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-   -   ikkyo vs ikkajo (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13842)

Fred L 01-22-2008 12:11 PM

ikkyo vs ikkajo
 
Is there an actual difference in translation between ikkajo and ikkyo? ( I know that they refer to the same thing, I just don't understand why different styles use the different terms.)

thanks!

Fred

Ron Tisdale 01-22-2008 12:39 PM

Re: ikkyo vs ikkajo
 
Hi Fred,

I've been told that ikkajo is simply an older way of saying ikkyo. It's use is probably indicative of an instructor who comes from a lineage that goes back to pre-war aikido. Or Daito ryu. You should understand that in Daito ryu, Ikkajo is a collection of waza, not just a single technique. And many of the pre-war students of Ueshiba Sensei recieved catalogues of waza as their "certificates" from Ueshiba...and these catalogues were of Daito ryu waza, and were written in a format that matched Daito ryu licenses (like the Hiden Mokuroku).

Some of our posters that are into linguistics can probably give a more complete answer from that perspective.

Best,
Ron

Chris Parkerson 01-22-2008 12:58 PM

Re: ikkyo vs ikkajo
 
I studied daito under three different teachers, None for more than two years at a stay. What I say in the following could be quite wrong. It comes from the accumilative memory of these experiences.

Ikajo, Nikajo, Sankajo, Yonkajo, Gokajo all refer to techniques originally designed to defeat grabs against one's jo staff.

Translated to empty hand combatives, one's forearm can relax (with form) and the bone of the forearm acts with the same leverage of the lifeless wood (the Jo). Of course, Ikkyo is performed in the same way and Ron's history of the terms stands firm.

Fred L 01-22-2008 01:41 PM

Re: ikkyo vs ikkajo
 
that's pretty interesting. It would make sense that a jo technique would have "jo" in the corresponding name.

Fred

Ron Tisdale 01-22-2008 01:50 PM

Re: ikkyo vs ikkajo
 
Uh, different JO I believe...as in different kanji. Peter or Josh or Jun could confirm.

What you see in the waza name is KAJO which, I believe, corresponds roughly to "catalogue"...

Best,
Ron (not a Japanese language scholar, and I certainly don't play one on tv :D )

NagaBaba 01-22-2008 01:54 PM

Re: ikkyo vs ikkajo
 
Ikkyo is upgraded version of ikkajo ;p and is much more efficient on the street.

Matthieu 01-22-2008 01:55 PM

Re: ikkyo vs ikkajo
 
You should read Jun's answer in this thread:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=571

Ron Tisdale 01-22-2008 01:57 PM

Re: ikkyo vs ikkajo
 
Quote:

Ikkyo is upgraded version of ikkajo ;p and is much more efficient on the street.
:eek: :D Smile when you say that Mr. S! :D

Oops, you did!

Hope you and the wife are well, and training hard. Long time no type!

B,
R

ChrisMoses 01-22-2008 02:07 PM

Re: ikkyo vs ikkajo
 
Quote:

Chris Parkerson wrote: (Post 197750)
I studied daito under three different teachers, None for more than two years at a stay. What I say in the following could be quite wrong. It comes from the accumilative memory of these experiences.

Ikajo, Nikajo, Sankajo, Yonkajo, Gokajo all refer to techniques originally designed to defeat grabs against one's jo staff.

If that's what you got from your Daito Ryu teachers, you should get your money back. That's totally wrong. What Ron said. Which lines did you study?

Chris Parkerson 01-22-2008 02:40 PM

Re: ikkyo vs ikkajo
 
As I said, I could be totally wrong.

Probably a creation in my own mind rather than something I had asked about. I have not been that interested in minutae regarding the art as much as practicing the art.

By the way, my money was well spent.

Fred L 01-22-2008 02:46 PM

Re: ikkyo vs ikkajo
 
Jun's thread seems to answer it...

Fred

odudog 01-23-2008 06:50 PM

Re: ikkyo vs ikkajo
 
The suffix: kajo is a counter. It means an article, an item, a provision, itemize. In Japanese, they have counters attached to the end of numbers to let you know what type of thing is being talked about: ippon {1 long thing}, isatsu {1 volume thing: book, mag} Dont' forget that in the old days they would mix up stuff on purpose to hide the true meaning of what was being talked about. Only the insiders were prevy to the lingo.

Peter Goldsbury 01-24-2008 05:32 AM

Re: ikkyo vs ikkajo
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote: (Post 197754)
Uh, different JO I believe...as in different kanji. Peter or Josh or Jun could confirm.

What you see in the waza name is KAJO which, I believe, corresponds roughly to "catalogue"...

Best,
Ron (not a Japanese language scholar, and I certainly don't play one on tv :D )

I have the benefit of a 'captive' audience of Japanese (and Chinese) graduate students whom I can ask. I also consulted my Japanese monolingual dictionaries, especially the 13-volume Kokugo Dai-Kanwa Jiten.

The Japanese students were unanimous that kajou 箇条 was no longer used in everyday Japanese. Basically, it is a combination of 箇, which is a counter for inanimate objects, and 条, which has a variety of meanings within the general range of article (as in a legal contract), line, clause. So 条件 are conditions (jouken), as in 'I will agree, subject to the following conditions' (which are then specified).

The Chinese students all agreed that kajou had a different kanji in Chinese 個条: the Japanese combination of ka and jou was not used in modern Chinese.

There are three other combination using the Japanese kanji for ka. These are kagetsu (counted month), kanen (counted year), and kasho (counted place). However, I have only seen the last one in ordinary Japanese. Kasho means place, as in 'From Hiroshima to Miyoshi there are roadworks in three kasho' 箇所.

The two characters in question 箇 and 個 can be read as either KA or KO and both are counters of inanimate objects. So the second one is combined with the character for person to mean, individual 個人.

I hope that this casts enough darkness on the issue. However, I can see why Kisshomaru Ueshiba decided to change the prewar counters completely. 一教 (ikkyou) etc represented a major break with prewar tradition.

DH 01-24-2008 07:29 AM

Re: ikkyo vs ikkajo
 
Maybe it makes more sense to consider it in light of the history behind its use in Aikido, not in some generic sense of the word in China or Japan..
Ueshiba was a Daito ryu teacher. When he opened his first Dojo he taught Shirata, Shioda, Inue, Mochizuki etc, out of the hiden mokuroku of Daito ryu, and even passed them out to his early students as levels of grading. In fact all said they were learning Daito ryu aikijujutsu up to the war. The mokuroku is a catalogue of 118 techniques divided into sections or kajo; ikkajo, nikkajo sankajo etc.
In Aikido's case ikkyo is a single technique with variations of doing "it." Ikkajo is 30 techniques with a myriad of variations of doing them. So, you were taught Ikkajo, nikkajo, sankajo, yonkajo, gokajo. No small stretch to see that Aikido has; ikkyyo, nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokyo. All single techniques based off of his Daito ryu teachings to his students when he simplified the art. This information is out there for anyone to read.
Cheers
Dan

Blake Holtzen 01-24-2008 11:42 AM

Re: ikkyo vs ikkajo
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 197869)
Maybe it makes more sense to consider it in light of the history behind its use in Aikido, not in some generic sense of the word in China or Japan..
Ueshiba was a Daito ryu teacher. When he opened his first Dojo he taught Shirata, Shioda, Inue, Mochizuki etc, out of the hiden mokuroku of Daito ryu, and even passed them out to his early students as levels of grading. In fact all said they were learning Daito ryu aikijujutsu up to the war. The mokuroku is a catalogue of 118 techniques divided into sections or kajo; ikkajo, nikkajo sankajo etc.
In Aikido's case ikkyo is a single technique with variations of doing "it." Ikkajo is 30 techniques with a myriad of variations of doing them. So, you were taught Ikkajo, nikkajo, sankajo, yonkajo, gokajo. No small stretch to see that Aikido has; ikkyyo, nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokyo. All single techniques based off of his Daito ryu teachings to his students when he simplified the art. This information is out there for anyone to read.
Cheers
Dan

Hello all,

So, this makes me wonder if Aikido, as Ueshiba taught it, was a distillation or dilution of Takeda's Daito Ryu AJJ ?

It would be interesting to see when the change in name occured. Was it Ueshiba's pre-war Daito Ryu/Aikido or postwar Aikido when Ueshiba changed the name of the technique, possibly to distance himself and his art from DR AJJ ?

Take Care

-Blake

ChrisMoses 01-24-2008 11:49 AM

Re: ikkyo vs ikkajo
 
Quote:

Blake Holtzen wrote: (Post 197899)
Hello all,

So, this makes me wonder if Aikido, as Ueshiba taught it, was a distillation or dilution of Takeda's Daito Ryu AJJ ?

It would be interesting to see when the change in name occured. Was it Ueshiba's pre-war Daito Ryu/Aikido or postwar Aikido when Ueshiba changed the name of the technique, possibly to distance himself and his art from DR AJJ ?

Take Care

-Blake

He didn't change the name, his students did as they tried to make sense of what the heck he was doing. Similar process in Daito Ryu around the same time.

odudog 01-24-2008 05:36 PM

Re: ikkyo vs ikkajo
 
The way Osensei taught the art was changed before the WWII. I can't quote you the exact year but he did change what he was doing. He added more circles, changed the mindset, and through out some stuff that he determined to be too dangerous. The name Aikido was not chosen by his students but by the Dai Nihon Butokukai.

KamiKaze_Evolution 07-24-2008 07:58 AM

Re: ikkyo vs ikkajo
 
ikkyo = 一教
ikkajo = 一か条

in japanese character

Josh Reyer 07-24-2008 10:53 AM

Re: ikkyo vs ikkajo
 
Quote:

Anthony Wong wrote: (Post 212092)
ikkyo = 一教
ikkajo = 一か条

in japanese character

Actually, "ikkajo" could be that or any of the following:
一ヶ条
一ヵ条
一箇条
一個条
一カ条

No difference in meaning, just alternate ways to write the "ka" counter. 一ヶ条 is the most common.

Steven 07-24-2008 12:44 PM

Re: ikkyo vs ikkajo
 
FWIW:

In the Yoshinkan training book that I have that was put out by our honbu dojo when under the direction of Mr. Kyoichi Inoue, Ikkajo is written 一ヶ条.

Aikibu 07-24-2008 01:26 PM

Re: ikkyo vs ikkajo
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 197755)
Ikkyo is upgraded version of ikkajo ;p and is much more efficient on the street.

Dear Wildman of the North,

Would you kindly support this statement with some statistics and/or facts? :)

Perhaps if you feel inclined you could start another thread on the Technical Differences between Ikkyo is and Ikkajo and why one is more efficient that the other "on the street". :)

William Hazen

KamiKaze_Evolution 07-25-2008 08:10 AM

Re: ikkyo vs ikkajo
 
Sorry regard my mistake, OSU!

Dillon 07-25-2008 09:14 AM

Re: ikkyo vs ikkajo
 
I though that the kajo was a counter as described above, while the suffix -kyo meant "teaching." In my understanding, ~kyo has almost a religious connotation (bukyo=teachings of the buddha,for example) so the idea with ending the counters with ~kyo indicated that more was being taught than just techniques.

That said, I'm no scholar, and this is just what I put together when musing on the subject.

eyrie 07-25-2008 05:38 PM

Re: ikkyo vs ikkajo
 
You should read Stan Pranin's interview with Noriaki Inoue in "Aikido Masters"... although Inoue doesn't give an indication of why/how it ended up being -kyo in Aikido, but it provides a context as to how it became -kajo in Sokaku Takeda's Daito-ryu.


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