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NickWaites 03-07-2008 01:15 AM

Ikkyo
 
This is the discussion thread for the AikiWiki article "Ikkyo".

Please add comments below regarding the article.

Stefan Stenudd 03-07-2008 02:26 PM

Re: Ikkyo
 
I like the text. It is both open-minded and precise, and the descriptions are understandable - something that is quite hard to accomplish.

I devoted a whole section of my website to ikkyo, getting sort of carried away:
http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/ikkyo.htm

There, I show it against a number of attacks, but really just one basic form of ikkyo, no variations.

Wouldn't it be great with an ikkyo video library, where you could find many different interpretations of the technique, done by a number of aikidoists?

tuturuhan 03-07-2008 05:42 PM

Re: Ikkyo
 
Stefan,

I looked at your website and I watched your tape. Very nice.

It makes me think of the interval and the interstice. You fill your arms to blend to your opponent's arms...like a balloon until you are one with your opponent.

It is the same technique done over and over but, multiple in technique as you follow the initial technique or as you react to the different methods of attack made by your opponent.

I learned...what I could not see 30, 20, 10 and 5 years ago. Thank you.

Sincerely
Joe

Nick P. 03-07-2008 06:58 PM

Re: Ikkyo
 
Well done.
I was under the impression, however, that the -kyos are pins, which is why the statement "It can also be used as a throw, by extending up into the elbow without then rolling it down." struck me as a little out of place.

To me, if ikkyo did not end with a pin on the ground, not sure I would call it ikkyo.

YMMW.

eyrie 03-07-2008 08:23 PM

Re: Ikkyo
 
"kyo" means "teaching" or "principle". I realize the Yoshinkan call it ikkajo, but in the Daito-ryu tradition, ikkajo is a group of 30 techniques - of which ippon dori is one - the one from which Aikido's ikkyo is derived.

I like to think of ikkyo as "first principles" (as in Math). Ikkyo contains all the foundational elements and forms the basis of all other Aikido techniques - namely the circle, the square and the triangle. For that reason, it is the "mother" of all Aikido techniques.

The pin is only a small part of the whole teaching of ikkyo. There is so much more to ikkyo than just a pin on the ground.

Stefan Stenudd 03-08-2008 01:44 AM

Balloon
 
Quote:

Joseph Arriola wrote: (Post 201162)
You fill your arms to blend to your opponent's arms...like a balloon until you are one with your opponent.

I love the comparison. The image is both to the point and amusing.
Expanding from one's center until making contact with uke. Yes, it is like a balloon :D

tuturuhan 03-08-2008 06:36 AM

Re: Balloon
 
Stephan,

This is something I do in my own practice of tai chi chuan. It fills the interval till there is only the interstice. This is a concept that was common with swords men in musashi's time. "not even a hair should lie within the interstice and you will always be victorious", the monk in a letter to yagyu.

Great conversation. I want to discuss more and more...makes my weekend.

Sincerely
Joe

Stefan Stenudd 03-08-2008 10:19 AM

Contact
 
Quote:

Joseph Arriola wrote: (Post 201190)
"not even a hair should lie within the interstice and you will always be victorious"

I love it. That is optimal contact. No gap between the two, nowhere through the technique.
It happens already when uke focuses on tori with the intent of attacking. Contact is established, and should remain.
I guess you can compare it to training in water. The atmosphere is so thick with contact that any movement is felt throughout.

Nick P. 03-08-2008 11:07 AM

Re: Ikkyo
 
Quote:

Ignatius Teo wrote: (Post 201173)
"kyo" means "teaching" or "principle". I realize the Yoshinkan call it ikkajo, but in the Daito-ryu tradition, ikkajo is a group of 30 techniques - of which ippon dori is one - the one from which Aikido's ikkyo is derived.

I like to think of ikkyo as "first principles" (as in Math). Ikkyo contains all the foundational elements and forms the basis of all other Aikido techniques - namely the circle, the square and the triangle. For that reason, it is the "mother" of all Aikido techniques.

The pin is only a small part of the whole teaching of ikkyo. There is so much more to ikkyo than just a pin on the ground.

Agreed on all points, except ikkyo without a pin is an ikkyo-based technique, but not fully ikkyo, in my mind. Again, others might view it differently, but I suspect I am not the only one.

tuturuhan 03-08-2008 05:17 PM

Re: Contact
 
Quote:

Stefan Stenudd wrote: (Post 201206)
I love it. That is optimal contact. I guess you can compare it to training in water. The atmosphere is so thick with contact that any movement is felt throughout.

Stefan,

The attacker, the uke, the floor, the ceiling, the walls and the air molecules that connect us all within the confines of the room.

My belief, my search is that in such a connectedness, "blending, grasping and manipulating" goes beyond the simple passing of the hand, the hip or the shoulder. It begins with the intention of the mind, with the idea that the mind can be extended beyond the boundaries of the body...thus internal energy becoming external energy.

Any thoughts?

Sincerely Joseph

Stefan Stenudd 03-08-2008 06:03 PM

Re: Contact
 
Quote:

Joseph Arriola wrote: (Post 201223)
It begins with the intention of the mind, with the idea that the mind can be extended beyond the boundaries of the body...thus internal energy becoming external energy.

Absolutely. It seems that I should hesitate to mention ki on this forum, but that's what I would call it ;)

Bodily contact alone is of less importance. The moment of contact is when uke's intention is directed toward tori, and it is kept even when there is no physical contact, because of intentions meeting.

I find that more and more through the years I focus on intentions in my aikido, and less on the physcial mechanics.

About internal and external energy, it's all the same to me - the energy is the same, anyway, wherever it is moving.

eyrie 03-08-2008 08:51 PM

Re: Ikkyo
 
Quote:

Nick Pittson wrote: (Post 201211)
Agreed on all points, except ikkyo without a pin is an ikkyo-based technique, but not fully ikkyo, in my mind. Again, others might view it differently, but I suspect I am not the only one.

Fair enough. To each their own. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but rather where and how I differ. The difference is, I don't see ikkyo (or any other aikido waza) as "technique" - i.e. something you do to someone. Rather, it is a sort of "framework" thru which the base principles can be explored. There are many ways to do ikkyo - as evidenced by Stefan's exposition. But they're all based on the same principle - the circle inside the square.

Personally speaking, the pin is the least of my considerations for what "makes" it a "technique" - since the pin is merely a temporary restraint... long enough for you to get the hojo cord (or if your prefer - cuffs) out or the tanto to make them a new smile from ear to ear. Hardly a requisite for basing the entire premise of a technique on a temporary restraint, in my book. To me that's clearly missing the forest for the trees.

But, as I said... to each their own.


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