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-   -   Did I create a new counter? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13581)

Shany 11-20-2007 04:59 AM

Did I create a new counter?
 
Well, you know how is it that sometimes when you study aikido, it comes a time when you just blurt something out of an existing technique and you kinda 'create' on the fly a new one?

well, I really don't know if this one exists or not, you can write your thoughts here.
This counter is actually a counter to a katate dori, tsuki attack.

Attack: (Gyaku Hanmi)
Me: grasp katate (grap the wrist) of the uke (with left hand)
Me: tsuki attack (either a punch/knife) the stomech of the uke with the right hand.
Uke: throw away my tsuki attack with a side move using his hand as a defense
Uke: goes into an irimi-nage move (now that my back is wide open)

Counter: (while uke is trying to irimi-nage me)
Me: fast/hard Elbow strike to the ribs (Uke is stunned)
Me: using my left hand (still holding the katate), I move on into Sankyu position.
Me: using the right hand, i tight the Sankyu and perfom it fully.

I have no idea if is already done, but I love it when it comes with divine interference :D :circle: :square: :triangle:

SeiserL 11-20-2007 06:57 AM

Re: Did I create a new counter?
 
Quote:

Shany Golan wrote: (Post 194339)
I have no idea if is already done, but I love it when it comes with divine interference :D :circle: :square: :triangle:

IMHO, we tend to rediscover the old rather than create anything new. Or maybe that's just me.

Dieter Haffner 11-20-2007 07:01 AM

Re: Did I create a new counter?
 
Just because you have never seen it or never heard of it, doesn't mean it did not already exist.

Pierre Kewcharoen 11-20-2007 07:10 AM

Re: Did I create a new counter?
 
Technically if you make and create your own fighting style then I would say you made something new. You could call it shany jutsu

CitoMaramba 11-20-2007 07:29 AM

Re: Did I create a new counter?
 
I remember being taught this kaeshi-waza combination (sankyo as a counter to irimi-nage) when I visited Saotome Sensei's Shobukan Dojo in Washington DC. That was back in 1995.
If you came up with it spontaneously then I believe that is what O-Sensei referred to as Takemusu Aiki

Amir Krause 11-20-2007 08:37 AM

Re: Did I create a new counter?
 
Am I the only one who can not understant anything so technical without a movie (or set of pictures) unless I wrote it?

I do not understand which hand you grasp?
Which hand does Uke use to block your attack, where is he moving to?
From which direction does he enter for Irimi-Nage? Which variation (there are a few)?
What should he do with the other hand (why leave it?)?

Anyhow, it is nice to see people can learn to identify new opportunities for techniques. I would consider such a thing to be a sign of advancing. But I would be careful of calling any combinatoin new, most people can not recal all the combinations they have learned\seen ...

Amir

Dieter Haffner 11-20-2007 09:59 AM

Re: Did I create a new counter?
 
Quote:

Amir Krause wrote: (Post 194356)
Am I the only one who can not understant anything so technical without a movie (or set of pictures) unless I wrote it?

The counter is set to 2 :D

Shany 11-20-2007 10:03 AM

Re: Did I create a new counter?
 
"Just because you have never seen it or never heard of it, doesn't mean it did not already exist."

true, as i stated in my post, (i don't know if it exists). but i rather share it, its what makes us continue develop ourselfs,and others.

Lynn Seiser,
hehe yeah could be! you never know. but i like the way it comes out of the bloom :)

Amir,
hmm, if me and you were to stand infront of each other,in gyaku hanmi position.
1. your right foot is infront, and my left foot is infront
2. your right hand 'waits' for the attaker
3. i grasp your right hand with my left hand
4. i attack your stomech with my right hand (punch/knife)
5. you block with your left hand (throwing my punch inward) - from your point of view, that would be to the right
6. you are going into irimi-nage
7. with my hand that you just blocked me, i blow and attack into your ribs
8.with my left hand (that is grasping your right wrist), i move it down into sankyo position
9. move my right hand into the sankyo grip and perform sankyo.

Nothing special in the end, its good to make kaeshi waza on the fly.
and better to share (even if its already exists!) :)

James Davis 11-20-2007 11:03 AM

Re: Did I create a new counter?
 
Sounds to me like the technique found you.;)

charyuop 11-20-2007 02:38 PM

Re: Did I create a new counter?
 
Hee hee Amir, I am with you 100%. I re read it 10 times, draw some stick men (that's my skill lol) and I still don't see the elbow strike to the ribs. In my drawings he should turn almost 180 to hit him with the punching hand and if he has the chance to do that I guess it was a poor Iriminage....puzzled....

CitoMaramba 11-21-2007 12:40 AM

Re: Did I create a new counter?
 
I think they're asking you for a video, Shany, hehehe.. :D

Amir Krause 11-21-2007 01:34 AM

Re: Did I create a new counter?
 
Quote:

Shany Golan wrote: (Post 194370)

Amir,
hmm, if me and you were to stand infront of each other,in gyaku hanmi position.
1. your right foot is infront, and my left foot is infront
2. your right hand 'waits' for the attaker
3. i grasp your right hand with my left hand
4. i attack your stomech with my right hand (punch/knife)
5. you block with your left hand (throwing my punch inward) - from your point of view, that would be to the right
6. you are going into irimi-nage
7. with my hand that you just blocked me, i blow and attack into your ribs
8.with my left hand (that is grasping your right wrist), i move it down into sankyo position
9. move my right hand into the sankyo grip and perform sankyo.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I think I understood the situation now, and your Keashi waza. Thanks

For me, it does seem new, or rather, of the type of things I would not bother remembering afterwards (If I ever did something like that during Randori). Simply because Uke response in this case seems extremely limited and impractical to me:
a) I did not get from your description any Kuzushi from Uke, nor any attempt to blend, nor move out of the line of the attack? He blocked your hand once – you can simply strike him again (A knife opens more options).
b) Uke let you remain in control of the hand? No wrist manipulation to turn the tables?
c) I would not try to Irimi-Nage a stable person going inwards, with a hand he has control over. If he is only as strong as me, I would be unlikely to succeed.

Each of these steps would have made your response much more difficult.

Of course, I might still not grasp your explanation (in my case, I might even come over and see, someday, instead of a video).

In any case, Kudus and compliments for responding in time, and intuitively, to Uke failure. That is not a simple step to go over (you did not write how long you have been training).

Amir

Michael Douglas 11-21-2007 11:03 AM

Re: Did I create a new counter?
 
I too am slightly confused about the irimi nage part.
I can picture all the movements (my picture might not be Shany's) but from the point of parrying the first thrust I can't see any flow to irimi nage. How is the gripped right hand used? How is the knife-arm controlled? Where are the feet and torsos at the time of the elbow-strike and what is Nage's left hand doing?-I'm thinking it's going to the back of Uke's neck but this seems slow.
Quote:

Shany Golan wrote: (Post 194370)
hmm, if me and you were to stand infront of each other,in gyaku hanmi position.
1. your right foot is infront, and my left foot is infront
2. your right hand 'waits' for the attaker
3. i grasp your right hand with my left hand
4. i attack your stomech with my right hand (punch/knife)
5. you block with your left hand (throwing my punch inward) - from your point of view, that would be to the right
6. you are going into irimi-nage
7. with my hand that you just blocked me, i blow and attack into your ribs
8.with my left hand (that is grasping your right wrist), i move it down into sankyo position
9. move my right hand into the sankyo grip and perform sankyo.


Shany 11-21-2007 01:57 PM

Re: Did I create a new counter?
 
mmm hehehe i'll try my best stick man animation :D hopefully that will help to understand it better :p


Demetrio Cereijo 11-21-2007 02:16 PM

Re: Did I create a new counter?
 
Something like this but with some atemi (step 7) before?

http://www.aikidotakemusu.com/IMG/jpg/kaeshi_1_1.jpg
http://www.aikidotakemusu.com/IMG/jpg/kaeshi_1_2.jpg
http://www.aikidotakemusu.com/IMG/jpg/kaeshi_1_3.jpg

If so, this kaeshi is a bit old.

Dieter Haffner 11-22-2007 02:28 AM

Re: Did I create a new counter?
 
Looks like "aihanmi katatedori uchikaiten sankyo".
Except that I have learned it with uke grabbing first, tori making tenkan to take over the grab, uke being 'pulled' back in front of tori. From there on it is the same movement as you have drawn.

Thanks for taking the time to draw it up.

Amir Krause 11-22-2007 04:25 AM

Re: Did I create a new counter?
 
Quote:

Shany Golan wrote: (Post 194518)
mmm hehehe i'll try my best stick man animation :D hopefully that will help to understand it better :p


Wow, Barvo for the graphics - simly great.

Well, it is sort of like I imagined in my last post. And so I can only repeat my comments:

Quote:

For me, it does seem new, or rather, of the type of things I would not bother remembering afterwards (If I ever did something like that during Randori). Simply because Uke response in this case seems extremely limited and impractical to me:
a) I did not get from your description any Kuzushi from Uke, nor any attempt to blend, nor move out of the line of the attack? He blocked your hand once -- you can simply strike him again (A knife opens more options).
b) Uke let you remain in control of the hand? No wrist manipulation to turn the tables?
c) I would not try to Irimi-Nage a stable person going inwards, with a hand he has control over. If he is only as strong as me, I would be unlikely to succeed.

Each of these steps would have made your response much more difficult.

In any case, Kudus and compliments for responding in time, and intuitively, to Uke failure. That is not a simple step to go over (you did not write how long you have been training).
Amir

Shany 11-22-2007 05:29 AM

Re: Did I create a new counter?
 
Quote:

Amir Krause wrote: (Post 194554)
Wow, Barvo for the graphics - simly great.

Well, it is sort of like I imagined in my last post. And so I can only repeat my comments:

Amir

For me, it does seem new, or rather, of the type of things I would not bother remembering afterwards (If I ever did something like that during Randori). Simply because Uke response in this case seems extremely limited and impractical to me:
a) I did not get from your description any Kuzushi from Uke, nor any attempt to blend, nor move out of the line of the attack? He blocked your hand once -- you can simply strike him again (A knife opens more options).
b) Uke let you remain in control of the hand? No wrist manipulation to turn the tables?
c) I would not try to Irimi-Nage a stable person going inwards, with a hand he has control over. If he is only as strong as me, I would be unlikely to succeed.

Each of these steps would have made your response much more difficult.

In any case, Kudus and compliments for responding in time, and intuitively, to Uke failure. That is not a simple step to go over (you did not write how long you have been training).

Well, you can say that during randori / test / real attacks on the streets, a lot of techniques will not come by so easily (aka: remembering) thus you must always to count on your sub-conscious mind (intuition) there for, if you train more about what you will do in randori you'll probably use them.

if you look in the web, for aikido demonstrations of randoris you will notice that, most of the uke's techniques are repeatable throughout the videos (kotegaeshi, irimi-nage, koshi-nage..etc) not much, and yet they all do it over and over and over, is it because training is focused only on the basics?

coming up with your own ideas (even if they exist, you wouldn't know it at the time) lets you think of situations at different aspect, this what i think (on top of basic/advanced techniques) what makes it worthwhile. blending and executing techniques with your own mind.

a) the Kuzushi (unbalancing) is the nage's part, not the ukes, since I attack you, i first must grasp your hand, thus i lost sort of balance. there is no tenkan performed here (you could, but that would lead to a different technique)

b) yes, if the uke to use wrist controls he would use a different techniqe (using tenkan or not). there are situations where ur hand is grasped (stationary)

c) once u block his punch/knife attack, his hand goes inward and you go fast into irimi nage

well, i guess its all part of learning stuff, either from the forum, or by your self, and as i said, sharing is the key element in aikido! why hide when u can share. and for your question, i've been aikido practicing almost a year now.

Amir Krause 11-22-2007 08:59 AM

Re: Did I create a new counter?
 
Quote:

Shany Golan wrote: (Post 194555)
i've been aikido practicing almost a year now.

Getting to find your own intuitive responses after only one year of practice is very nice. Great going!
Guess I no longer remember that phase in which everything looked new :(

Quote:

Shany Golan wrote: (Post 194555)
Well, you can say that during randori / test / real attacks on the streets, a lot of techniques will not come by so easily (aka: remembering) thus you must always to count on your sub-conscious mind (intuition) there for, if you train more about what you will do in randori you'll probably use them.

Indeed, practicing Aikido should be done mostly on the intuitive level. I remember one specific exercise in Japan, in which we were to move into contact and just respond, our Shihan was observing us and each time told one of us he should perform a technique, in 80% of the cases that person failed as the other one reacted better spontaneously or did some Keashi-waza immediately.

Quote:

Shany Golan wrote: (Post 194555)
Coming up with your own ideas (even if they exist, you wouldn't know it at the time) lets you think of situations at different aspect, this what i think (on top of basic/advanced techniques) what makes it worthwhile. blending and executing techniques with your own mind.

I have seen many beginners freeze the first time they are faced with the chaos of free-play Randori. It takes months for them to start responding the way they are taught. Starting to think on your so early is very good.

Quote:

Shany Golan wrote: (Post 194555)
if you look in the web, for aikido demonstrations of randoris you will notice that, most of the uke's techniques are repeatable throughout the videos (kotegaeshi, irimi-nage, koshi-nage..etc) not much, and yet they all do it over and over and over, is it because training is focused only on the basics?

I can not answer for others.

I can say that we always work much more on the basics, and practice the same dozen or so techniques (and rather 2-3 specific variations of each) over 90% of our Kata\Waza practice time, this holds true even during Yundasha practice. One always finds new things in those same techniques and it is easier to hone the mai\timing\distance skill this way.
I should mention we do not limit the situations, and often practice the same techniques, or some variations of it, in multiple situations during the same lesson. Given the variety of possible attacks (we often start in some hand grasp situation continue to shomen and then to punching attacks), it is never boring.

I would also like to note from my own experience, in free-play Randori (generally it is both sides attack however they like, whenever they like, thus giving the other opportunities to practice, and each may perform Keashi waza at will). I typically find myself applying a set of something like 3-4 techniques for one Uke, and when we change the Uke, I will change the set (or part of it), as though each Uke invites a different set of responses.

My previous technical remarks tried to explain the mistakes Uke did in his response, which have enabled the Keashi-Waza. After-all, had Uke done everything correctly and in a timely manner, it would have been impossible to reverse the situation.

BR
Amir

Michael Douglas 11-24-2007 11:50 AM

Re: Did I create a new counter?
 
Great sick-man animation!
Unfortunately I understood correctly up to the point the punch is parried.
After that I don't understand the intention and action of the Nage.
I'm starting to think iriminage from there is silly.

Shany 11-24-2007 03:14 PM

Re: Did I create a new counter?
 
Quote:

Michael Douglas wrote: (Post 194662)
Great sick-man animation!
Unfortunately I understood correctly up to the point the punch is parried.
After that I don't understand the intention and action of the Nage.
I'm starting to think iriminage from there is silly.

Michael, the action of the nage was to tsuki atack the uke, the uke was to block and iriminage the nage. no so hard to understand, i know the stick animation isn't the best, but it shows the flow somehow :)

Amir Krause
"Guess I no longer remember that phase in which everything looked new":
I think you're thinking too linear when practicing aikido, that's not bad either, it's good if you're doing what being told over and over. after long period of years (u said u train equal or more than 9 years?) you're probably doing things automatically and look at aikido as a way to enjoy life, healthy and relax doing it, which is personally I think a good thing. I would start (on top the regular training) to think 'out of the box' and see what can be done with the basic tools set that you already own.

I usually, play with a uke sometimes after regular training time in the dojo, it's that time that ur brain is all running and thinking and u have the eagerness to try the stuff you learned!

I for one does it while practicing, i find it fun and intuitive.

Quote:

I have seen many beginners freeze the first time they are faced with the chaos of free-play Randori. It takes months for them to start responding the way they are taught. Starting to think on your so early is very good.
I love training randori like, where 3 persons on you and they are attacking, true its harder to come-up with advance techniques or fast moves when you're doing the same basics all over again and again each practice.
that's why I said earlier, do a off-mat (after class) session with your friends, don't finish class and go home, stay around 15-30mins more with someone and have fun practicing and attacking.

Quote:

My previous technical remarks tried to explain the mistakes Uke did in his response, which have enabled the Keashi-Waza. After-all, had Uke done everything correctly and in a timely manner, it would have been impossible to reverse the situation.
Yes, this is true, i've had it too, my Sensei always had me check the positions of my hands for example if i've done shio-nage, that would not give the uke the oppertunity to perform kaeshi waza.

btw, can I ask, what is your current rank in aikido? not that i really think rank is anything but dividing student/teachers/guiders, but just for the curiosity.

Amir Krause 11-25-2007 04:59 AM

Re: Did I create a new counter?
 
Quote:

Shany Golan wrote: (Post 194669)
Amir Krause
"Guess I no longer remember that phase in which everything looked new":
I think you're thinking too linear when practicing aikido, that's not bad either, it's good if you're doing what being told over and over. after long period of years (u said u train equal or more than 9 years?)

I would start (on top the regular training) to think 'out of the box' and see what can be done with the basic tools set that you already own.

Shany,

As I wrote to you in my PM (about my experience in Aikido), I suspect we are at slightly different periods related to our learning. I have practiced most things so many times, when my Sensei pulls a "new" technique out of his hat, I find I remember it from his teaching it for several lessons a decade ago.

My view of "advanced techniques" is not the techniques we rarely do, but some technical variations we are doing frequently, yet I know those variations require exact timing or extremely high sensitivity to work on a non-cooperating Uke. Another thing I try to learn is to actually do things automatically, letting go and allowing the body to take the lead.

I have had my time of thinking "outside the box". Only to later realize, that at best I only rediscovered the wisdom my teacher was showing me in plain sight. This realization only grew, after I ventured to learn also with other teachers (and other M.A.) and have gained some experience.

Quote:

Shany Golan wrote: (Post 194669)
I love training randori like, where 3 persons on you and they are attacking, true its harder to come-up with advance techniques or fast moves when you're doing the same basics all over again and again each practice.

As I tried to imply, the common way for Randori (also called Kyoshi) in Korindo Aikido is different -- only two people, but each may do whatever he wishes, whenever he wishes:
Punches of all types are encouraged as the main attack type,
Kicks are welcome for advanced students who are willing to take the fall,
Counters and technical changes in a flow are expected above a certain level and allowed long before,
Only pure force resistance is discouraged, since it prohibits Uke from learning better solutions (be soft and counter) and does not teach one how to face a stronger person.

A Randori with multiple people attacking a single person is also practiced, though mostly at advanced levels (but not always). Again in these Randori, the common attacks are strikes and punches, and not grabs.

In both types of Randori, we would not expect a person of your experience to move fast. We would expect you to move out of the line of attack (at low to medium speed), and to be able to do some techniques, some of the times.

Quote:

Shany Golan wrote: (Post 194669)
that's why I said earlier, do a off-mat (after class) session with your friends, don't finish class and go home, stay around 15-30mins more with someone and have fun practicing and attacking.

I fondly remember the times in my life when I could and did such things, including going out to a picnic with a friend and practicing Buki (weapons - mostly Jo and BokKen, and Bo, though we have tried a few other things in which our knowledge is less extensive such as Kodachi, Nito and Naginata) Kata and Randori or coming an hour early to practice on my own, if only doing Tsubri, one side of a weapons Kata and some Tai-Sabaki.
These days, I often struggle just to arrive to practice on time, and I know that in a short while, even this would be a luxury (for a while, maybe even a couple of years). But, I know Aikido will always be a part of my life, and I will continue to practice, just like everything, else, the practice of Aikido in life has its own cycles.

Quote:

Shany Golan wrote: (Post 194669)
you're probably doing things automatically and look at aikido as a way to enjoy life, healthy and relax doing it, which is personally I think a good thing.

I practice because it is fun, even after all this time. I can still sense myself growing, developing and learning. I love it.

Quote:

Shany Golan wrote: (Post 194669)
Quote:

My previous technical remarks tried to explain the mistakes Uke did in his response, which have enabled the Keashi-Waza. After-all, had Uke done everything correctly and in a timely manner, it would have been impossible to reverse the situation.

Yes, this is true, i've had it too, my Sensei always had me check the positions of my hands for example if i've done shio-nage, that would not give the uke the oppertunity to perform kaeshi waza.

Keashi-Waza starts from an error on Uke part. When trying to analyze it, one must examine what actions on Uke side created which openings. Thus one learns to perform his basic techniques better, and pay attention to the details. It also teaches us of the flow of initiative, and how to control it.

Amir


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