ending part I should be the one who is in the position to decide if you have to go down a more soft way (letting this way land first the body) or make sure that it is the back of your head to kiss the concrete first.

SeiserL 04-18-2008 07:37 AM

Re: Aikido. The Martial Art.
 
Quote:

Morgan Wible wrote: (Post 203895)
I am not saying that Aikido is meant to be brutal and hurtful, I'm just saying that from my point of view, that is how it would have to end up if someone was really trying to injure you, or if your only objective was to win at any cost necessary.

Okay, so yes, Aikido can still be a martial art.
Okay, so yes, Aikido can be brutal and hurtful.
Okay, so yes, in real life, Aikido can go to the extreme.

IMHO, Aikido is is the tool/art. The individual is the artist. It is their/mine/your choice of intent/intensity that makes the difference.

My Aikido works just fine as a martial art, Budo, discipline, a workout, and a good time.

Peace has always been found through the willingness to do battle, and finally choosing not to.

Budd 04-18-2008 07:45 AM

Re: Aikido. The Martial Art.
 
Hardest throw I ever took was from an Edinboro University heavyweight (their coach at that time was Olympic gold medalist Bruce Baumgartner). I was wrestling then at 171, so was QUITE a bit smaller than this guy, who did a suplet/suplex and threw me so hard on my neck/back, that my feet flew over my head and dislocated the big toe on my left foot (the neck and back didn't feel so great, either) . . .

No pain, no gain, right? (#$%#$ ouch)

happysod 04-18-2008 07:50 AM

Re: Aikido. The Martial Art.
 
Quote:

A lot of aikidoka see the kotogeshi as a hard dangerous fall when really they are escaping the wrist lock by jumping into a nice breakfall for effect
had to repeat this for truth and accuracy - a lot of the big ukemis I've seen from many techniques in aikido are "Whee-this-is fun" led happy ukemi rather than necessary.

Keith Larman 04-18-2008 08:49 AM

Re: Aikido. The Martial Art.
 
Quote:

Ian Hurst wrote: (Post 203945)
had to repeat this for truth and accuracy - a lot of the big ukemis I've seen from many techniques in aikido are "Whee-this-is fun" led happy ukemi rather than necessary.

This is one of the reasons (among others) I was told we don't do breakfalls in Seidokan. And practicing that way changes the dynamics quite a bit of certain things and means you have to get very good about kuzushi, range, etc. to maintain control with techniques like kotegaeshi and shihonage. Just fwiw.


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