AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   Non-Aikido Martial Traditions (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=78)
-   -   Ultimate fights expand to include kids (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14202)

Jennifer Yabut 03-27-2008 04:10 PM

Ultimate fights expand to include kids
 
Is anyone else remotely disturbed about this new trend: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080327/...U5bwlu0tdH2ocA

I don't really care for MMA or the UFC, because of the general "brawler" mentality they invoke. I'm also concerned that this hard mat training would *not* be very good for a growing child.

Buck 03-27-2008 05:43 PM

Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids
 
Smells of a child abuse case.

Parents have been charged with child abuse for less.

Creepy is the way the father is living through his kids. Where is the Mother? Is she in the stands eating popcorn?

I can't believe people really think MMA (jujitsu techniques) isn't harmful to a child's joints. That Orand, what a smart guy by saying it's the only real way kids can defend themselves. What a single minded businessmen looking to make a buck anyway he can. He knows that kids bring in the money.

I think any parent who lets their pre-teens do MMA- buying into Orand's sales pitch- definately have been skipped by evolution.

wideawakedreamer 03-27-2008 05:45 PM

Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids
 
I dunno... I took judo when I was nine and I grappled with other kids and nobody complained. I've watched kiddie taekwondo tournaments and nobody complains about those. How is this any different? They're wearing gloves, they have the protective gear, there's a referee, safety rules, etc.

As for the hard mat training not being very good for a growing child - maybe. I don't know whether to agree or disagree because I'm no doctor. But then again, what about all those other martial arts like the ones I mentioned? What about wrestling and boxing? And what about all other kinds of physical sports like soccer and basketball? What is it specifically about MMA training that makes it bad for children?

wideawakedreamer 03-27-2008 05:48 PM

Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids
 
So when is it safe to learn jujitsu techniques? How old do you have to be? I'm asking out of curiosity because I've never taken up jujitsu.

Quote:

Philip Burgess wrote: (Post 202709)

I can't believe people really think MMA (jujitsu techniques) isn't harmful to a child's joints.


wideawakedreamer 03-27-2008 05:51 PM

Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids
 
Yeah, I cringed when I read that part.

Quote:

Philip Burgess wrote: (Post 202709)
That Orand, what a smart guy by saying it's the only real way kids can defend themselves. What a single minded businessmen looking to make a buck anyway he can. He knows that kids bring in the money.

btw, how is this child abuse? Don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to argue, just trying to understand. What makes something like this (training and competing in a martial sport) child abuse?

Buck 03-27-2008 06:37 PM

Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids
 
When I talked to a pediatrician some years back about my kids doing judo, which included Aikido, and jujutsu btw, he recommended kids wait until they are 20 years ideally. He said that when most males stop growing at around that age.Their joints are fully formed and durable to take the stress and resist injury better. He mentioned the new Olympic age rule for girls to compete in Women Gymnastic because of the mental stress what hurting them, the toll it took physically in injuries resulted in a older competing age. He said, why do I want my kids to put their bodies at an added risk at this young age, what is the rush? Do you really want to see me more often, than you do now?

All doctor don't share the same opinion. I am passing on what mine said. I think the best advice is to talk to an Othopedic specialist, as well as other speicalist to get a full education on the subject. Then decide for yourself. After all your kids welfare dependents on you the parent.

Buck 03-27-2008 07:06 PM

Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids
 
Quote:

Rafael Ayala wrote: (Post 202713)
Yeah, I cringed when I read that part.

btw, how is this child abuse? Don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to argue, just trying to understand. What makes something like this (training and competing in a martial sport) child abuse?

I understand, it is a good question. Here in the US we have made a shift toward how we should and shouldn't treat our children. In the past we where not very kind, we were cruel to our children. When my parents and grandparents where kids it was a continued Victorian mentally that didn't see kids to have much worth, or any rights. You can search our history of child labor laws to get a big picture. The greatest change has happened in the last 10 years on how we treat kids. For example, my grandparents got beatings with a tree branch until they got welts, among other torturous punishments for just speaking to an adult at the wrong time. My parents got spanked with a belt or stick for back-talking an adult. If caught cussing they got their mouths washed out with bar soap and other similar unpleasant experiences. I got spanking from my parents open hand a punishment or sent to my room. My kids got time out. That example represents the change in society over the years. We are kinder now to our kids then we have been in the past. We recognized that kids are human, they have human rights and should be honored.

Putting kids in MMA can be seen as abuse. They pit kids against each other to hurt each other in a way that is brutal and not necessary.

Kevin Leavitt 03-27-2008 07:21 PM

Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids
 
My 8 year old son trains in Judo and with me in BJJ and grappling from time to time.

You must look at the rules, which I will have to dig up, they are typically constrained to things that are age appropriate.

Under competent instruction and supervision it is not bad.

As emotional as it may seem to have kids doing MMA, I don't think it is any more harsh than parents that push their kids into competitive Gymnastics, Horseback Riding, Ice Skating or many other sports. I personally cringe watching young girls do some of the things they are made to do with their bodies in Gymnastics. I'd submit that it is every bit as hard on the body and mind as MMA.

MMA becomes very emotional because of the percieved violence that it seems to be directly related to.

parents that object have no issue with their kids watching violence on TV, taking "Soft" violent arts like Karate, TKD, and even aikido. At least in MMA they are being honest about it!

Anyway....just a different perspective.

Bronson 03-28-2008 02:59 AM

Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids
 
Quote:

Philip Burgess wrote: (Post 202719)
When I talked to a pediatrician some years back about my kids doing judo, which included Aikido, and jujutsu btw, he recommended kids wait until they are 20 years ideally. He said that when most males stop growing at around that age.Their joints are fully formed and durable to take the stress and resist injury better. He mentioned the new Olympic age rule for girls to compete in Women Gymnastic because of the mental stress what hurting them, the toll it took physically in injuries resulted in a older competing age. He said, why do I want my kids to put their bodies at an added risk at this young age, what is the rush? Do you really want to see me more often, than you do now?

All doctor don't share the same opinion. I am passing on what mine said. I think the best advice is to talk to an Othopedic specialist, as well as other speicalist to get a full education on the subject. Then decide for yourself. After all your kids welfare dependents on you the parent.

If we all followed this advice our children would be kept from doing anything physical in their early developmental stages and would end up with physical, sensory integration, and mental development delays. Children have developing proprioception and vestibular systems that need to be challenged. Not to mention muscular development and movement patterns that need to be formed and integrated. This idea that keeping children stagnant keeps them safe is ridiculous. Kids NEED to get out and move and they need to move in a wide variety of ways that take full advantage of their available ranges of motion.

Thousands of kids play football, baseball, soccer, hockey and a whole host of other sports with no adverse effects. Yes there are injuries but with proper instruction, age specific rules, and competent coaching and refereeing most kids should be able to participate in sports and expect a pretty reasonable level of safety. I see the bigger problem being immature, over competitive parents who push their children beyond what is safe or reasonable.

Just my take.

Bronson

RonRagusa 03-28-2008 05:18 AM

Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids
 
Two of the kids interviewed in the video:

"... get in there and get it over with and beat up some kid."

and

"I can punch people and not get in trouble."

Pretty much speaks for itself.

Jennifer Yabut 03-28-2008 10:22 AM

Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids
 
I'm also concerned about the "hard training" MMA and "ultimate fighting" entails. Most "striking arts" like Tae Kwon Do don't utilize joint locks. If I recall correctly, Judo doesn't use many joint locks either, right? And don't most (if not all) Aikido dojo have a *minimum* age for children to start training? Not only that, aren't they usually just taught the *basics*, and none of the "harsher" joint locks? I've also heard that joint locks can be harmful to a growing child's body.

However, my main concern can be summed up thusly:

Quote:

Ron Ragusa wrote: (Post 202745)
Two of the kids interviewed in the video:

"... get in there and get it over with and beat up some kid."

and

"I can punch people and not get in trouble."

Pretty much speaks for itself.

...and *that* is my biggest problem with children doing "ultimate fighting". I'm all for children learning the martial arts - but only to learn *self-defense*, *self-discipline*, and *self-control*. NOT so they can learn to beat up other kids better.

d2l 03-28-2008 11:04 AM

Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids
 
I kind of disagree with this little kid M.M.A. I find it rather disgusting that people would stand to profit from this. I'm all for little kids learning to defend themselves and even sparring. I guess I just look at it like someone is going to try and capitalize on this in due time.

It is one thing for a grown man or woman to consent to get their faces smashed in, and another for LITTLE kids.

B.T.W., I'm all for corporal punishment with kids. When I was growing up, if I back talked the belt came out before I could shut my mouth. If I didn't like what was for diner, I didn't eat. If I lied, soap was on the menu.

It seems our society has it's priority's backasswards. Whatever you do, don't smack your kid for being bad, and possibly keep him/her out of prison because they will understand that there is consequences to being bad. But it's o.k. to let them brawl as some kind of spectacle? W.T.F.? :confused:

Josh Reyer 03-28-2008 11:22 AM

Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids
 
Wow!!! Those videos were seriously slanted! The WBZ Boston one, especially. No objectivity, and no understanding of mixed martial arts. The AP video was better, but still ridiculous, referring to the sport as "human cock fighting" and referring to it as "bare-knuckle fights."

And the quotes from the kids? Quick soundbites, with no context at all. How often have we joked on these forums about applying nikyo to people, or taking out our frustrations on uke? What were those kids asked? What did they say before, what did they say after? The first kid in particular sounded like it was cut out of a larger sentence.

Despite commentary making it seem like these kids were engaging in "cockfighting", when I watched the video all I saw was children engaging in adult-supervised, low impact wrestling with all the joint-stress of an ikkyo, and heavily-padded sparring, just like you would see in any family karate or tae kwon do dojo. The video, of course, made no attempt to ascertain the grade levels and differences in training depending on age. They just made it seem like 6 year olds jump right in and start the ground and pound.

I'm beginning to think that the "Octagon" was just the wrong idea. It's given people an entirely wrong image. MMA may be paying for that now. Still, no excuse for such a hachet-job of journalism.

Kevin Leavitt 03-28-2008 02:33 PM

Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids
 
I personally find it hypocritical that we put kids in arts like TKD, reframe elbow smashes, axe kicks, and all that stuff to "Kata" and then put them in the ring and pretend that it is something else other than what is being done in the context that these kids are doing.

At least they are being presented with an honest look at what they are doing.

Can parents and kids loose focus about sportsmanship, respect, and what it is really all about? Certainly...it happens in all sports. This one is no different.

It simply has alot of emotional context to it that some people have a hard time with and certainly it gives the media something to sell.

I'd recommend that you go first hand to one of these events and see what is really going on before dismissing it into a category of it's own separate from all the other sports and arts that are seemingly benign, yet offer the same issues.

Gregory Pinkerton 03-28-2008 04:33 PM

Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids
 
I'm going to have to agree with Kevin on this. Kids compete in wrestling, tae kwon do, kendo, judo, jujutsu, and a number of other 'contact' arts. (I belive in Muay Thai that kids tend to start at an early age, but I may be mistaken as I've no experience with that particular art.)

Dangerous, sure, if there's no one supervising.

(Not having seen a children's mma program in person, it's hard for me to judge. However I doubt someone that's teaching it is going to be let the kids injure themselves that much.)

I'd consider horse riding to be a bit more dangerous as a children's hobby/sport to be honest.

I think it would be worthwhile talking to other children's instructors (in and outside of Aikido) on this discussion. (For those out their teaching children Aikido, do you teach them any joint locks? If so how do you make sure they don't injure each other?)

edtang 03-28-2008 06:26 PM

Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids
 
Quote:

Jennifer Yabut wrote: (Post 202765)
If I recall correctly, Judo doesn't use many joint locks either, right?

I have no idea if they're taught in a children's Judo curriculum, but the joint locks popular in MMA (like arm bars) are all definitely derived from Judo (which Brazilian Jiu Jitsu was derived from).

When I was at Seattle Dojo (the first Judo dojo in the states) trying out a class, there were two girls around the age of 13 giggling as they were practicing collar chokes with an instructor. It's part of the sport, and IMO no different than that aspect of MMA training. Why would it okay in sport Judo but not elsewhere?

edtang 03-28-2008 06:42 PM

Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids
 
As for the "hard training" worries....

Quote:

Jennifer Yabut wrote: (Post 202705)
Is anyone else remotely disturbed about this new trend: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080327/...U5bwlu0tdH2ocA

I don't really care for MMA or the UFC, because of the general "brawler" mentality they invoke. I'm also concerned that this hard mat training would *not* be very good for a growing child.

It's quite obvious you have no first hand experience with any sort of that training.

We do MMA training at my BJJ academy. The BJJ component, as I noted before, is very much derived from Judo (and my academy, as well as the Judo schools around here, either has offered or offers Children's classes). Children's Judo and BJJ is perfectly acceptable, isn't it?

The takedown portion of the class is taught by a wrestling coach. That's wrestling as in elementary/ middle / high school wrestling, which is percieved as very, very common and perfectly acceptable, depending on your school district.

The striking training (kick boxing) is not too dissimiliar to any striking training that involves protected contact (like forms of Karate, TKD, or Muay Thai) that involve younger folks all the time.

It's very hard for me to see why a hybrid curriculum, under proper supervision and with a good teacher, is so bad at all if the separate components are all acceptable, just because it's called "Mixed Marital Arts."

Buck 03-28-2008 06:53 PM

Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids
 
I saw a national TV report on this. I gotta tell ya. It really disturbed me to see those kids fighting in a cage beating on each other. Seeing one 5-6 year old kid do a firemen's carriage and throw the other kid head first to the ground was not pleasant to see. All I thought was broken neck.

The Reporter came on after that and said there are rules to protect kids. Oh my gosh, they missed that one. The rules are by adults and supervised by adults, and poor supervision, poor rules, equals injury for kids. Poor adult supervision and lack of adult concern for the welfare of kids over the sport isn't only in MMA, it's across the board. And I think do we really need more of this?

The Reporter after that said it isn't as bad a football, or wrestling. Then they cut to the older kids fighting, oh I guess the age was about 9 -12 years old where one was on top of another really beating away on the kid on the bottom. Reminded me of a school yard fight when I seen as a kid. It is where the bully is enjoying beating up on the weaker kid, throwing a flurry of punches. I can't help to think what MMA for kids does to them psychologically.

Traditional contact sports are so hard on kids mentally and physically because of the parents, and because of the sports they are designed for adults. We see parents lose it and do horrible things because they are too wound up over their kids and kid sports all of the time.

Kids taking martial arts may not have such screwed up parents, but they do suffer serious injury, and even death from sparring. I don't like sparring or randori for young kids. Kata is all they should be doing untill 18 years olds. I haven't heard a good reason to have kids spar so young.

There is no proof starting young will make you a champion. Sumo has kids starting all the time and not all kids become Champions, and not all Champions started when they were kids.

If a parent feels the need to make their kid a MMA champion, they can have them wrestle (better sport on joints), learn karate (kata), learn judo (at least teaching falling). When an adult, they can incorporate jujutsu skills. Of what I have seen of MMA fighters many learn jujitsu skills within 6 mos of training every day to be effective. The other thing I see is in the UFC they match ground fighters with ground fighters, and stand up fighters with stand up fighters often. Parents grooming and training their kids to fight, the parent has a choice for their kid to be a ground fighter or a stand up fighter. The really don't have to start with MMA training first.

I am not against MMA. MMA is for adults ya know. As it stands now most states don't permit kids fighting in tournaments. Maybe it isn't really something kids should do, or really need to do. More discussion is needed.

Kevin Leavitt 03-28-2008 08:32 PM

Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids
 
Then don't have your kids do it.

I personally would be happy if they would stop showing the news in the restuarants like Applebees which I find highly unsuitable for young kids, but I guess I can take my kids elsewhere if I don't like it.

Gregory Pinkerton 03-28-2008 08:41 PM

Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids
 
Quote:

Philip Burgess wrote: (Post 202781)
Kids taking martial arts may not have such screwed up parents, but they do suffer serious injury, and even death from sparring. I don't like sparring or randori for young kids. Kata is all they should be doing untill 18 years olds. I haven't heard a good reason to have kids spar so young.

This is the first I've heard of death during sparring. Would you please share any articles you have on the subject.

Buck 03-28-2008 11:27 PM

Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids
 
Some years ago, my sister-in-laws kid's dojang had this kid about 17 years old K.O.ed a 15 year old to the head with a hard round house. Supposedly, the 17 year olds foot got up under the poorly worn head gear, and made contact to the 15 year old's head. The 15 year old dropped unconsciously to the floor, and then died latter in the hospital. The 17 year old wasn't supposed to hit the other kid. He was supposed to pull the kick during sparring. My sister-in-law was there. Don't know if it was reported in the local news. Sad matter of events upsets me just writing about it. How tragic.

I remember when my kids where young and the got a head injury the doctor told up us to watch them for 24 hrs. Kids are more susceptible to head injuries that can result in death.

Read this completely http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic929.htm Because I don't have a news paper article of the accident. And because the risk of death that kids face when being pounded in a battery of punches from atop by another kid. And why for me one of several reason I don't recommend or approve of sparring for kids until 18 years old, when asked. Nervous Nelly, yes I am.

Buck 03-28-2008 11:43 PM

Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 202783)
Then don't have your kids do it.

I personally would be happy if they would stop showing the news in the restuarants like Applebees which I find highly unsuitable for young kids, but I guess I can take my kids elsewhere if I don't like it.

It is more of an issue of society then a personal one, such as choosing a place to eat. I am not saying your kids can't do MMA. I am saying am with many states that have laws against kids MMA events. Many states have helmet laws. All states don't let kids drive a car under the age of 16 alone on public roads- excludes farm licenses which have limits and not every kid gets one. How disastrous would it be to have 6-14 year olds driving on the freeway. I shutter to think if there was no law for it.

Should I move out of the US to some other country where my kid can drive at 6 -14 years old? Or do I stay in the US and have my kid wait until he is 16 years old, or older to drive? I think it is a good law not to let kids drive until they are old enough to be responsible and able to do it safely.

dps 03-28-2008 11:51 PM

Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids
 
I think the more important aspect of children participating in contact sports where physical injuries are likely is the cumulative effect that many injuries will have on these children as they grow older. At the age of 53 the many injuries I had as a child and young adult are haunting me. The short term enjoyment of these physical activities can turn into long term physical problems.

David

Kevin Leavitt 03-29-2008 05:20 AM

Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids
 
Phil,

Thanks for explaining your position more.

I think there is a difference between this argument and a helmet law designed to protect people.

If your argument is that MMA should not be allowed for kids because it is dangerous, then I say it is illogical because it completely ignores all the other things and sports that are as or more dangerous for kids

I played contact football growing up from the time I was 8 years old. Knowing now what I know about sports medicine (limited) and kinesiology, I would choose to not let my kids play. having an 8 year old wear an oversized heavy helmet that has probably not been properly sized, that his neck and spine cannot support, then crash into another kid of the same condition is absurd I thiink.

We won't ban that though, even mentioning it can make your patriotism be questioned!

(BTW, it appeared that the kids were wearing protective gear in the MMA stuff).

I could come up with more examples.

Anyway, the point is this, I don't think it is so much an issue of genuinely wanting to protect kids as much as it is an emotional or ethical/morality argument.

Helmet laws are good I think, as they do indeed protect people against their own ignorance, and more importantly they prevent society in carrying the cost economically.

However when we enter the realm of emotion, that is legislating morality or ethics...it becomes more complex.

Should we allow cockfighting? No I don't think so.

MMA for kids? I think it depends on how the events are conducted. Certainly there needs to be a great deal of supervision and adequate rules which cover ethics.

However, once we start applying those ethics to MMA, we need to look at all the sports that kids participate in from football, to soccer, to TMAs or sport/contact Karate, Judo, Gymnastics, whatnot.

If we do not apply the same judgement and criteria sans the emotional issues to them...then we are hypocrites.

Kevin Leavitt 03-29-2008 05:34 AM

Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids
 
Oh, I should probably add that I would probably choose to not have my kid participate in this style of MMA (where striking is involved).

I also do not allow him to play with toy guns or approve of roleplaying that involves him harming another human being.

I don't allow him to watch TV much except for shows that are very mild with no violence.

I think there is too much in the world.

These are choices that I make for him at 8 years old.

He does do Judo, and we do grappling based sports, not involving strikes at this time.

We talk about violence, the cause and effects of it and how our actions and words can be important.

I think eventually we will work on striking...when he is ready to mentally and physically deal with it. I have a personal philosophy that 8 year olds are pushed to hard to compete and to grow up too fast.

So, you will see that probably my personal position on the MMA issue is closer to your own.

I am simply pointing out that if the problem is going to be tackled correctly, it should not be directed at MMA specifically as if it presents some new level or horror of unprecedented nature. The same issues it presents have been sugar coated by kata, goal post, and high bars.

If we are genuine about helping make better kids in society, then we should attack the issue at the root..not having our governments establish more legislation that targets specific things (moral legistlation).


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:52 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.